Hello

My family and myself are keen to introduce a puppy into our family and we are at the moment busy doing our research into various breeds .I'm very interested in cocker spaniels , i have also admired golden retrievers but have read various articles about temperament issues within both these breeds , i also like cavalier king Charles but have been put off with the health issues.
My family consists of myself, my husband and our 7 yr old son and our cat . I've been advised by the vet that as long as introduction are made slowly cat and dog should be ok together. We'd like a calm ,good  natured, loving family pet that enjoys regular family walks and play time but also chilling out at home . Possibly asking to much ?
We are novice dog owners I'm very willing to put in the time and go to training classes etc .

I've been doing my research and I'm finding lots of conflicting information.  We have ruled out the working cockers  I think as they seem to be happier working type- although we are quite active i wonder if a working dog would be to much of a handful. I am unsure if a retriever would be to much to handle for a novice owner in terms of size and exuberance?

We also heard very worrying stories about about the so called cocker rage and there seems to be conflicting reports as to wether it still exist or if it's confined to certain  colours .I've  also read it's a problem for some golden dogs of different breeds like retrievers and labs.   I'd be very grateful for your advice. The more research I do the more confused I get !  Our local vet owns a show cocker and advised us that although they can be lovely dogs they are prone to nervousness which can lead to them being  snappy . Any advice would be most welcome.

Thankyou so much for your time .

Catherine

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

"Rage" is characterised by unprovoked, unpredictable aggression, and a dog that appears to not know where it is or what it's doing (almost in a trance, glazed expression), and "snaps out of it" after an attack.  Genuine cases of this are rare and if they do happen, are down to medical reasons - this can be epilepsy, hypothyroidism, a brain tumour or even food intolerances (had a case of that last year).

Very often what is described as 'rage' in cockers is actually resource guarding, and often it has become harder to predict because the owners have punished the dog for growling (communication of discomfort), so the dog has started to skip to a snap or bite.  But because of the 'rage' stigma, often that is diagnosed without the dog even being seen and assessed, simply because it's a cocker.
They are prone to resource guarding as a breed so the right handling from the start is important (not taking things from them without swaps, training a good 'leave', sufficient mental stimulation etc).  The communication issue can happen with any dog though, and not just with resource guarding - I've seen a husky/malamute crossed diagnosed with it and in reality, he was under severe stress due to inappropriate living situation and handling, and he had been punished for communicating his unease by growling and showing his teeth.  So he skipped to biting.  The only case I've seen that comes close to the true "rage", if there is such a thing, is the above case of food intolerances and that was in a shih tzu/lhasa cross!

In general temperament terms, I think a golden would probably be better suited to your requirements but they can be a handful as pups sometimes, as they love everybody.  But calm, consistent training will win through, as with any dog.  I would do your research and meet dogs from various lines to find the temperament you want.  I know one absolute loony golden who has been very hard work for his owner to raise, and the entire litter were the same.  Cockers can be lovely little dogs, and taught to chill, but on the whole I find them much busier than goldens.  Working type cockers do need a lot of input as they still have that drive to do a job all day.  They can be very rewarding pets, but take a lot of work to meet their physical and mental needs (mental mainly, they are very smart little dogs).

Healthwise both breeds have their issues as all breeds do, so again, research is key, as is finding a breeder who not only does all the health tests (not just what the KC asks for, but all available), but who also acts according to the results.  No point finding out a dog has a high hip score if you're going to ignore it and breed from them anyway!

Thankyou very much for your advice  , it's much harder deciding on a breed than I anticipated.  We'll continue our research . My husband's quite keen on the sight hounds particularly  whippets , which seem to have  lovely  temperament but not great of leash  , can chase.  Lots to think about . But thankyou for your advice  on balance I think maybe a cocker wouldn't be a good choice for  us .   I've  also heard some retrievers can have temperament  problems , although the ones I've  seen all seem so gentle  .  I think it's back to the drawing board !

Whatever breed you decide upon, visit the breeders and try to assess the breeders own dogs for temperament as this is something that is largely inherited. My last golden retriever didn't have the best of temperaments and didn't like other dogs at all, but all my others have had wonderful temperaments and have been very trustworthy. I wouldn't say there is a particular problem with poor temperament or any indication of 'rage' with well bred goldens
I spent quite a bit of time speaking to and visiting breeders before getting my current golden, I wanted to meet their dogs as well as the breeders. The research paid off and I have a dog who is very friendly, gentle and rarely even barks apart from a bark or two to warn us of something she feels is suspicious going on in the fields behind the house. Her sire is also used to father puppies used in the guide dog breeding program so I knew there was a high chance of having a well tempered dog.

If you do decide a GR is for you think about what colour you would like as they can range from a light cream right through to a very deep gold, and whether a working bred or a show bred golden may suit. Working bred goldens from some kennels can be very hot, but many aren't and are highly trainable. Or some breeders are breeding what is called dual purpose bred dogs, a mixture of working and show lines giving a dog that looks like a GR should look, but are still able to do the job they were developed to do.

> not great of leash  , can chase.

They can be trained

> My husband's quite keen on the sight hounds particularly  whippets ,

I would have thought that this would be an ideal choice.  As Lexy points out - they are trainable.  And you need to realise that, whatever your choice in breed, YOU will have to do the training.  Consistency is key.  And reward based training without doubt.  I always think that people new to dogs really need to join a reputable class.  As much to train you as to train the dog.  Whatever you want from the dog - make sure that both your husband and son use the same command.  If you confuse a dog you won't get far!

Sorry, I do mean husband and son to use the same command as you.

Don’t know how to quote, but yes agree with what Jodi said about temperament being inherited. I remember going to see our pup and being so bowled over by mum, how calm and gentle she was. She came over to us and sat without being prompted, laid her head on our legs as we knelt down etc.

And then the 5 week old pups did the same, granted yes they were charging about first but just naturally sat in front of us. After being told by so many people how ‘crazy’ cockers were, we came away feeling like we definitely found the right breeder and mum!

Of course as a puppy Penny did jump up at people and got excited, but always calmed and sat gently for children. Still now she can be running around out on walks but if a child goes over to pet her, she just sits down and lets them pet her, watched a toddler stroke her eyes last week and she didn’t react (obvs took her away at that point!) We don’t have children and have never specifically trained her to be gentle around children, but mum and pups were brought up in a house with kids.

Obviously my study of 1 isn’t exactly conclusive!! But firmly believe temperament was inherited and learnt from mum. I think it’s hard to say you’ll get great temperament by picking one breed over another, as so much comes down to the individual breeder/parents/environment.

Good luck in your search!

Have you considered vulnerable native breeds, as well as getting a lovely companion you would be giving the breed a chance of survival. How about Smooth collie for example, or if you like something hairy, an Otterhound? Both make loving family pets.

I met my first otterhound two weeks ago. She was absolutely gorgeous an so friendly. The owners said there are only three breeders actively breeding them now and the breed club is wondering whether to open the stud book and to introduce something like a foxhound into the gene pool to help prevent genetic difficulties due to inbreeding.

As much to train you as to train the dog

Used to run smallish pet training classes, had quite a few first time owners, one couple said 'you got the name wrong, its not  Dog Training Class - its Dog OWNERS Training Class, we need more training than the dogs do'

an Otterhound?

They do tend to have a particular odour though...........

I can endorse a Whippet BUT you do need to realise that this sighthound will be one step ahead of you and if they see something in the distance, they will be off.   Of course they can be trained but ............   You need a decent sized back garden, properly fenced so the Whippet has a safe area for a daily blast.    Off lead.   I'm afraid mine is lead only when out - she's inclined to be skittish (down to something that happened when she was a puppy) so although I'm pretty sure she'd stay with me, I can't be certain a spook won't have her taking off.   Although I knew a bit about them via a neighbour who had them, mine was still quite a culture shock as a puppy.  Her 'zoomies' had to be seen to be believed and our then elderly Basset took to his chair fast, when this happened.   Once I discovered the key to her brain, we were fine.   They don't smell, don't eat much and LOVE to cuddle.

I think your best bet would be to locate a decent breeder (best via the relevant Breed Club) and go see - talk to them and look at their ADULTS.   All puppies are cute, but they don't stay that way for long!

I do love the spaniels, I have 3 Cavaliers, and if you do your research and buy from a breeder who does all the specialist health testing you have as good as chance of getting a dog living healthily into its teens as any breed. Cockers are lovely too, they require a bit more grooming and are a 'busier' breed than the Cavalier, our American cocker was always on the move wanting to do stuff and didn't calm down until he was quite old. Whereas our Cavaliers are up for a good 2 or 3 hour walk (once adult and when fit), they are very trainable (we've had a Cavalier Obreedience team doing obedience at Crufts the past 3 years), but when I'm at home they will curl up on my lap and sleep for hours while I watch telly. They are usually fine with cats if brought up with them. Training classes are great, and as I said above, Cavaliers can learn to do loads of things, they're not just couch potatoes. Mine do shows, rally obedience, agility, HTM and so on. Cockers can do all these things too of course! And I know people who train sighthounds to do obedience and rally too.

I would say that if you're not in too much of a hurry, go to Discover Dogs in London which I think is October nowadays, where you can meet dogs and their owners from all breeds recognised by the KC and they will tell you all the pros and cons of living with them.

Meeting the breeds you are interested in is the important bit and ideally, NOT when the breeders have tempting puppies on the ground!  This I think is where most people go wrong.

Meeting dogs out and about is one thing - that will give you a cross-section of all the breeding that goes on, whereas if you buy a pup, you should be trying to find a breeder who aims for the best in everything (health and temperament both).  So by visiting dogs from well bred and chosen lines, you'll see how the dogs should be, rather than how the more common pet-bred/money-making-bred ones are.  Discover Dogs is a great idea!

Thankyou so much for all your advice  and  information.  I think cavalier king Charles sound adorable and ideal  but was concerned after reading a book which basically said that they are wonderful dogs but massive health issues at the moment.  But your advice is quite  reassuring  ,  could you possibly  reccomend any breeders for cavalier's?
There's a dog show coming up in July at Harwood house  Yorkshire, which is local to us and we planning to go . Meantime doing our research , reading up on crate traing etc and have been recommended local training classes.   Thanks

Welcome to the forum Catherine

Thankyou so much for all your advice  and  information.  I think cavalier king Charles sound adorable and ideal  but was concerned after reading a book which basically said that they are wonderful dogs but massive health issues at the moment.  But your advice is quite  reassuring  ,  could you possibly  reccomend any breeders for cavalier's?
There's a dog show coming up in July at Harwood house  Yorkshire, which is local to us and we planning to go . Meantime doing our research , reading up on crate traing etc and have been recommended local training classes.   Thanks

Thankyou

That sounds like Leeds champ show, there will be loads of breeds there to meet. Be aware that the different groups are on different days, so if you turn up on gundog day looking for Cavaliers and sighthounds you will be disappointed! Other than that, just don't try to chat to people or ruffle their dog's hair when they are preparing to go in the ring - most people will be very happy to chat to you afterwards!

www.thecavalierclub.co.uk is a good place to start for Cavaliers, they have a puppy register for various areas of the UK. You do need to ask if they do the specialist health testing for hearts, eyes, MRI scan, DNA testing, as sadly not all KC breeders do yet.

> My husband's quite keen on the sight hounds particularly  whippets , which seem to have  lovely  temperament but not great of leash  , can chase.

Certainly they can be trained, I walk with several different whippets off lead weekly.

I love whippets, they make great family pets, personally though I prefer a coated dog so my own silken windhounds are the perfect breed for me. Calm, loving, friendly, very quiet in the house, love to zoom outside then just amble along beside you, but not as fizzy as whippets can be and even more trainable. (I can call my silkens off chasing deer for example when none of the whippets I know could be recalled mid chase). Though a whippet would be easier to come by, you could wait a year or more for a silken. I have two cats and know of lots of sighthounds that live with cats peacefully.

In general gundogs do have great temperaments but you do have to put the work into them as puppies. My silkens even as pups will never run up to a stranger and jump all over them, I regularly get leapt upon by bouncy lab/goldie pups

> or if you like something hairy, an Otterhound?

I think they're vulnerable for very good reasons, they stink and they're not easy to train, scent hounds in general are so much harder to train reliable recalls than sighthounds - it's difficult to notice a scent before your dog does.

> ideally, NOT when the breeders have tempting puppies on the ground!  This I think is where most people go wrong.

My point!!   See the ADULTS ....... it's practically impossible to resist a puppy although I did, once, when looking for a Whippet.   I happened upon some people who had a litter - and couldn't get out of there fast enough, sadly.  Yes, I might have been tempted to take a puppy from them, just to get it out of the conditions.    But at the time, I wasn't prepared to do that.   Should have asked about them first - I found out later!!!

"it's difficult to notice a scent before your dog does. "  ..... and impossible, sometimes, I see what your sighthound is seeing until it's too late 

I could always 'see' when my scenthounds got a hot one - by their body language ( again).

Just want to reinforce what people have already said about meeting breeds you like, when there are no puppies around.
We decided we wanted a HPR for a first dog (which we were warned against), but only after we had been to about 5 different breeders, with no puppies, to be totally sure we liked the breed as adults.
It gave us a good idea on dog vs bitch, size ranges, temperaments etc. Also helped us to recognise a good breeder when we found them, with dogs of a temperament that worked for us.  We have now had multiple dogs from them and couldn't be happier with out choice of breed.

> But firmly believe temperament was inherited and learnt from mum. I think it’s hard to say you’ll get great temperament by picking one breed over another, as so much comes down to the individual breeder/parents/environment.

So agree, having now had 8 generations of my breed have found temperament and character quirks definitely inherited.  Many of mine have had the character traits from their sires, so no learned influence.  Traits often skip generations, so seeing as many relatives of your potential puppy is a good idea.

In Popular breeds where you get the range of very poor breeders, mainly the commercial element where little positive selection is practiced, through well meaning Pet breeding with little knowledge of the ancestors, though to excellent breeders that practice positive selection regarding the desired breed traits (breed standard) and working ability.

I would always contact the breed clubs to check if the breeders your considering are known, as they will know of many of the rogue breeders producing poor stock.

> Discover Dogs is a great idea!

As Discover Dogs isn't on for a god while, Why not visit one of the upcoming championship shows on the days where the breeds your interested in are being shown.

We have West Of England ladies Kennel Association 27 - 29th April 2018 at Malvern (Three Counties showground).

Birmingham National championship show coming up held at Stafford county Showground.

Then Bath championship show (both in May)

Three Counties championship show at Malvern in June.

List of General Championship shows here: https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/738479/g_g_2018.pdf

As others have said there is Leeds Champ show at Harewood. I can tell you that Hound/Gundog day is sat 28th...i dont know off top of my head what day Toys are ( i am at work)... strongley recommend you visit ..it should help with your research

Just looked up that Toys, which is the group Cavaliers fall into, are on fri 27th July for Leeds Champ show at Harewood house

Thankyou  my husband's  booked sometime off  so we can all go . I'm sure it'll help us decide

If you do go, remember not to bother those with entries as they are preparing to go into the ring!   You'll get more attention if you wait until afterwards - depending on whether or not they did well in their class

It isn't always obvious to the 'untrained eye' who is about to go into their class...so Catherine a tip would be to say something like are you about to go into the class or have you got time to answer some questions