Well our first litter are 19 days old, 5 greedy gundog breed puppies and I'm starting to think about weaning. Mum is well fed and having plenty of extra raw meat with her 4 meals a day but the 5 of them easily go through both sides of teats each feeding time, mum is patient but getting a bit fed up, even after she decides they've had enough which can be quite a while they are starting to still seem hungry. They're gaining weight well, the bigger ones just under 2kg, the smaller about 1.5kg or just under (not weighed since worming at the weekend) but I think it seems to have levelled this past day or two - a couple are big pups, not chubby, just big! This is our first litter and just wanted to double check weaning.

We've brought some Royal Canin babydog milk on the recommendation of the stud dog owner, I know a lot don't approve of milk but they are one of the most influential kennels in a very popular breed who have been successfully rearing show champs for 40/50 years so I'll listen to their advice. I was planning on trying the pups on a small amount to taste for a couple of days and get the idea of lapping. I was then thinking of introducing  small amount of defrosted raw chicken mince or beef mince .... Is one better than the other?? with some RC milk afterwards. Once all are happyily tucking into the raw mince i'll gradually introduce some soaked RC with the mince added, followed up a couple of times a day with RC milk for a few weeks to top any of the pups up .... and of course their mum. 

Does this sound alright, just wanted to double check with not weaning a litter before. We also plan to add other meats, scrambled eggs etc as we do this with our adults.

Thanks
Claire

Weaning with ours started with warmed goats milk - we had a local source and it was way cheaper than any commercially made puppy milk.  Each was held individually to help them learn how to lap which some did more easily than others.   I also gave each a tiny amount of lean raw mince - about as much as would cover a thumbnail (Basset puppies).   Once they could lap then I added a good quality puppy food, mixed with either the milk, or warm water, into a porridge.  Again helping each to be able to tuck in indivdually before moving on to, using one of the round puppy food dishes, filling them (one or two dishes depending on numbers).   Mum was removed while they were eating and let in once they all had their fill, to clean up and allow comfort nursing, standing up.   Early days of course, most of their nourishment still came from mum but for sure, once the sharp teeth were felt, my bitches would want out - fast.

I kept up the raw mince, plus scrambled egg, cottage cheese and so on (not in the same meal) to help promote the heavy bone Bassets should have.  But I used a commercial puppy food as I didn't feel confident enough to provide a properly balanced adequate puppy diet.   Early on with the raw mince, we only gave this once a day much as it was so eagerly consumed, the temptation was to give more than their immature dig.systems could handle.

Again with our Bassets, we'd give a warm drink of goats milk mid-morning, mid-afternoon and last thing.   But whether this was 'needed' I'm not sure.   It was, again, about the heavy bone much as you breed for that!!

Royal Canin puppy moose is a good next step after you are happy that they all can lap. We used to use a ball of mince at that point before going on to Royal Canin starter but with our most recent litter to moose worked well.

If you only want the advice of "one of the most influential kennels in a very popular breed who have been successfully rearing show champs for 40/50 years", why post here and ask for any?  Why not email them and ask what they do? 

Royal Canin Baby Dog Milk contains BHT.  It is listed as 'antioxidants' on the ingredient list, because they can then get away without listing it - but I emailed and they told me.  Here is information on BHT:  https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/red-flag-ingredients/bht-in-dog-food/ If you want to give that to 21 day old puppies because "one of the most influential kennels in a very popular breed who have been successfully rearing show champs for 40/50 years" does, then go ahead...  It's not something that would ever go anywhere near any of my dogs.

The most successful people in dog training 50 years ago, were yanking dogs around by choke chains.  That didn't make it the best thing for the dog.

Don't just do something because someone else does it, research it and decide for yourself if you want to do it.  Think for yourself. 

As for weaning, it is best to be led by mum and pups should not need to lap when they are weaned (if they are weaned at the right age) - they should be started to want to chew and bite food, and that's the instinct that needs encouraging, not lapping milk products.  If you really really want to give milk, then goat milk - as MamaBas says - is best.  But really puppies don't need any milk if they are not weaned early, just mashing up some puppy food with a bit of water is fine and after a couple of days they won't even need the water. 

You can feed them and let them eat what they want, then let mum in to clean up and top up with her own milk - as MamBas says too.  There's not really any need for milk products.

I’d like to say that there will be ‘top breeders’ on here too and that everyone has their own ideas about what they think is best.
We have  always weaned on to scraped steak first. I read years ago that young puppies cannot cope with the little bits of sinew in mince . They will go mad for the steak, the same cannot be said for puppy porage.
We have found every litter is different and will prefer different foods.
  Take advice from people who’s judgement you trust.
Onetwothreefour: I’d like to recommend chamomile tea to help you relax a bit

> I’d like to say that there will be ‘top breeders’ on here too and that everyone has their own ideas about what they think is best.

Hear.  Hear.

Onetwothreefour: I’d like to recommend chamomile tea to help you relax a bit

valarian is good for calming I think

Thank you for your replies and I wish I hadn't bothered after the some of the responses. All so was saying is that the stud dog owners are very experienced (unlike me) with our breed and clearly their dogs look and do very well. If someone recommends you something when they've tried various methods for donkeys years then I take their advise. However, this is our first litter, I've never weaned one before and wanting to check I was on the right track. It was no disrespect to anyone one here who I know are very experienced in other breeds and I appreciate the advise hence posting.
I personally thought trying milk for a couple of days to ensure they lap wouldn't do much harm, they're used to suckling and I wasn't sure whether they might try to suck meat and choke but clearly due to my inexperience that is wrong. I also thought the goat milk available at the supermarket would be a big drop in protein and fat hence presuming one designed for puppies would be better and be a bit more encouraging than water with mushed puppy food to begin with.

Also thank you for the tip on scraped steak, I didn't know which would be better out of beef mince or chicken mince ?? I hadn't thought about the grissel in beef but would the bone content be too much in chicken mince ? Ive not done this before so I've no idea what suits puppies better and we're learning along with way and it goes without saying we want our puppies to get everything they need!!

Weaning any young animal should be done with a view to the animal eating it's"normal"diet. No animal needs to drink milk in adult life to develop & grow & dogs like any other animal have lactose digestion issues in adulthood.

I've never bred dogs, but have a lifetime of breeding sheep & as mine have always wean naturally they do have a period of drinking milk & eating grass. With dogs bitch's milk & meat are compatible for the relatively short period they need to be fully weaned.

In the past weaning was done by the natural lessening of the bitch's milk supply & increasing the meat being fed. It's relatively recent that "puppy weaning"foods have been produced presumably to make it easier for the breeder to use. It takes less time to prepare complete feed than natural meat.

I've NEVER fed puppy complete food or supplements, preferring a raw meat diet for all my dogs from cradle to grave. I've had to wean puppies that have been raised on a manufactured diet to a natural raw diet after they arrive with me. Never given any form of milk to my dogs either. With my puppies I simply mince /chop the meat into smaller pieces so it easier from them to eat. At 8 weeks I expect  them to be able to eat complete chicken wings.

I never wean my puppies on milk. For one thing it’s unnatural, when dog mothers wean their puppies they first eat themselves normal food, and then regurgitate it for the pups. If you’ve ever witnessed this you would have seen the consistency of regurgitated food, it’s never ‘watery’ but a porridge-like mush of food.

For another thing, weaning on milk or any other watery food is dangerous, a desire to “teach” puppies to lap may result in aspiration pneumonia. More likely in some breeds than others, but why risk it. Especially as per above, it’s unnatural.

> We have  always weaned on to scraped steak first. I read years ago that young puppies cannot cope with the little bits of sinew in mince . They will go mad for the steak,

Ditto...always done this in the 50+ years ....Why give milk when the dam is giving them that already!!

thank you for that I've just pulled some outbto defrost to try them with it later and will just use the milk up to soak the biscuits to start off with.

How slowly do you go up to the required number of feeds? I understand for now it is just experimenting and playing with food so should I try then twice a day for a couple of days? Then maybe add an extra soaked puppy food taster ?

Eventually I thought of feeding times at 6am, 10am, 2pm, 6pm and 10pm and drop that to 4 meals at 7ish weeks with at least 2 meals being raw, chopped boiled eggs etc

> I personally thought trying milk for a couple of days to ensure they lap wouldn't do much harm, they're used to suckling and I wasn't sure whether they might try to suck meat and choke but clearly due to my inexperience that is wrong. I also thought the goat milk available at the supermarket would be a big drop in protein

I think you have to bear in mind those who do offer advice here (apart from not being VETS!) do so based on their experience with their particular breed and breeding experience.   Which may not be right for every breed!    Goats milk is closest to bitch milk in make up - so is generally tolerated where cows milk may not be.   Also once the puppies have teeth, they should be able to chew, not suck and choke.   We found starting weaning by getting them used to lapping warmed goats milk, worked best - for our puppies!   And at the outset, most of their nourishment was still being taken from mum.

Well all I can say is WOW!! I added some warm water to some defrosted beef mince from our butchers that had no fat, about a teaspoon each and took each puppy one at a time and they devoured the lot, the others were waking up, smelling it,crawling over and trying to find any juices they could before it was there turn. They absolutely loved it, and I loved watching them !! I offered a small amount of milk afterwards and they definitely didnt want any so I think they have decided what they want to eat. I will just use the milk for soakig puppy biscuits at first and making up scrambled eggs or dog friendly egg custard (baked milk and eggs) which our adults love occasionally until it is all gone. And again now I've had an experience I wouldn't buy it again in future, maybe just the odd bit of natural goats milk.

I start mine at 18 days with soaked puppy food added to a Goats mil based puppy formula.

I try them once that day with about a teaspoonful of mush each, then twice next day and by day 21 4 times a day, as little or as much as they like.

I continue 4 meals a day from then to appetite with about 1/4 pint of puppy milk per pup from about 4 weeks and progressively more soaked puppy food getting less sloppy so by 6 weeks pups are getting the soaked puppy food topped off by the milk.

Mum gets to clear up leftovers as I always give a little more than they are likely to eat.

I often cut milk out at 6 weeks as that is the time that my Mums have stopped meaningful feeding, only giving the odd comfort suck.  I have found that pups often become a bit loose at this stage and cutting out the milk stops this as pups guts gradually get less able to process milk of any kind.

My breed pups are around the 9 - 11 pound mark at 8 weeks and 20kg adults.  So adjust according to breed size.

I do like to gibe one meal from 4 weeks of more natural foods, meat, milk chicken pieces etc, so pups are used to a bit of variety.

I have to say that I do ike the idea of natural feeding but do not rear my pups that way.

Most new owners (or myself) will not know enough about canine nutrition.  When you think how fast puppies grow, even getting things wrong for a few days could have a major long term effect on growth and health.

Think a pup born at under a pound being 10 pounds in 8 short weeks, is an incredible rate of growth, and it is still very rapid to 4 - 6 months.

At 4 weeks and weaning , mush twice a day atm and mum 4 hourly , how long can pups go through the night if last mum fees is 1:30 am ?
TIA

From when I start introducing food to pups I feed them 8am, 12pm, 8pm and 10pm. 

Mum has unrestricted access to pups (except while they eat their weaning meals) right until they leave home, but is able to get away from them if she wishes.