Hello all, I have just picked up my Dogue de Bordeaux puppy boy. I was in touch with the breeder from when he was about 4 weeks old. As as I was going away on holiday I could not visit him before picking him up, but the puppy is supposedly from a well renowned kennel, and the breeder sent me weekly pictures. She derscribed him as a big puppy, but it was hard to tell by looking at the pictures and he was always on his own. Today when we picked him up we were a bit shocked at how small he is, and how young he looks. We have another DDB which was the smallest of the litter, half their sibling weight, and she was bigger. I noticed also that his weight on the vaccination card says 3.9kgs yesterday, which for a 8 week old seems very low? I know that maybe we shouldn’t have taken him if we had concerns but we just loved him already and to be honest, he looked on the slim side so we just wanted to take care of him. He ate two bowls of food, good food, and is going to the toilet as normal. He is still a bit wobbly when he walks and falls off like a very young dog. Do you think that maybe he is not as old as the breeder told me he was? Would a bet vaccinate a puppy younger than 8 weeks? Thank you.

Yes a vet would vaccinate a puppy younger than 8 weeks.

>We have another DDB which was the smallest of the litter, half their sibling weight, and she was bigger.

How do you know that she was bigger, did you weight her at 8 weeks old so you can compare or does it simply "seems" so?

I do agree that you should not have bought the puppy, and it is by no means too late to take it back. If you at this earliest stage already think that the breeder of your puppy is lying to you, this is an AWFUL start of relationship.

Hi, thanks for your reply. I have many pictures of my other DDB and also remember very well she weighed more than him at this age, unless he is younger than we were told.
I don’t think I could return a puppy, unless it was very ill, even then I am not sure I would. Regarding a relationship with the breeder, I never expected to have any, to be honest.

The reason I asked is because human memory about growing/changing things (puppies, babies, cabbages...) when these are growing/changing in front of their eyes is never reliable without a point of reference. As to the breeder any reputable person will take their puppy back if the new owner is not happy for whatever reason. And when you are not happy and blaming the breeder for this, it is like bile at the back of the throat and every time you look at the puppy you are reminded of it.

And then what if something else goes wrong, an illness, a temperament difficulty, etc? If you are already thinking that the breeder is lying to you about such tiny thing as age a difference of a week or so, it will be only so easy in your mind to blame the breeder for those more serious problems, as the breeder is your puppy's background. That is a relationship in a sense, you living with these thoughts towards the breeder even if you never make the contact.

Re vaccinating younger than 8 weeks - if for any reason the puppy didn't take mum's first milk (colostrum) most vets, from my not-personal experience, would give an initial vaccination at around 6 weeks against Parvo and Leptospirosis.    Natural immunity in those dogs who have had mum's first milk generally is felt to last to around 5 weeks after which point it gradually drops away until, again in general, by around 8 weeks it's felt safe to start external vaccination, expecting it to 'take'.   Done too soon and it won't.   The ONLY way to know for sure is to have each individual puppy titre tested to see what's missing.   But that's expensive so most breeders would go with 'the norm'.   Our puppies were vaccinated at 10 weeks and then 12 weeks (UK).

This is a worrying situation and although of course you won't want to take this puppy straight back to his breeder, frankly I would.


Natural immunity in those dogs who have had mum's first milk generally is felt to last to around 5 weeks after which point it gradually drops away until, again in general, by around 8 weeks it's felt safe to start external vaccination, expecting it to 'take'. 

MATERNAL immunity can last for an infinite period there is no set time & the only way to have any idea is to titre test first & then be guided by the results.  Dogs over 10 weeks of age should only have 1 vaccination in line with the manufacturers advice.

Puppies are not born with a fully developed immune system & too many doses of vaccine can & do permanently damage immune systems.

Any vet who blindly revaccinates dogs lacks both the knowledge & understanding of development of immunity in animals

3.9kg is about 8-9lb. This is indeed very small for your breed. The breeder could not conceivably describe this as a big puppy. He should be twice as heavy as this. Bells are ringing. take him back!

Is the pup KC registered ? Do u have all.the papers ? .a vet check from your vet is imperative given your worries ? Did U get any pet insurance from the breeder ? As for vaccines i prefer to do them myself at a later date .but if the breeder did them I would be talking to my vet about not starting the programme again and using the same manuafacture or the pup is being over vaccinated .  vaccinating under 6 weeks is very young amd likley the mother immunity  will prevent any such vaccines being any use . If u keep the pup do research lepto and kennel cough none are mandatory in the UK  and can carry extra risks .

> Regarding a relationship with the breeder, I never expected to have any, to be honest.

As a breeder I am sure like other breeders here, this would be very disappointing to me, and not what to expect from a good breeder who breeds with the welfare of their breed, their dogs and their owners in mind.

I see my pups owners as extended family, and have built solid friendships with quite a few.

I always say it is more important to choose a breeder, than a puppy, and then they will help choose the right puppy for you.

> 3.9kg is about 8-9lb. This is indeed very small for your breed

My breed the bitches are around 18 - 20kg and 19 - 20 inches at shoulder as adults.

I expect bitch puppies to weigh around 9 - 11 pounds at 8 weeks and the males 10 -12, though have had pups larger than this.

So a pup of your very large breed should weigh probably close to double.

Hi, Monkeyj, I said that not only from memory, but as a fact, my bitch was 8kg when she was 8 weeks, and it carried on
Iike that for a while, she weighed in kg the same as her age/weeks, gradually going up. Regarding not being happy and blaming the breeder if something goes wrong, too right I would, if that was a consequence of the puppy being taken away from mum too early, and sold too early. I am not too worried about the breeder’s feelings, more worried about my puppy’s health and well being. I realise things happens that are obviously not the breeder’s fault, but the pup’s weight is a sign something is not right, the breeder either sold me the runt or worse, and that’s not right, I didn’t expected that from that breeder, and all I’m interested in is my puppy.

Hi, MamaBas, thanks for your reply and info. I know we are worried but we could never give him back. Something is not right and I could not in good conscience send him back to someone I now don’t trust. I don’t care about the money, we will do our best for him and I only wanted some opinions on his weight and size as I never had such a small puppy and I’ve had, and have, large breed dogs.

Sounds like he's only 3/4 weeks old to me, that's very light.

Hi, Tommee, thanks for your reply and info

Hi, Louise Badcock, thanks for your reply. The breeder specifically said he was a huge puppy, even though we were not bothered about getting the biggest one. I could feel his spine when we got him, so he was definitely malnourished we think, but he eats A LOT, I’m feeding him 4 x daily a mix of dry and moist, grain free food, he eats all every time. We can’t take him back, as I explained before, he is already part of the family, he is a sweet puppy and we are keeping him, hopefully he will grow to be healthy, even if he is a miniature Bordeaux!

Hi, furryfriends, when we contacted the breeder, she asked if he was to be a pet only, I said yes, as with all our dogs and cats, and she suggested I didn’t get the papers and have him at a reduced price, which we said yes. That deal was not exclusive to this puppy, as I had contacted this breeder before, years ago, and was offered the same thing. We ended up going with another breeder that time(paid full price with papers). I do however have four weeks insurance, microchip, card vaccination. Like I said before, that is supposely a reputable breeder, a show kennel, so I never thought this would happen. We will be taking the puppy to our vet tomorrow, I’m hoping there’s nothing wrong and he might just be younger.

Hi, Brainless, I completely agree with you, and what I meant was, I never expect any relationship with any breeder, but, if it happens, great. We have had contact with a couple of breeders before, but not all, maybe just when the puppy was young, I always sent pictures to the breeders and updates, but that was as far as it went. That didn’t mean I didn’t want a relationship, it just never happened; that being said, not keeping in touch never meant we didn’t have the utmost respect for the breeders- until now.
We thought we did choose the breeder over the dog, and we are very disappointed and feel completely let down by someone we should have been able to trust. Now, we are definitely choosing the dog over the breeder and will not be returning him.

Hi, jogold, Thanks foi your reply, I don’t think he’d be that young as he seems to have most of his baby teeth through.

There is absolutely no reason why a breeder would sell a puppy for a reduced price without papers IF they can register the litter.  It makes no sense financially - it costs the same amount to whelp, raise, feed and look after a litter of unregistered puppies as registered puppies. 

The only time that prices are reduced is usually when all pups in the litter HAVE to be unregistered - because mum is too old, has had too many litters, breeding is too close to be registered etc etc etc.  Assuming all puppies are ABLE to be registered, it makes zero sense for a breeder to offer to sell them for a reduced price, unregistered.  Why would they do that, it has still cost them the same to raise them and they could easily sell for full price with papers (which don't cost that much to get from the KC).

Something very fishy about all this.

Hi, onetwothreefour, yes, thinking about it now it doesn’t make sense, as you say. We never asked for any discount, we always bought KC registered puppies, with papers, paid full price. The only reason we said OK is because she offered, we thought maybe it was common practice with some breeders, and, as I mentioned before, being a show kennel, etc, we completely trusted them. But she would have given me the papers if I wanted them, I assume.

I find this odd with this being a show kennel as the habit of selling non KC registered pups at a discount price tends to found with back yard breeders. Often the pups are not registered with the KC in the first place and saying the pups will be KC registered is just an advertising ruse to get the 'punters' through the door. You are then offered a sizeable enough 'discount' (which isn't one really as that was what they were planning to sell the pups for anyway) and more often or not the seller is able to sell puppies without KC reg.
I hope your pup will be ok and it's nothing more then not having enough food and he will thrive in your care. It all seems rather odd though

Hi, Jodie, the kennel is very well known, they are here in this site, and they do show their dogs, or at lest they did. When I was looking for a DDB years ago, they seemed to already been an established kennel, so I had no reason to distrust them, or so I thought. Thank you, we will make sure he gets the best care, and we hope for the best.

Just tagging on to the end here. I believe a good relationship with your puppy buyers is essential. We (breeders) all get the odd one that doesn't keep in touch a lot but usually is a perfect home anyway (as had there been concerns, we'd not have sold them a pup to start with) - for instance I had a phonecall last week from somebody who has not been in touch for years. His dog is now 12 and he said he's been perfect and was now looking for another. Last year was really funny. I saw the Essex Dog Display team on TV and spotted a dog in it that I could have sworn was from my lines. A little bit of digging, yes the dog was bred by myself, his owner was one not keeping in touch -but clearly the dog has done very well indeed (at the time there hadn't been many plans other than local training classes, not jumping through hoops of fire lol), and now we are FB friends. But the majority of my buyers become proper friends. I have had several visit over the last couple of weeks, with their adult dogs. Pretty much all my closest friends are puppy buyers.

Re the puppy's size - I had a litter (different breed) where one pup was half the size of the littermates. At one point even just a third the weight. Several vet visits and nothing could be found wrong with the pup at all. She was like a miniature version. But without extensive x-rays and whatever, we couldn't be sure she was a normal puppy as she really was abnormally small. So there was no way I was going to sell her. I would have kept her, but the breeder I got MY first pup of the breed from 17 years earlier asked if she could have her. She knew I'd never let her go to a stranger, and she was willing to take the pup on as a pet, knowing full well that nobody knew if it was a normal pup or not. To me this was an ideal agreement. This lady is no longer breeding and has just one other dog. My pup has a great life. She's happy and playful etc. I obviously did not charge a penny for her. However, at 7 months of age she has started showing unusual movement on her hindlegs. Uncoordinated. So chances are there is something wrong (more likely neurological than with the actual bones) and she will be investigated.

On the other hand, I have had full litters where the pups were much smaller than from other litters, without there being anything wrong. Nice even litters -just smaller than I've been used to due to different lines being brought in.

Did you ever see photos of your pup with its littermates? Another reason for having a good relationship with your breeder is that owners of siblings can become friends. I have a lot of puppy buyers who keep in touch on Facebook, compare notes about their pups and photos, and also meet up with each other. Likewise when I got my first pup of the breed I made friends with some of the other buyers, and they are still friends today.

Hi, Goldmali. It’d have been good to have had a closer relationship with the breeders of my previous dogs, but, we live in London and had to travel quite far every time to get a puppy, even the rescued ones. So maintaining a friendship would’ve been harder. I am hoping and hoping that my puppy will be OK, with the right food and lots of love...my other DDB came from a small kennel, the lady was lovely and she told us from the start that our puppy was the smallest of the litter, half the weight, and also that she was a nutcase! By the time we got her she was still smaller but looked really good and healthy. She is a big girl now, not yet two years old, and she is still a nutcase, we love her a lot

The price to register a puppy is £16. So that's the only price reduction. Do you know that the litter have actually been registered. Why would you only  register some of the litter, you just wouldn't. You register the whole litter and then I guess the breeder could hols back registration but it all sounds very odd to me and for a very large breed he is much lighter than I would expect for an 8 week old pup.

When I bought my German shepherd I saw the litter at 3 weeks old. The mother was a 3 year old bitch and it was her first litter. I was sent pictures etc over the next 5 weeks and all seemed well.
When I picked him up however he was much smaller than the pictures suggested. It was my first German shepherd and in hindsight I should have left him there but I brought him home. My neighbour had an 8 week old bitch German shepherd and he was half her size.
Had him to my vet the following morning who said he was undernourished most likely from birth. His bunny hopped which I was terrified was a hip problem. Anyway the vet advised me to give him ready brek made with lactol puppy milk in the morning and good quality nuts twice a day and let him run around the garden but no walks on hard ground. It became my mission!

He thrived from the day I got him. That was almost ten years ago and he is a big boy now. Getting a little stiff but still fit and loves his walks and his bed by the fire. I hope your pup will be the same.

Hi, Suejaw, I really don’t know, I’ve been thinking a lot about it now and even doubting that the dogs they showed us were the puppy’s parents(the parents were much darker, but I think that doesn’t mean a lot?) although I remember the breeder said viewings would start at 4 weeks old, so I guess I’d have seen the puppy with the mum?? I never viewed a puppy until they were almost ready to leave, so, don’t know if the puppies are separated from mum for viewings, etc. And regarding registration, I have no idea, is there anyway I could find out?

A few days ago I had a previous puppy buyer come for a visit - she had 3 hrs drive each way.  ☺ Very rare for me to sell locally.  However it's still easy to keep in touch via email, FB, phone etc.

It does all sound rather dodgy unfortunately.

> MATERNAL immunity can last for an infinite period there is no set time & the only way to have any idea is to titre test first & then be guided by the results.  Dogs over 10 weeks of age should only have 1 vaccination in line with the manufacturers advice.

Tommee  I seem to remember clashing with your information re vaccination before but I used the word NATURAL as opposed to EXTERNAL.   Of course it's MATERNAL immunity gained via the colostrum.   I have no information re this immunity lasting 'for an infinite period' but that again, from 'around' 5 weeks, the immunity from mumn gradually drops until by 'around' 8 weeks, external vaccination can be given/started with reasonable expectation that it will 'take'.   To give the benefit of the doubt, rather than titre testing each of our puppies, we didn't have external vaccination started until 10 weeks, followed by the normal 2 week interval (some vets prefer to leave it 3 weeks) for the second set.   And boosters given 12 months on.  After that, our hounds now go to a 3-yearly booster schedule apart from the one for Lepto. which is given annually.   And of course, in relevant countries where it's required legally, the rabies booster.

And regardless of what 'any vet' does, this is the norm.

I don't booster mine after around 7 years of age.

Gracie1, could you contact admin@champdogs.co.uk with the breeders details please. If they sold you a pup without KC registration papers then they have broken our rules: Champdogs Terms and Conditions of Use. Please take your puppy to a Vet as soon as you can and get it checked.

Mamabas u may be interested to read some research by Dr Jean Dobbs in vaccines.well.respected immunologist and also.ron Shultz. The wsava also may explains more about mother's immunity as those two people advise on the recommeded protocols for them . Mothes immunity wanes over the first 14 weeks and is usually present longer than 5 weeks  it's often what gets in the way of vaccination which is why repeated vaccines are given as a catch all.natural immunity will also play a small part probably not more in the very early weeks as they get older that becomes more likley as u know .

I would also titre test within about 6 weeks of core vaccines and if positive wouldn't vaccinate again .

Please do report this breeder to the ChampDogs admin.  It's not right for them to be offering reduced rates for non-KC reg puppies, and if they're doing that to you, they're doing that to many more...

As someone else says above, it only costs £16 to register a puppy with the KC - so offering you a reduced rate makes no sense for a non-KC puppy, UNLESS there is a reason it really can't be registered.  (Mum too old, too many litters etc).  In which case - they are not reputable breeders...

All you can do is keep going with the good food and regular worming and he should make up for any lost ground.

Hi, Kate H, So glad to hear your mission was accomplished and your boy is still going happy and healthy, I do hope for the same for my boy. Taking him to the vet tomorrow and mention the diet you gave your pup. I can see some difference in my puppy already, we gave him a warm bath Saturday as he was dirty and smelly, he is eating really well and started playing a lot today, he has definitely come out of his shell, from having his tail between his legs saturday, today he is so much more confident, wanting lots of attention. He is loving Orijen mixed with wet food, he eats it all and wants more, but I am careful not to over feed. I’m hoping everything will be OK at the vet, and he will continue to get stronger, like your dog did

To Admin, I have sent you an email with all the details

Hi, onetwothreefour, I have just sent the Admin an email. Yes, I can see now that the breeders could make a fortune at the expense of their bitches, it’s disgusting. The only thing that makes me feel less guilty is that we will do the best for this puppy and make sure he has a good life.

Hi, jogold, yes, I’m feeding him regularly good food, will start him on raw mixed with dry soon, and I’m hoping you are right, and that he is healthy.

Do you know the kc names for the parents? If so yes it can be checked on mykc to see if any litters have been registered

Hi, suejaw, no, I asked the breeder which were the parents, on the website, and she told me the site was outdated, but I could see the parents when we got there. So when we arrived, the first thing the breeder did was show us, from a distance, a beautiful dark red bordeaux in a line of kennels, and said that was the dad. Inside their home there was another lovely dark red in a cage, I was told was mum. I asked her name, and when I got home I checked the website an£ couldn’t see the mum. It wasn’t until I checked again yesterday that I found a bitch with the name the breeder told me, in the retired page. However, that bitch is not the same one we saw in the cage, so I don’t know.

> Mamabas u may be interested to read some research by Dr Jean Dobbs in vaccines.well.respected immunologist and also.ron Shultz. The wsava also may explains more about mother's immunity as those two people advise on the recommeded protocols for them

I have already read what Dobbs has to say although not Schultz.   I didn't suggest that mum's immunity has gone by 5 weeks, I said it GRADUALLY DROPS FROM around 5 weeks until by around 8 weeks , it's generally felt that external vaccination can be given with a good chance it will take.  Following the tried and tested protocol has, for me at any rate, worked.    Maybe had I seen problems with mine, I'd have gone to titre testing.

I guess our puppies have been 'lucky' not to go down with one of the main dog diseases, or suffered with any immune system problems.

I am not closed minded about medical science progress, but for me, experience counts.

Sorry to have inadvertently taken this thread off track (again).

Are you on good terms because you could drop an email saying you wanted to look up the parents and wondered what the kc names are for them

The vax companies must believe maternal immunity lasts until 10 weeks hence their information leaflets state dogs over 10 weeks only need 1 shot of vax obviously before this they consider that 2 vax needed in case the first is affected by maternal immunity.

I wonder how many vets pass on the information leaflets from the manufacturers to their clients as they they should do & how many owners bother to read them ??

I don't just believe the anecdotal stories about the contraindications of drugs/ vaccines on dogs I research the facts(& not just on the net)available from all sides. The fact that my dogs have never had any core disease or Lepto or Infectious tracheobronchitis(kennel cough - except the only dog who had ever been given the"kennel cough" vaccine before I got him)despite being in areas where the conditions existed bears out my beliefs

Tommee, not all vaccination leaflets state that dogs over the age of 10 wks need just one shot - some manufacturers state that dogs over the age of 12 weeks need one shot.  There is no absolute science to all this, because it differs for each individual dog as to when exactly maternal antibodies wear off.  If a puppy didn't get colostrum after birth, they may not even have any maternal antibodies.  Sometimes maternal antibodies have been found lasting until 16wks - which is why the 1st year booster is important (if you're not titering) - just to be sure the dog is covered. 

I agree with you about lepto and KC, and I don't give these to my dogs either.

No point in giving booster at year anniversary if you don't titre test. I know of dogs(from research papers)that have never been vac yet still have memory cells

Vet should give the factual leaflets to clients every time drugs etc are given to their animals that way the client had the manufacturers view point

I was going to let this go, BUT I would say that, having asked about titre testing prices (and for me unfortunately price is relevant) prior to boostering (at 3 yearly intervals) the cost of the booster was lower than the cost of titre testing which isn't always reliable in any case (according to my vet who because I'm no vet, I have to respect).   So again I prefer to go with the tried and tested.    If we all held back, those diseases we don't see so often these days, could well become more prevalent again and I suggest it could well be that the fact you (T) don't booster, could be because others do??

I believe the first booster, 12 months on from the puppy set, is important.

I also believe that for most clients, giving them a leaflet may well go in one ear and out the other - the leaflet would be binned.  After all the average client expects the vet to be up to date and would prefer to be advised by the vet who has read all the 'leaflets' that come in?

Just my view.

Hi, suejaw, to be honest, I never want to speak to these people again...I already know the puppy’s mum is not the one they told me. I did go on the KC website and there’s no litter from that kennel registered there at the moment.

Vaccinated dogs are not protected from getting the disease lets get this right. The vaccine is supposed to reduce the effects of the disease, yet because diseases can & do mutate(have been advised by a VET that there is a new strain of Parvo that the current vaccines offer little or no protection/reduction at all & only vaccinated dogs have been affected so far)owners who blindly follow their vet's advice & put 100% faith in the vaccine programs they sell(at a very good mark up vaccines cost around £5 or less per shot) put their dogs health at risk.

Titre testing is not new it isn't liked by traditional GP vets because apart from the huge markup on the cost of the titre test done out of house(Glasgow vet school charge around £30-GP vets increase this up greatly some yp to £100) they lose the vaccine mark up as well if the test shows no vaccination is required.

Until recently UK vets were still giving full boosters every year. It took legal action in the US for the change to 3 yearly, yet there is evidence that vaccinations in dogs can be effective for life.

You go on giving your dogs chemicals I have no problem with that, just remember that only 100% healthy dogs should be vaccinated so any dog on any treatment should NOT be vaccinated whether it be for epilepsy, arthritis or any other condition. Isn't one of your dogs on medication ??

Perhaps we should take this to another post as its really taken away from the original Apologies as I contributed to going off at tangent

Gracie 1
I am so sorry that you have found out that things weren't at all what you thought. I do hope your pup will be oj inspoite of all this and grows into a healthy dog

Hello all, just an update, took my puppy to the vet today and he has put on 550 grams already, since He was weighed Friday. He does have soft stools though, so is taking a probiotic for that. The vet said he seems fine, and he thinks he is between 6 to 8 weeks, as his canines are very small, and is in no way older than 8 weeks- and he is supposed to be 9 weeks Friday. I’m giving him a little goat’s milk with his food once a day, he loves it, and udder with tripe, too, a bit with his food once a day, and the other two meals with only dry with moist food. He loves his food but will only eat it all if we stay with him, though