Please be kind. Ok so my husband works on a farm where they run 2 collies, a dog and a bitch, he called me last week from work and said he thought that the bitch might be pregnant, the chap he works for is in his 90's and so for obvious reasons he brought her to our house to whelp and raise the pups, that was Wednesday last week, when he brung her in she was very obviously pregnant, and a slight squeeze of her teats revealed she had milk in already. This is her first litter and she is 8 years old! Hubby insists they didn't get up to anything while he was there, so we are thinking mating must have happened on a weekend when his boss took them out together. I took her to vet last Thursday, she was scanned to have a definite 3 puppies poss more. The vet reckoned they were huge and due any day, but to check back Monday (yesterday) if there hadn't been any movement over the weekend. So counting back mating looks likely on 9th or 10th July. So now on day 65/66. Rectal temp has been a steady 37.5oc, no puppies over weekend, vet again yesterday and she did internal, cervix softening, but pelvis very high?, another scan showed pups still have good strong heart beats, so we decided to leave be and revisit Wednesday. Last nights temp down to 36.2oc and by 11pm, first stage starts, not eating, digging, bit loose, panting, continues on and off all night, still in same situation now with no progression yet to straining or pushing. Back at vets this afternoon as I was worried about the lack of progress. Different vet today, and she was very dismissive, left feeling a bit silly, I will go back tomorrow morning to see the original vet, but I guess my question is do you think this is all ok, should i have pushed for action today? Should I push for a section tomorrow. Its been a very long time since I have helped whelp, and maybe it's just nerves, but something really doesn't feel right. Thanks in advance for any help

I would suggest you have a c-section, not something I am a fan of but with an 8 year old bitch and big puppies it would seem to me the obvious choice, if you feel that there is something not right then go with your instincts always.  Let us know how it goes.

I have had a bitch in first stage labour for 36 hours and then once second stage reached 5 pups all arrived in the space of an hour and 15 minutes.

With an 8 year old maiden I'd want to know does she seem to be exhausted or is she still active.  Might pay to give her some glucose to keep her blood sugar up.

Thank you. Yes I am going to insist tomorrow that is how I want things to go forward. Can I ask does anyone also have any experience of spaying while in doing section. This I think would be the best option for her, to just have it done and recover all at once here where I can keep a close eye, rather than her having to go at a future date and then recover at the farm. Milk production is my concern here. Again thanks in advance

She's definitely quite sleepy, but she is generally a quiet dog so it's hard to say, still happy to get up and go to the toilet etc. Glucose, would that just be sugary water?

> Glucose, would that just be sugary water?

No Glucose powder.

If she is still pottering about then I doubt she has reached exhaustion, how long has she ben in obvious first stage(restless, asking to go to toilet frequently, digging and circling in whelping are or elsewhere (denoting discomfort) with that far away look in her eyes?.

> Can I ask does anyone also have any experience of spaying while in doing section.

Yes twice with no issues.  First was a third labour of a 6 1/2 year old that was not progressing, and the second (also third litter at 6 1/2) was a C section after first pup born with malpresentation of the next.

In both cases as these were last litters I asked vet to spay if safe to do so, as I usually spay 11 - 12 weeks after last litter anyway, so would seem daft to open a bitch up twice in three months..

Will be 24 hours come 11pm, on and off with lots of periods of rest through the night, temp up tonight to 36.7oc and on our last toilet stop just there she squatted a few times as if to poo but didn't poop, so perhaps moving on a bit now

That sounds fine, I expect you will have pups by morning.

Make sure you take a towel out with you, and a torch, when she wants to go toilet, as I have had more than one pup delivered on the way out, outside, or on way back.

If I had a maiden bitch at this age on day 65/66 I would have had a section definitely before now.  Have to say it as I see it.  And I have bitches spayed 12 weeks after a section, always.
I feel sorry for this bitch.  She should have been terminated before now - although I know that's not your fault, and you're stuck with the problem.  Good Luck. 

Sorry, should add that I feel if pups were very big last Thursday, at this stage they are growing rapidly, so would be of concern to me.

but date of mating only being guessed at and temp only dropped last night.

We are at vets now (out of hours service) just now. I knew I had a bad feeling about this. Wish I had pushed for action this afternoon. She got on pushing, had a water sack go, then I noticed a green tinge on the blanket so here we are. Waiting for the vet to see us. Fingers crossed I come out with a healthy dog, any puppies a blessing

We are at vets now (out of hours service) just now. I knew I had a bad feeling about this. Wish I had pushed for action this afternoon. She got on pushing, had a water sack go, then I noticed a green tinge on the blanket so here we are. Waiting for the vet to see us. Fingers crossed I come out with a healthy dog, any puppies a blessing

Don't know/have experienced anything about breeding : just keeping my fingers crossed

I am home and awaiting news, I don't know how to feel, I am annoyed at myself for not being more pushy with the vet his afternoon, I am angry that the emergency service was nothing like an emergency, intact they were as slow paced as a week in the jail, I am heartbroken that this wee soul is having to go through this, she should never have been allowed to get caught and that is why all my dogs are neutered and spayed, I am pissed that what could have cost around £500 this afternoon is now running at around £1800. Now just need to wait for a phone call but I won't hold my breath that it will come anytime soon, sigh

Any news?  Hoping mum is fine xxx

Nothing yet. I have been phone watching, she called at 3 to say the were just going in, still no news

Good gracious, what a long wait!

I think, from experience, I'd GO THERE!    I left one of our bitches with a vet I thought I could trust...... suffice to say it was a disaster, 5 of the 9 puppies were lost, one early on as that vet (not my regular one at the practice who was on holiday) but the Senior Partner, insisted in letting her whelp herself.   That dog survived.   The next one didn't and by the time the locum in in place of my usual vet, arrived the next morning, she found my bitch 'out back' (kennels) more of less shut down.   By the time she got on with the Section, the puppies that were lost were too weak to survive.  

Hopefully all is fine, but that's too long to have to sit and wait.

I agree, go and SEE what's happening - far too long to wait for news

Sorry guys it's been hectic, so we got a call at 6am to say they were out and Mum had come round ok. There were 6 puppies all came out live but the first pup the one that's sack went and placenta coming away didn't make it, we have 5 pups home with her now and she's doing great. Feeding and cleaning as needed. One pups a bit slow, not responding so I think I will top him up now with some whelpi and hope that gives him a kick to get on her. She got dressed while under. I am glad of this. But worry about milk. We will just need to see how she goes. Ah it's been testing
Edit-not responding is a over exaggeration, he has latched and fed but needed help.

Excellent news, hope she'll be a good mum and you get lots of pleasure from them xxx

Thank goodness for a successful outcome, plenty of food and liquid will see the milk come in as it should, phew that's a relief for you and her, enjoy the puppies.

Keep putting the pups on her every chance you get especially the slower smaller ones.

Try to avoid topping up, as it's a demand supply situation.

Weigh pups daily for first week, if they are large they may loose an ounce first day, should regain the next and start putting on after that. An ounce a day in first week, then the rate of gain increases steadily.

For the first three days she should not leave them except for a pee which you may  need to put lead on to make her go. This bonding needs to be encouraged, feed her in her bed. The more she stays with them and the more they suckle, the better the milk supply.

We are so pleased and thankful to the emergency vets who did a great job in the end up. She hadn't been hungry so we got some recovery wet food and made a mash with that and her complete. Also gave her some porridge hoping the oats encourage milk too, does in humans anyway. I should know all about this top up trap as I am currently bf'ing so know how it goes, doesn't stop you worrying tho eh. Got the puppy milk there but holding off for now, and yeah like you say taking every single chance to get them latched on. Thank you all again so much. It's great to have somewhere to come with my worries that I can get knowledgeable help x

Great news. Sorry about the one you lost but enjoy the others. A stressful time for you.

Haven't been able to log in any earlier.  Your post was the first thing I looked for.  So glad you went to vet again and got this sorted.  I was worried for your girl.  Thank you for coming back to give us an update.  It's awful when we wait in vain! 

Enjoy!   

I end up in hospital and miss all the action!

So glad there was a positive outcome for you. Try not to think of the little lost soul and concentrate on the wee beasties you have.

It's lovely when there is a happy outcome - despite the odds being stacked up.

Oh no, hope your ok gsdowner. We had our checkup with the vet this morning, all seems good. Wound looks nice and temp fine. The first pup she got out the box she presumed to be our biggest boy, it was infact the 2nd wee'est. Mum has some milk there but certainly not gifted with plenty, pups % weight gain as of last night (2 1/2 days old) was
3.19%
13.08%
7.18%
6.85%
5.48%
So on the up but hopefully they start pilling it on soon :)

I always see a gain - even a tiny one - as a good sign.

Hopefully milk will become plentiful as the pups grow..they only need tiny amounts in short bursts at regular intervals right now so lots and lots wouldn't really be seen.

I am getting better thank you. I finished the antibiotics yesterday and have finally woken today without an underlying headache :)

Hope you start to feel better soon gsdowner and hubby helping.... good news pups are gaining a lille too

The easiest way to tell if the puppies are getting enough is their attitude, if they are quiet, warm and have fat tummies then they are fine, hungry puppies are usually noisy and empty, I am sure she will be fine in a few days.

Ok sorry to be a pest. Thought I would bump this thread with the back story rather than start a new one. So it will be 6 days tomorrow morning post c-section, bitch was nurtured at the same time. Now she seems extremely gassy? Pumping constantly. We have a rottie dog who is always farting so I am not being a pansy about it. Yes it smells horrific but that doesn't really matter. Just wondered if this was anything anyone else had found, or anything to worry about? Other wise all still doing well, nice weight gains daily and mums a star. One puppy seemed to have a sore tummy last night, a lot of googling lead me to believe he was a bit colicky, and I found some really old post's on here with advice that seems to have put him right. All snoozing away now :)

I have certainly found with the huge increase in food intake gas can be a side effect, especially  as they are also processing the results of the pups digestion too.

Yes, same here .... our feeding bitches are windy, so nothing unusual there or to worry about.

If they weren't windy before then gobbling up puppy poo and increased food rations will do it every time !

Ah, thanks for coming back with an update. Hopefully there will be a pup or 2 to run on for working!

Yeah hubby already has his eye on one, and the chap from the farm next doors been asking after them. There's a cracking big tri dog, if we didn't have 3 pet dogs already he would do me. Should be nice :)

Great to hear a good outcome for you all..... onwards and upwards for the puppies and mom. Did the farmer offer any monetary help re c section fees?

Yes he has paid absolutely everything. We would have obviously if he hadn't but he's been very good about it all and has said all along anything I think she needs get it and forward the bill.