I need help for my friend urgently.  She has just had a C-section birth of 5 Löwchen.  I name the breed because these are not my dogs.  She just got home from the vet, and the mother is biting the babies (WOULD bite them, if allowed access), and my friend doesn't know what to do.  She is an experienced breeder, and this is the third litter for this female.  This never happened before, but what DID happen was that about 18 months ago, this female got hold of the toy poodle puppy of another female (living in the same household), and killed it, seemingly by accident, while trying to remove it from its box.  It was just terrible, because that little puppy had just escaped dying due to being too small and weak at birth, and my friend had worked day and night to save it.  You can imagine the rest....

What should she do about this new situation?  Any help immediately would be much appreciated.

I'm sure more experienced people will be along, so take this with a pinch of salt, but personally, I would muzzle the bitch and have someone hold her and stop her turning around and put the pups on her if she can be kept still enough.  I'd want to get colostrum into them.

It might be a temporary response and partly due to the c-section and lack of maternal feelings, pain, and not knowing where the pups have come from, and it might pass in a few days.  If it doesn't then it might mean foster mum or hand-rearing :(  

That's my tuppence anyway.  Does mum seem to be in pain from the section at all?  Is she on any pain meds?

My friend breeds Bull Terriers. The litters are all born by elective c-section and the pups are never left with the mothers. She keeps the pups separate from the mother, on a heat pad and feeds them on the mum every 2 hours under complete, close supervision. After feeding she cleans puppy to make it poo and wee, they are put back on the heat pad until next feed.

In this case it may be the anesthetic that is causing the mum to attack and as she recovers from the operation she may start to behave completely normal. In the meantime I'd recommend you tell her to do what my friend does, feed the pups on mum but don't leave them with her.

I don't know if I'd have bred another litter from a girl who had killed another puppy...

Fully agree with biffsmum -it will be the anaesthetic causing it.

Thanks so much.  I just called her, and she said it is calming down a bit.  Actually, it did not seem back then that this female wanted to KILL that puppy.  It seemed more like she wanted to steal it away from its own mother and hide it somewhere.  In any case, this is the last litter for this female, my friend just said.

You just never know what's going to happen, do you!  Breeding is soooo difficult.  The c-section, by the way, was due to primary inertia, and the vets couldn't say why.  I hate this inertia thing.  I have experienced it sooo many times.  It is apparently more prevalent in small breeds, I gather.  My friend went twice to the vet's this morning to have the heartbeat rates of the puppies checked, and they were so-so.  Then this afternoon it all ended in a c-section.  She has 3 girls and 2 boys, 4 of normal weight, one who weighs only 90g.

I too think that the behavior of Mum right now is mostly due to the anesthetic.  My friend said that when Mum came to, she started screaming and screaming.  I've seen that happen before too.  It's kind of awful.

I am so grateful to Nimue for having her first litter (my 5 puppies, 9 weeks old tomorrow) all naturally with no complications, blessed girl.

>My friend breeds Bull Terriers.

She might want to have a look at the book by Dieter Fleig, as I believe that was what he bred.  I don't remember his writing that he always did c-sections.

My guess would be that's the anaesthetic causing it too, hopefully if she's been a good mum in the past to her own puppies (whatever she was up to with the other puppy, stealing or whatever) then it will calm down as she recovers, but in the meantime I agree with the idea of muzzling and supervised feeding. Luckily it's not something I've ever encountered, not that I am an experienced breeder either! Ellie had a C-section with her 2nd litter but although I fancy she looked a little confused about the sudden appearance of a puppy, was quite happy to clean and feed it at once even though she was half asleep bless her.

I have that book too, right by me actually, and he says that mothering instincts are very important and he wouldn't breed from a bitch that needs a c section or we risk losing natural whelping and rearing behaviours and maternal feelings - better to breed this out than in...

>I have that book too, right by me actually, and he says that mothering instincts are very important and he wouldn't breed from a bitch that needs a c section or we risk losing natural whelping and rearing behaviours and maternal feelings - better to breed this out than in...

That might apply in some breeds, but in my little breed and other small breeds, I don't think such a thing can or should be stated so categorically.  To remove a wonderful dog from the gene pool just because a puppy was once placed so that it could not come out and the female therefore needed a c-section is, in my opinion, unnecessary and has nothing to do with risking natural whelping and rearing behaviors.

It will almost certainly be the after effects of the section, careful watching and letting the pups suckle will hopefully soon have her settled down with her puppies

That might apply in some breeds, but in my little breed and other small breeds, I don't think such a thing can or should be stated so categorically.  To remove a wonderful dog from the gene pool just because a puppy was once placed so that it could not come out and the female therefore needed a c-section is, in my opinion, unnecessary and has nothing to do with risking natural whelping and rearing behaviors.

Our KC rules are that you have to report a c-section, and if the bitch has had two, you are not allowed to register further puppies from her.
My toybreed is smaller than yours, and I've never had a bitch need a section.

Yes, in the UK all caesarean have to be reported.
My last litter, the dam gave birth naturally to 7 live & 1 dead puppy but the last 2 had to come via Caesar but I still had to report it to KC when registering the litter .

> I don't know if I'd have bred another litter from a girl who had killed another puppy...

My thoughts exactly.  I think this bitch should be spayed and homed as a pet.

>I think this bitch should be spayed and homed as a pet.

And this is exactly what will be done! 

Amazing that you have such strict rules concerning c-sections in the UK, yet such lax ones in general.  Here in Swwitzerland we have so many regulations we can harly make a move without justifying it, yet we do not have to register c-sections.  Or - better said - at least not in MY breed club.  I can't and shouldn't speak for other clubs, as I don't know all of their individual regulations.

>My toybreed is smaller than yours, and I've never had a bitch need a section.

How about that!  I'm happy for you!

I've just now spoken with my friend.  She tells me all is well, no more problems whatsoever!  Mum is completely normal and taking excellent care of her newborns.  So apparently it was really the anesthetic.  Last night she spoke with a breeder friend of hers in Germany, who has been breeding Loewchen for 30 years, and this breeder gave her some good tips, which neither she nor I had known.  It would have been very good if the vet yesterday had saved a couple of placentas so that the babies could have been rubbed all over with them, and perhaps Mum could have eaten one when she was awake.  This would have let her know far more clearly what had happened and why those little beasts were trying to nurse.  Should I ever have to go through a c-section again, I won't forget that!

Many thanks for your comments.  There's always more to learn no matter how long one has been breeding.

It's obviously now resolved - GREAT but having had perhaps more than our fair share of C.Sections, I have to say we've never had a problem because of the C.Section.   In fact most of our mums have still been groggy after coming home (funny how they are up and eager to get out of the vet's office, but zonk once home) so we've always been able to latch the puppies onto mum without them reacting at all.   By the time they are up and at 'em again, they just seemed to accept these were their puppies!    We did have one bitch who for some reason I never understood, hated it when her puppies would crawl round her head.   She didn't do that with her first litter, but with the second, and last!!, she had to be watched all the time.   I'm not sure she'd have done more than snap at them, poor unsighted little mites, but it was always a risk and I had to be around to act fast if I heard her growling.    If this had escalated, I'd have had her away from them apart from putting them on her to feed etc.

One bitch we had Sectioned had me almost having a heart attack when, on going to pick her and the puppies up from the vets, I found her in one of the small cages out back, still drowsy, with the puppies crawling all over her.   Yoiks.

>but having had perhaps more than our fair share of C.Sections, I have to say we've never had a problem because of the C.Section.

Hi Mamabas,
I was wondering what you would have to say on this.  I too have had more than my fair share of c-sections too, and I really cannot say why.  I was wondering with my friend on the phone this morning if we both actually DO go to the vet "too soon" (after around 24+ hours of first stage labor), and then the vet checks the heart rates of the pups and declares them in danger, so we do the c-section, not wanting to lose one single pup, for heaven's sake. But maybe we should have waited?  Some of the narratives of birthing just recently on this forum were for me just amazing!  They just waited and waited for what seemed to me forever and most unwise at that, and others wrote in too, if you remember, urging GO TO THE VET! but they didn't, and it was all just fine in the end!

Anyhow, I too have never had any problems between Mum and babes DUE to the c-section.  I don't like c-sections, as everybody is groggy, and it's all so unnatural, and I feel every time as though I had failed somehow, and I hate having my bitch cut up, and of course it reduces the number of future pregnancies, and so on....

I think that breeders now expect a whole litter to survive whereas in "the olden days" it was usual to lose some of the litter. My parents brought a GSD 47 years ago from one of the UK's top breeders on breeding terms. Sheba had 2 litters, the first she had 13 pups and lost 7 and the second she had 12 and lost 5. It was just how it was.

At the same time I was waiting for my 2nd litter, my dad's cousin (in her 70's) also had a pregnant Jack Russell. She lived outside (my relative has a small holding) whelped overnight on her own and unfortunately one of the 3 puppies was dead when my relative checked on her that morning. She was sad as it was the only boy but she certainly wasn't devastated as some on here would be to lose a puppy. The mum and pups were left outside, in a heated kennel and run and thrived. She reared the pups on tinned meat and biscuit and they are really healthy, happy little girls.I don't condemn my relative for how she keeps her dogs, they have a good life on her small holding, it's just how a lot of people in the past kept, bred and reared their dogs and puppies.

I think there is certainly a need for C-Sections, whether some breeders rely on them too much is another matter. Nimue. when you are taking your girls to the vet to be checked, I'm presuming that they have already started labour?

There are people in the US who schedule elective c-sections in breeds that don't usually need them, simply because they are worried about getting to the out of hours vet in time if there is a problem whelping.... I couldn't believe it when I read it.  There's lots of research showing that the puppy going through the birth canal and the squeezing which happens, stimulates all kinds of things from brain development to immune system responses etc etc - without the birth experience, they don't get that.  Obviously it can't be helped if a c-section is needed but just to schedule one because you're worried you can't get to the vet seems insane!

>Nimue. when you are taking your girls to the vet to be checked, I'm presuming that they have already started labour?

>(after around 24+ hours of first stage labor),

like I wrote above 

I would never schedule a c-section unless I were breeding a breed which cannot be born any other way.  I've heard that is the case with French bull dogs, for instance, but I'm not sure.  And there is nothing more wonderful than a natural birth!

Totally.  Opening the sacs was like unwrapping the best Xmas presents.....

Oh, I say this every time!  It's like Christmas!  One wonderful gift after another!

"They just waited and waited for what seemed to me forever and most unwise at that, and others wrote in too, if you remember, urging GO TO THE VET! but they didn't, and it was all just fine in the end!"

I think it depends on the bitch and what is happening at the time. For me - the advice of having the section came from breeders who had smaller breeds or breeds known to require sections. I was already at the vet when I posted about the two newly qualified girls wanting to open my bitch up - one even stated 'I really hope the senior vet comes out and them not be sent to the out of hours surgery, as I can finally assist in a c-section'. To me, that simply screamed 'I want to gain experience in c-sections and your girl is going to be the guinea pig'. I know every vet needs to gain practical experience but I don't agree with it happening on a bitch that doesn't need it.

Those with similar sized breeds - Goldmali and Mixedpack for example, advised to wait it out a little longer - especially as pups were scanned and shown not to be in distress, mum wasn't experiencing inertia and seemed comfortable. This was confirmed by the more experienced emergency vet - who also said my girl was in no way 'too posh to push'. Even after no. 8 was born, I didn't consider us to be out of the woods regarding a section and the x-ray was booked to confirm this - had she still had pups inside at that point, we would have had her opened up but I would have waited for the out of hours to do it - my vet has been on annual leave.

I'm just still in awe over how you managed to hold onto things and how well it turned out!  I wish I had the guts to do that!  Maybe next time.... 

Honestly Nimue - I wouldn't advocate everyone doing what we did - in our case, it was what the situation called for. If the emergency vet had said C section then I would have followed his advice. Same goes for my usual vet.

Also, if I had a breed known to have whelping issues - I wouldn't have had the guts to hold out. I went with what my girl, as well as the vet, were telling me. She had everything in hand and we should trust her. Her face, every time she was put in the car said it all..'sod off you lot, can't you see I'm busy?' If someone had been lugging me about mid labour, I would have punched them!

You do what the situation calls for. It wasn't as if we didn't have funds in place for the section, we knew the risks of rejection, had the equipment required to hand rear pups etc and had done our 'homework'. We are just thankful it wasn't required. As for the loss of pups - some may disagree - but for me, my girl has paramount importance. Even if we had lost the entire litter, her health and well being matters the most.

>Even if we had lost the entire litter, her health and well being matters the most.

Oh, of course it does!!!

> There are people in the US who schedule elective c-sections in breeds that don't usually need them, simply because they are worried about getting to the out of hours vet in time if there is a problem whelping

Definitely true, but the vets there have no obligation to arrange/provide emergency cover, so it can be very hit and miss re out of hours cover.

It's getting like that here, my vets emergency cover is the Vets Now clinic held at a vets the other side of Bristol, it's at least a 20 minute drive late at night or weekend and early evening on a weekday a lot longer.

I know of at least one breeder in my breed who schedules C sections for her won convenience so she knows when she needs to be available!!!  This for a very natural breed, thankfully this even there is not common.

I agree with oru KC ruling that a bitch should not have another litter after

> There are people in the US who schedule elective c-sections in breeds that don't usually need them, simply because they are worried about getting to the out of hours vet in time if there is a problem whelping

Definitely true, but the vets there have no obligation to arrange/provide emergency cover, so it can be very hit and miss re out of hours cover.

It's getting like that here, my vets emergency cover is the Vets Now clinic held at a vets the other side of Bristol, it's at least a 20 minute drive late at night or weekend and early evening on a weekday a lot longer.

I know of at least one breeder in my breed who schedules C sections for her won convenience so she knows when she needs to be available!!!  This for a very natural breed, thankfully this even there is not common.

I agree with oru KC ruling that a bitch should not have another litter after TWO C SECTIONS

This has been an interesting discussion to read. The csection rate in humans is certainly on the rise, the reason often given as "failure to progress" which is actually "failure to wait".

A woman I knew at a toddler group and I had very similar second labours, her in a major teaching hospital, me at home.

Very slow onset of very infrequent, irregular contractions of variable length and strength.

She went to hospital, I texted my midwife and went to bed.

In hospital the staff decided it was "too slow for a second labour" and augmented the labour with pitocin (oxytocin). At home I woke up every 12-30minutes, had a moan/moo and went back to sleep.

In hospital her baby's heart rate began to climb. A staff member decided they were accelerations due to the mother's pain/adrenaline (which was increased due to the augmentation, I don't know about in dogs but labour in humans is reported to be 70% more painful with pitocin). An epidural was given. At home I got in the bath, noticed I was grunting at the peaks of still very infrequent contractions and phoned my midwife to attend.

In hospital her baby's heart rate became very fast during contractions, which were nearly continuous due to the pitocin. They decided to do a csection. At home my baby's heart rate became very fast during contractions which were still only coming every 6-10 minutes, despite me now being ready to push. I pushed for six minutes (two contractions) and she was born with apgars of 10 and 10.

Tragically her baby's heart rate dropped suddenly to 40bpm (normal is 120) on the way to theatre, she was given a general anaesthetic as her epidural was deemed insufficient. Her baby boy was delivered eleven minutes after the crash, and never took a breath.

Both of our babies had true knots tied in their cords. Descent towards the birth canal was pulling the knots tight, cutting off the blood supply. A knotted cord makes stillbirth 5x more likely. I don't know if her baby could ever have been born in the normal way safely, but she later found out that the Dr looking after her "needed" an augmentation for their training and she successfully sued for malpractice, her lawyer arguing that there was no medical indication for her being augmented in the first place and the augmentation being instrumental in the death of the child (who, their medical experts argued, would not have crashed so dramatically were it not for the strong almost continuous contractions due to the pitocin and even if needed to be born by csection, would have survived). Of course it cannot bring her precious son back but it brought her some peace to send the message that "do nothing" is sometimes the safest option.

This was a huge ramble and human birth is not dog birth (though all mammalian births have similarities of course) but I do wonder if the extent to which medical people try to "manage" things makes the biggest difference. It certainly does in humans. I too remember as a child that generally at least one puppy was lost in a litter and it was quite normal. Likewise lots of dogs I knew as a child never saw the vet through pregnancy or whelping, and it was regarded as a normal part of being a dog. I wonder if seeing the vet makes vets feel they ought to act, to be useful. Or as gsdowner found, to advance their own training/experience. As my midwife would say, don't just do something, stand there!

> As for the loss of pups - some may disagree - but for me, my girl has paramount importance. Even if we had lost the entire litter, her health and well being matters the most.

So very, very important that breeders keep this in mind.  For any section I have always said to the vet "Whatever happens, make sure that my girl is ok."  If that isn't our viewpoint what the hell are we doing owning a dog.

As the vet on call said - we (as in all mammals) have been doing this for centuries - let her get on with it. When she's had enough you'll know - she WILL tell you. A bond between a bitch and her owner is 'almost' as primal as that between a bitch and her pups. For her, YOU are HER mother and she WILL trust you with not only her life but also that of her offspring.

Boy do I wish this vet did normal hour surgeries. I'd follow him to the ends of the earth and back!

Extremely sad for all concerned. 

I'm a hospital midwife and would just like to say that at my unit we try and encourage women with low risk pregnancies to stay at home until they are having strong regular contractions, three every 10 minutes lasting for a minute for first time mums and two every 10 minutes for second and subsequent babies.  Research shows that if women are in spontaneous established labour when they reach hospital that they will most likely have a normal vaginal birth. 

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had X-ray vision for all forms of labour and birth, hindsight is a 'marvellous' thing.

I think (though am not sure) that she was kept in as she was dilated to 6cm when she arrived, despite the irregular contractions. 

I self-VE'd (which i'm sure sounds but my first labour was only 84minutes long, and i didn't want to give birth unassisted so was very well-versed in how to assess what was going on, and booked with an independent midwife as she lives 12 minutes away whereas the nearest place i could give birth is 25 minutes) and was about an 8 in my own estimation when i called my midwife, though possibly i was only feeling an anterior lip, i couldn't reach very far back!  At that point my contractions were 1:8-10, lasting 30-45 seconds.  I basically think, of course in retrospect, that the baby was holding the labour back to where she could cope with it.  She was still at spines 6 minutes before she was born, and did all her descent in that last bit.  Also, very odd, i pushed between contractions (with a massive urge to) - i could feel her pushing hard with her feet/legs at the fundus and her head moving down and it made me push even without a contraction.  I can remember doing so and thinking i'd have a prolapse ahead of me now (remains to be seen, okay so far!).  She and my eldest were both born direct anterior too, though my 9lb son obviously couldn't pull such a move and came the usual way and restituted for his shoulders (which was nice because i tore a little with the girls but not with him).

It was hard to assess what to write when it came to my notes.  My IM decided to count from when i was uncomfortable enough to get in the bath, which left my labour (1st and 2nd stages) at 67 minutes, but that was only the last 8 contractions.  I'd had 3-5 an hour for about 5 hours prior to that, and must have been dilating.  As my midwife said, "there's always one!". 

I am basically a terrible person to care for.  The first was almost born into the toilet as the poor midwife who had VE'd me only 90 minutes earlier and found me to be 2-3 and 75% effaced sent me to try to wee.  I had been begging for another VE as i wanted to push (she was OP at that first VE and they thought that was why i felt pushy) and her head crowned when i sat down.  I waddled back to my bedroom, where the midwives were deciding to VE me and discussing whether or not to transfer me in if i hadn't progressed (my membranes had gone some hours before all this).  The looks on their faces when i lay down for my VE and they saw no V to E was hilarious!  The first on call was a pro though, and managed to get her gloves on in time.

The 3rd was a 77 minute labour, massive deformed placenta (the 2nd's placenta was also weird, heart shaped with a marginal AND velamentous insertion, aside from the knot) which refused to come then came with a piece missing, PPH, transfer in, about 1500cc lost (i was okay, i'd been taking iron for months, good idea for homebirths), then a fortnight later i had a uterine infection which presented completely abnormally, a secondary PPH and another night in hospital.  After that wild card the shop is shut.

X-ray vision or rather the crystal ball would be very useful in all kinds of labour.  One benefit i think the breeders here have is that they know their dogs, and are likely to be best placed to know if things are okay or not.  My first birth went as it did i think because i'd never met the midwife before (i was being cared for by a community team but she was providing emergency cover).  My partner kept saying "I think this is it, i think this is it!" but they didn't know us so couldn't assess how i seemed vs how i normally am, and i'm sure lots of men get carried away and say things like that.  My IM, having spent hours with me by then, was running down the stairs, car keys in hand, as soon as she heard my (probably slightly strangled) voice.  Continuity of care has a lot to be said for it, i think.

I had a vet who admitted my bitch for a C.Section which I assumed he would do.   One big puppy was delivered naturally followed by another who didn't survive.   After that gawd knows what happened but at the time I thought she was in the best place........ she wasn't because when the locum arrived the next morning she 'found' the live puppy in a pen and went to see what was going on with his mum, apparently in a kennel 'out back' SHUT DOWN.    She had to do an immediate C.Section but the end result was of the 9 puppies she had, only 4 survived.   And we jolly nearly lost mum too.

So much for letting nature take it's course.

Indeed, sometimes nature lets us down.

Why would the vet admit your girl for a section, let you think that was what was happening and then not do one???

Surely he should have kept you informed at all times? I am stunned. Did you take matters further?

> Surely he should have kept you informed at all times? I am stunned. Did you take matters further?

Yep.   We sued.   But as said we had to settle out of Court, on advice from our lawyer and the judge.   How do you quantify the value of puppies from a visiting American Champion who had gone back to the States prior to the birth of the puppies, and out of our Canadian-bred UK Champion bitch who came back from Canada with us and 6 others.   We were not charged for the eventual Section and wouldn't have paid in any case.  The vet we usually saw was right behind us re suing too.   And we had Mike Stockman on our side too.   I imagine the Practice Insurance went through the roof.   The Senior Partner retired soon afterwards I gather - we'd move on by then!!!