Hello there,

I have a beautiful 3 yr old bitch she went to stud for the first time and had a slip mating on the 13th of march again on the 15th of march both times she had a slip mating, she then went again on the 18th of march and had a tie mating.

She was scanned on the 12th of april which by last mating would have been 3 weeks 4 days since that date.

Scan showed no signs of pups, my girl by this time was being sick in the mornings had enlarged nipples and was eating like no tomorrow and gained a vast amount. I was told at the time that she was having a phantom and it would die down.

She is still large has lost hair around her nipples and eating for England, She is showing no signs of collecting objects or making dens. i wondered if anyone thought the scan may have missed puppies or is just a long drawn out phantom?

I have a vet appointment for monday but i am some what worried as if she is she would be around 56 days gone and i have nothing prepared!

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated my girls breeder has now retired and is from dubai so it is hard to contact her with my many worries.

Thank you in advance  edited as i have since read i should not write my girls breed

> i am some what worried as if she is she would be around 56 days gone and i have nothing prepared!<br />

My bitches whelp on day 56.  I get everything prepared once mated.  If no pups then fine, but having nothing prepared would worry me to death.  What if she went into labour tonight?

does your vet have 24hour emergany line for weekends that you can call explaine to vet whats happing and ask if vet can give you emergany appt tonite or tomm just incase she whelps in next 48hrs it would give you peace of mind and get things orgised asap

hello thanks for the replies

when i say nothing prepared i mean its not all set out and i dont feel ready if that makes sense ( i have a warming box whelping box and replacement milk and bottles and all the other bits and pieces  ) I've also read a few books on puppy whelping and intensive care i am just debating if i should set it all out in case

I have phoned my out of hours vet who's response was she will be fine until monday I'm concerned now and my phone another vet in my area

do you think its likely the scan was too early ? she seems to be much stockier on the ribs and chest

It's more likely she took from the tie (the slip matings could have been due to her not being ready) and a scan at 25 days is far too early. Sounds like you better hurry up and get ready for pups!

i have rung my vets back and insisted she is seen she on the out call list for this evening

I don't have any advice other than to say that at 3 weeks-ish, she should not be eating loads and 'gaining a vast amount'

The puppies would really not be anything other than blobs by that time, and extra food isn't needed until the 5th week.  It's quite possible she was having a phantom and instead of reducing/limiting food (or at least not increasing it yet), you've increased it and fanned the flames of it... and will also have a lot of weight to shift!  My girl is Day 21 now and hasn't put on anything noticeable whatsoever.  I'm sure she would eat for England if given a chance (due to her breed), but I'm not giving her any extra until around week 5, or when the rapid growth period starts....

I do hope your girl is pregnant!

Thank you everyone it was hard to know what to do for the best as she was acting starved all the time as long as she is ok after it all then thats the best i can hope for. I'm not convinced either way the scanning lady was so fast and said no not pregnant must be a phantom so quite confused.

I'm an experienced breeder and I've never met a vet that had delivered a normal whelping.  Vets are not breeders.  They are experienced in carrying out emergency C-sections.  So, meeting bitches after a problem occurs.

My advice is to prepare everything as if you were going to deliver tomorrow.  Try and wind yourself down.  Your girl doesn't need to pick up on your anxiety.

Good Luck - I hope she did take for you. 

By the way,, have you delivered a litter before?  Have you got TBOTB, it's a breeders bible.

hello yes i have I'm a little rusty though but have my copy of book of the bitch and a few others so feel fairly confident fingers crossed she is i would be thrilled, I have hubby digging out my things now

How experienced was your scanning lady?  Did she come recommended by other people you trust? 

I think it is hard to tell at 25 days from what I can read online (that's where we are at the moment), but it's possible if they are good.  It becomes easier around 30 days, from what I can fathom... we're not scanning though...

If you hadn't scanned, you'd be pretty sure, right?  I'd go by that....

Hello there yes she comes recommended lovely lady but i have read since it may have been too early and as my girl tied on the last mating i would have thought that would be have the most likely have be the successful day.

i would have put money on her being pregnant if she hadn't had been scanned I'm going to prepare now and if she's not then least i have been prepared and put it down to good practice

I suppose this will be met with great disapproval in general, but I can't help it, this is what we do here in Switzerland:  We make an Ex-ray (ONE shot) during the last week of pregnancy basically to count the puppies (at least in my small breed this is the main reason).  You could certainly have this done on Monday, and then you would KNOW.  You say that on Monday you will be at 56 days, right?

i have known of xray to be done as well .it may of been to early to scan or inexperinced scan person
i have known this to happen in horses the scan does not pick up feotus etc

i really hope everything goes well if i was you i would keep phoning vet until they listen and be their on monday when they open and demand 2nd 3rd 4th opioman

hello yes she would be 56 days if she took on the last mating the vet i spoke to who is coming out said they would check her over today but most likely would need to X-ray or blood test her still on monday she should be here shortly.

Why x-ray, why not ultrasound?

No radiation involved in ultrasound and surely they can't miss it this far along!

You might not get the number right but will know if she is pregnant. 

On the other hand, you can just watch and wait... I mean, if you're prepared anyway, why rush in with more stressful tests just now?  It's going to happen, or it's not... unless you need to know for practical life-planning reasons, of course.

All bitches are different but I have one with pups just now, this is her second litter and on both occasions she has eaten me out of house and home from pretty much as soon as she was mated.  You may have been a bit early for a scan, I use a fantastic scanner but he likes them to be 4 weeks by the time of the scan, on this litter he felt she was not quite 28 days but more like 26, he was still accurate with numbers though.

she said that ultrasound is not always fool proof if she has only one pup or they are very high up in her rib cage, i work from home so am home with her all the time, so as long as she is well i am happy whatever happens

My girl is 55 days today and I can feel the puppies moving around when I leave my hand on her abdomen, not massive big movements but you can feel them.  I'm lucky I also have a sonicaid (for listening to human babies heartbeats, I'm a midwife) so I've been able to listen in on them

Why x-ray, why not ultrasound?

Because with the ex-ray you see the BONES very clearly.  Therefore you can pretty accurately count heads and spines!  I do it every time (23 years), have never had a single problem because of it, and I know when the birth has finished (usually).  Believe me, veterinary medicine is quite well-developed in Switzerland! 

I would prepare for puppies but my experience is that if they show signs of pregnancy early 2-3 weeks from mating then they are likely to be having a phantom, I have had bitches x-rayed during whelping as my large breed tend to secondary uterine inertia and it's hard to tell if they have more puppies or what the placement is so it could be detrimental to give oxytocin. Fingers crossed for you

Never rule out a successful result from slip matings.   One of my boys never achieved a tie, but he only missed to one bitch who came to him - she came back on her next season and was mated to my other male (tie), and missed.   She was then taken to yet another male not with me, and..... same result.   At that point it was dawning on the owner that her bitch wasn't meant to have puppies!!   He wasn't allowed to be used that often, but enough to prove a slip-tie can work even if breeders prefer to see a tie.

I would, personally, have set everything up for a litter, neg.scan or not.   Have you seen/felt ANY movement in her?   Should have, from around week 7 much as some keep it a secret to the point any puppy (could be just the one) drops prior to being whelped.

As for scans (not for me) vs x-ray.   If nothing happened within 2 days over (my breed), I'd take my bitches in to be examined at which point if there was any early sign of whelping (mine would often go to secondary inertia even if they'd had mild contractions - very much an 'ouch mum' situation), my vet would give a pit.shot.   If nothing happened then they would x-ray to confirm the situation.   X-ray is way more accurate than a scan.   And really quite safe, if done at the end of the pregnancy especially.

Any phantoms we've ever had (not often) really didn't present as such until after the due date, when the bitch would have been nursing.

Ridgeback09:

Eager to hear:  Is she or isn't she?

still unsure until monday the vet not convinced either way I'm all set up though.

i haven't felt any movement but the vet has said thats common for a first litter for her breed so il know tomorrow either way

I can't help but wonder how your vet could know that.  Is he/she that familiar with ridgebacks?  (Not much secret as to which breed is yours! )  Looking forward to hearing the outcome tomorrow!

I never scan.  But an x-ray this late in pregnancy will show up any presentation problems.  It's been life saving twice for me so would encourage anyone to go for it.

If it's an emergency or an x-ray is really indicated (like in this situation), then there is probably a case for it.

But to routinely X-ray at every pregnancy, as Nimue says - I'd never do that, even to know the number of pups.  It's exposing the dog and all the puppies to x-rays over the ovaries and uterus, as well as neonatal ovaries/testicles and uteruses!  We already know that children who are exposed to radiation (through CT scans or x-rays) suffer much increased chances of developing cancer later in life - so the younger the exposure, the greater the effects.

When pregnant women are x-rayed, they wear lead aprons to protect their unborn babies...

I know that it is routinely done by some breeders in the US and other countries, but I would never x-ray as routine.  I can totally see the reasoning for ultrasounds as routine, since they don't involve radiation.

I can totally see the reasoning for ultrasounds as routine, since they don't involve radiation.

Nor sedation or GA, and you can see if the pups are actually alive.

she said that she knew the breed well but i have news --- I JUST FELT and SAW MOVEMENT xxxxxxx WE ARE WITH PUP

Congratulations!

thank you very much- and to you all for all your friendly advice and help over the last 24 hours made me feel like i had a lot of knowledgeable back up it was very much appreciated.   i will update when i have more news

OMG that's so excellent, congrats

yepppeeeee thats fab news

Woo hoo, congratulations, our puppies will be due at the same time.  Very exciting

Told you so LOL. Hope all goes well.

how did your girl get on at vets did they do xray or scan to see how many babies she carrying ??

How exciting for you.  CONGRATULATIONS.

Thanks everyone she has four seen on scan !! where she has hid them i don't know lol very excited.

thats great news must of been so exciting to see babies on screan
have you got everything ready

Yes we are all ready and waiting very excited

It just goes to show, you can never quite trust scan results!!  (One way or the other!)

i may be in need of  a hard hat ready for  reactions of this but i took her for an X-ray today no for seeable presentation problems and five skeletons seen 

thats great that xray pickex up five babies and everything well.with them

yes an extra one then scan said not long now

Hi Ridgeback09
I have Ridgies too :) How exciting! Any news yet?

not yet ! I'm on tenterhooks, i love the breed so much this is her first litter

I can feel your excitement!!!!  

As I said earlier, x-rays have shown malpresentations for me and I could easily have lost bitches without this wonderful help. 

I remember one bitch giving birth to one pup, and totally gave up.  It's always out of hours isn't it?  I took my bitch to the vet, saw one that I didn't know, but had Dopram in my pocket if I needed it.  She was given oxytocin and eventually had a pup.  Then she gave up again, and he made me wait ages before she had a second shot.  Eventually she had another, but was tired out.  I dealt with the cord and shook him to try and clear snot out of lungs, and gave him Dopram.  I examined her and told the vet that she had one more to come.  He examined her and told me that she had finished.  I checked her again and insisted that there was another pup.  He told me that it was her spleen.  So I asked very politely for an x-ray.  By this time he was peed off with me and insisted on a scan (just to be sarky.)

As soon as I saw the heartbeat I said Section NOW.  He hated me forever after mind, but I didn't care.  So we had 4 pups in all.  I can imagine your excitement after doubting that your girl had taken.  Do let us all know how it goes please. 

> But to routinely X-ray at every pregnancy,

It does seem to be standard practice in other countries, certainly USA Scandinavia - perhaps they don't charge the earth for x-rays as they seem to here???

> she has four seen on scan !!

I would assume more than that they will be large and crowded so not easily picked up individually in the scanner window, unless they were trying to count specifically.

Whenever I have had scans the number has usually been twice what was immediately apparent, but then I have never asked for a count.

Do you know the size of her mothers litters?

>perhaps they don't charge the earth for x-rays as they seem to here???

How much is it here, and how much in other countries, anyone know?