Hi

My dog has come into season and is to be mated, I had a horrendous experience last year when her puppies were born not fully formed and am obviously wanting to do things exactly right - btw last time I followed the advice of a reputable breeder who said no to testing and jabs - let nature take it's course.

My vet says not to do either - he thinks the process of her having blood taken would be too stressful.

The stud owner I am going with also says no point but advised a short course of antibiotics just before she is mated.

Others - and believe me I have sought lots of advice - vary tremendously from giving folic acid; vit E; raspberry leaves; do give hep jab; don't can cause loss of litter; most say no to progesterone testing but yes to using ovulation strips.

I am getting the antibiotics and am veering towards the hep jab.

Wish there was just one straightforward answer to all this.

I have gone for the Herpes jab, just to be on the safe side. Have bred twice before and never used it but think it's a wise precaution? I didn't do Progest. testing as the stud dog owner let my girl have a honeymoon there. So she arrived, had a couple of days when she wasn't interested and was then mated every other day until she wasn't interested anymore.

Hi

I always get the herpes vaccine once 7 days after mating and once 10 days before she is due. I would never not have it done.

With testing I own my own stud and still test, for the sake of £30 why would you not want to know when your girl is at her best to be mated??

Each to there own I guess, you will get lots of different advice

Have just been to vets to order antibiotics and have decided to go for the herpes jab too. Progesterone testing vet saying would need to be done every other day from day 10 and would be £60 each time - they still say just take her to the stud when she seems ready. I won't leave her there but will travel and stay nearby for a few days - vet says she will only stand when ready but I'm sure I've read that this is not always the case.

Just been reading up on fading puppy syndrome - apparently prog testing can help avoid this???

Think I need to stop reading - getting more confused the more I read.

Ha ha, you sound like where I am permanently... Although I feel like I have all the info/facts it is possible to get now, yet sometimes am no nearer answers about how to play things.  (We hope to mate our girl in 2 months.)

Antibiotics - I wouldn't use these unless there is a good reason, like the vet thinks the reason for what happened last time could be down to an infection.  In which case, giving her the antibiotics now and before mating should clear up any infection suspected, so I'm not sure what the point is of giving them during pregnancy/mating.

Herpes jab - We are doing this, although I need to tell my vet to get it in because they don't routinely stock it.  Don't leave it to the last minute as they usually need to order it in.

Progesterone testing - Having occupied the position of "definitely doing this, no doubt about it", we are now not going to do it.  Besides the stress issues you've mentioned for the bitch (also just before we take a big trip to the stud), and the expense, we also live somewhere that we don't get results back until 48hrs later sometimes and we have a ferry to book.  We spoke to someone here with our breed who has taken a bunch of trips after testing to see stud dogs, all were unsuccessful. 

So we are going to go by her signs and by the 'average' fertile days for our breed and we are also going to do the ovulation pads.  I don't think we'll go entirely by the pads (I'm not sure what we'll do if they tell us to go to the stud on day 5, for eg - it is a big trip!) but we'll use them for extra info and to support other decisions.  And maybe, if they prove themselves, we'll rely on them more in the future.  (I did a lot of reading about them and whilst there are some people saying they don't work, there are also MANY MANY people swearing by them, and reviews on FB (which can't be deleted, if they are bad reviews) for them are very positive.)

Thanks Rabid, pleased I'm not the only confused one! The antibiotics are to use before mating - just to ensure she has the best protection from any possible infection.

I have decided to use the Herpes jab - still unsure about prog testing, the stud owner I am going to is top of his field - very laid back and old school, he says just bring her and don't worry. I could leave her there but won't cos she would be stressed and I did that last time and don't know if that may have contributed to the problems so won't take any risks I don't need to. Fortunately I don't have to book a ferry but have to travel 100 miles.

Just talked to the pet scanning woman (who also breeds), she says prog testing is a must if you want to maximise the chances of the best litter. Mentioned the ovulation strips to her - which I have - she says they are rubbish. I have used them yesterday and today (days 5 and 6), not easy to determine colour they actually looked quite pink at first but she can't be ovulating yet- would be better if they went blue or something easier to determine.

Gawd it is easier giving birth myself - much less complicated as I remember!

I freely admit I'm old school, and can't go with all this testing.   I'd also say there was a fad going on when I was still breeding, to put a bitch on a course of broad spectrum antibiotics just before being mated.   When I asked my vet about that, she said what for?   She wasn't about to prescribe antibiotics for a healthy animal!!!   So we didn't.

Getting the Hep jab done would be up to you, but again this wasn't done 'in my day'!!  And personally we never had deformed puppies other than one who was born with a club foot (front) and as most of the weight in my breed is born on the front, we and our vet decided it was going to be kindest to have him quietly put down which was done shortly after birth.  Very sad.    Sometimes in my breed puppies are born with intestines out - seems to have appeared in some bloodlines.    This wasn't put down to anything to do with not giving what is being given these days!

In other words I'm for 'letting nature take it's course' provided a suitable pairing is chosen, and any testing for problems in the breed done ahead of any mating.   Sadly breeding isn't a given which makes being successful such a challenge.

Ovulation strip - totally useless. Save your money

I always do herpes vaccine and progesterone test
Never use antibiotics unless there is proven pathogenic bacteria identified - routine use of antibiotics trigger general resistance and create superbugs. No one should ever use antibiotics just in case Nd no vet should prescribed them. If your worried about pathogenic bacteria have a vaginal swab taken whilst in season and only treat for any pathogens identified.

Thornton - Yes, there are many people who insist on the progesterone testing, but the more I looked into it, the more I heard stories like - people weren't able to wait for the 'ovulated' result, so went on the LH surge (previous stage) and the bitch then hung at that stage (probably) and no puppies were the result. 

Or people spending hundreds of pounds only to end up being told by the test to mate exactly when they would have mated anyway, if they'd done the average days. 

It's something like 2 thirds of bitches will conceive if mated on the 'average' days for their breed - one third is either early or late.  So the odds are pretty good without testing and you save a bunch of money and stress for the bitch.

You can definitely get a mating without any puppies - I mean, some bitches will stand at the wrong time for conception and just getting matings doesn't mean they were at the right time. 

With the ovulation pads, have you looked at their FB page?  They had a load of photos up there of results and how to interpret them - they do indeed go black/blue/purple for a positive result, and if even the edges of them go that colour, it's a positive result.  I wasn't going to use them, but seeing we are not progesterone testing, thought I'd give them a go based on the number of positive reviews.

My vet is very experienced with dog breeding (people travel miles to see him), he always recommends a 5 day course of antibiotics at the start of a season and the herpes vaccines. I've never had to do blood testing as I've always used my own stud. I've heard differing stories on the pads. As they aren't that expensive I've always thought they were worth trying.

Right am doing antibiotics now and herpes jabs after conception and before birth. Am seeing my vet again in the morning and will discuss further the prog test although there is an 'premate' in house option £30 a time instead of £60, apparently it tests on colour - doesn't give actual figure but vet says. 'Good at detecting low or high levels'. Would still need about three tests though - anyone got an opinion on premate tests?

You are reading too much

The in-house tests are immediate results, but they are not as precise as the quantitative progesterone tests sent off to the lab.  You also need to be sure to test early enough, to catch the colour change.  Less important with the Idexx (lab) progesterone tests.

If your vet can get the Idexx results back fast, then that is probably better.  If you live somewhere like I do, then an in-house test might be a better choice.

Frankly, it didn't sound like you had any probs actually getting her pregnant/with timing, last time - so not sure I would pull out all the stops on that front.  Whereas infection/herpes does sound like something potentially relevant??

I would cover all basis but worth speaking to a repro vet as they may have some other suggestions. I was advised not to give ab's until after the first mating and to do herpes as soon as she comes into season and not wait for day 7

Thanks everyone. Yes Pennyfields I am reading too much as Rabid says being in possession of all the info doesn't automatically make reaching the right conclusion easier.

> Right am doing antibiotics now

Again, why give a healthy bitch antibiotics?    And if she's not healthy, don't mate her this time!  Shakes head.   There are huge risks using antibiotics when they are NOT NEEDED, not the least being, as with humans, when they are needed, they don't work!

I agree with Mamabas on that one, especially as I wouldn't want to expose the puppies to ABs - unless absolutely necessary.  But if you've already started them, then continue and don't stop mid-course.

She is in top condition - just following advice from my vet and from the stud owner who has many years experience but like I've said there are so many differing opinions it is difficult. However don't feel I can go against advice from the two main professionals involved

> for the sake of £

but it isn't as you need a series of blood samples for accuracy starting before any chance of ovulation and until ovulation has occurred, on average at least three test samples.

The only time I have ever done it (dominant bitch wanting to play stud and not wanting to hold/restrain a bitch that wasn't ready, but just being silly) and using the in house testing kit, it was £50 each of three blood draws and testing.

Vets around here all charge around £50 to take blood each time, let alone the actual testing.

Less stressful and expensive to board the bitch at or near the stud.