Who watched Best in Show at Crufts last night?  For once I thoroughly agreed with the Judge's verdict - the winner being the gorgeous little Westie - how pretty she was,  I had a Westie for 10 years until she died at 13 and I never managed to get her as white as Devon!

But what did you all think about the German Shepherd?  How on earth did it get judged Best of Breed?  It seemed to be right down on its hocks, almost lame.  I believe there were comments and a lot of concern over the issue.

Snowflake

Was it my imagination but, super show girl as she undoubtedly was, she was small?    Ditto for the Whippet but mine is towards the top of the size scale!

As for the GSD-   I have two questions
1.   Where was the judge that had to put THAT through....... or did something happen since the breed judging (much as I thought they were trying to rule out that hump (banana) back?
2.   Given that this is on the at risk list, how could A VET let it go forward to the Group?

Was it tranqualised because that back end certainly wasn't reacting with the front end!!   It was cow-hocked going away, if nothing else.    Did the judge excuse it the Group ring, or just ignore it.   I gather she couldn't get her hands on it?   Yet another Crufts drama eh.   Too bad, for the 'show-case' Show of the season.

Am really sorry i would have james bis and beatful whippit rbis
the westie was lovely girl moved beatfulfly beatfulfly turned out
but for james gorden setter out moved everyone stunning beatful dog
sorry if i upset anyone

as for german shepard shocking !!!!! Could they have handler fault to
will be intresting to see what happens in investigantion
i now when horses are doped they can hardly move.lower lip drops glaclased eyes

more poo for anti crufts people

I'm with you re the Gordon Setter - now THAT'S a DOG!!!   If you are upsetting people, so am I

Looking at the results online, the photo of the GSD bitch winner looks okay apart from the wretched banana back (ROACH).   I wonder if she had been drugged (on purpose or otherwise?)

And then there's that terrible tail on the Bouvier.    Ridiculous!

Don't normally watch the breed side, but was interested to see that judges hands had chalk on them after handling the WHWT, perhaps that is why she was so very white ?

But that Border Collie, OMG how could anyone describe it as typical of the breed, a very heavily boned dog, that stood cow hocked in the finale & the handler kept trying to straighten the rear pasterns. None of mine have ever looked like that, looked to be a small bitch rather than a dog

Wonder why the Gordon Setter is so popular, he has HD, his parents have HD & he sires dogs with HD. How very worrying for the breed that so many have bad hips

The Gordon Setter was my choice too, he was lovely! But I didn't know about the HD. And I was shocked by the GSD too, it just didn't look right. It seemed very unhappy and bunched up. I was there on Friday watching the Golden Retrievers (naturally!!) so many beautiful dogs including the one in the group final. Yet one has never won in 126 years, seems strange to me. I haven't seen one in the final seven either although I concede I haven't watched every single final.

I was shouting at tv during bis saying go on that boy when gorden powerd round that ring he owned that ring bl..... Amazing dog felt really sorry for david alcron him and james bl..... Amazing !!!!

Just bought two papers to see whats in them about crufts but got side tracked by pict of ap and morestead re cheltenham

What do you mean he has HD, has he been operated on for the condition and likewise his parents and the same for his offspring? Or is this just hearsay being banded around

I will admit to the BC not being my cup of tea but small he isn't Silvia is a rather tall lady and a head like that on a bitch come on Dianne LOL

Sound like hearsay to me!  Hips are 27, sires 27, dam 17 and no results for progeny.  Perhaps a little higher than people would like although I have no knowledge of the breed average for the Gordons. Not displastic though.

Their video of gsd bob on you tube
for anyone wanting to see it etc
found it when i was lookin for pointer bob to send to friend

> Their video of gsd bob on you tube <br />for anyone wanting to see it etc <br />found it when i was lookin for pointer bob to send to friend

I've just sat and watched the BOB judging of the GSDs.    Conclusion - the bitch was IN SEASON.   The male, who was for strange reason allowed to be following her round the ring, was barking the whole time, and tugging to get at her.   She knew and was well spooked much as I think she may well have been coming up to standing heat.    Further, when my girls were in season, with their vulvas at max. swelling, they didn't move well!

Not making excuses because I hate that banana back (roach) but going by the male's behaviour alone, took me to 'in season'.

But what a shame to be playing into the hands of the antis who are already having a field day with this one.

Did the Gordon have bad hips, or just the breed in general?    The BC did seem small (on the leg) and heavier than a working Collie, but that may be working v show stock.    Were the judges' hands white (powder) from the Westie?    Chalking isn't allowed as I was told by fellow exhibitors when I first started showing my hounds back in the UK from Canada (where we did this!).

Their was gsd class at magnum couple weeks ago none of them had dipped back

i thought you were not allowed to.show bitch in seson

i was just told not to chalk hector legs

wonder if westie lady uses diamond white as that bring coat up pure whitw
e
when i should clyd and shires i used lux soup flakes and diamond white to bring legs up pure white

still use lux and diamond white when i am bathing hector he such dirty.dog he loves digging and rolling in mud horse poo

There's no rule to prevent showing bitches in season (at least not when I was out there!) but even if out of respect for fellow exhibitors, most people wouldn't - too much risk of infection when a b itch is 'wide open' (especially with my low to ground girls!)

I used Bright White (Ring 5) on my lighter tricolours (more white) but usually their Black Out.   Both worked well to enhance any colouring.

Just to add that poor GSD bitch must have had a horrible day at Crufrts IF she was in season ...... for what?   To satisfy her owner's ego?   Well that went well.

Yes looked him up now, while not the greatest hip score its far from horrendous. None of his progeny have been scored so bit of an odd comment there then.

Loved that sparkly little Westie! I also rather fancied the Spitz though. Was not at all keen on the GSD!!!! (or the Peke!) And yes, watching the BOB judging I would bet she was in season!

Bright white good for bringing up legs and coats too

their been nothing in daily mail re crufts but daily record had pict of westie in ladys arms

will be intresting to see whats in dog papers wonder if kc will make inveztigiom puplic ie in to why who etc the vet bred judge allowed gsd throw

the male german shepherd had horrible back and moved badly too .  disappointing a judge put those two up.  Prehapse she is a wonderful shape when not in season but the judge is supposed to judge what is in front of him, not what might be next week or was last week and what was in front of him looked very poor.

Its now headline news daily mail on line saying crulty etc
and their pitation to get bred banned from shows ie gsd

Nobody at my office seems to have even noticed Crufts has been and gone....

Eh ???? A score of 0 is NOT dysplasic, a score of 27 IS dysplasic.

QED

Another heads up gsd owner just done story in daily mail saying her dog is healthy and nothing wrong with it

> Another heads up gsd owner just done story in daily mail saying her dog is healthy and nothing wrong with it

Clearly eh - or was the dog seen in the Breed Ring (BOB judging video) and the Group a DIFFERENT DOG????????????

I need to hear whether she was in season or not.

Articles in the Daily Wail should be in one place only - and that's not being bought and read!

> Its now headline news daily mail on line saying crulty etc <br />and their pitation to get bred banned from shows ie gsd

And what good would that do?    Pushing the problem underground??    Far better they continue to be shown, AND CORRECTLY JUDGED.

Sadly by the time most judges get an invitation to do Crufts, they are well 'past it'.   I'd question whether they are blind (should have gone to Specsavers).    That exhibitor(s - the male too ) should have known better than to put their animals in the ring.   Particularly if the bitch was in season - no male would show well being right next to a bitch in season for starters.   And with some of my own bitches, when in full season (with a swollen vulva) this badly affected their movement.

Banning the GSD from being shown is NOT an answer.    Not rewarding the unwanted faults is.

Well said !!!!!
Its same in heavy horses its old people judging if its certian judge you now hows going to win its old boys network etc
got so sick of it i stoped showing as it was not worth time effort money when its faces not horse been judged

i show my pointers for fun for me its day out if we get placed its bonus but do get fed up when people say your dog should of been placed higher all i say is thank you for your comment but in my head i am saying do not really care as long as we have fun

i spent 27yrs heard work 2 back surgarys of showing heavys at top level
when have time its old boys network etc
its time young people were given a chance to judge get new genartioms judging and veiws etc

Possibly but comparing him to a small bitch hmmm

The German shepherd judge was Dave hall who has and shows that type of dog, it shows the extreme German type but the owners and judges of that type believe that it is correct and everything else is wrong, and that is the problem.

I grew up with them Mum did obedience working trails and agility with them in fact my first breed dog was one, but the type called middle of the road or the way they looked in the sixties and seventies before both extreme types came to be.  We changed to corgi s because to have a dog the type to do well with we would not give house room to, Germanic are hyper active nutcases English type far to big and heavy neither type could work sheep which is what they where bred to do

Lucy

I think I am the only person (apart from you)  I know (including dog walking friends and family) who is glued to Crufts.  Haven't seen anything in the paper (Times) about it - but  Devon the little Westie was on Breakfast TV (BBC) yesterdayI believe,   but I missed it.  I think it is lovely to see breeds of dogs that you  never ever get to see around your local area.  It was interesting too that it was reported that some breeds are "dying out" because of the popularity of the "Designer Dogs"

I was pleased to see that the little Sheltie did  very well,  I think it was pulled out for the short list for BIS.  (I am a besotted sheltie owner).

Snowflake

What Sheltie in BIS it was shortlisted in the group is that what you mean the border collie won the group

Do you mean Best in Pastoral Group, the BC was small but not that small

> Wonder why the Gordon Setter is so popular, he has HD, his parents have HD & he sires dogs with HD

are you saying he has high scores or is actually dysplastic, as if he had hip surgery then he could not be shown.

I know that Gordon hips were on the high side some years ago, but assumed they were coming down steadily.

Just checked MYKC and he is a bit on high side at 27, (Americans would class him just into the Mild dysplasia category, with our scores roughly of 18 - 25 being borderline) but his offspring are between a total of 3 and 12 so very good.

Offspring results must just have come, they were not there when i checked.

Due to whats been said im papers etc my gran w def wont be supporting me at shows been trying to get gran to come to show when i was showing horses she was their every weekend at shows with horses and papa competing in farriery comp
my gran w had jack terrors all her life as pets
i am only perzon in family that shown dogs
gran said she was really shocked when she seen and heard about crufts etc she thinks all dog show people are crooked i have tried to explain that gsd was one off and show dog people are so lovely and def not crooked or cruel
i tried to explain etc but gran said no she def not going to suport me showing pointers

this just shows how neg comments can split family views etc

Sire comes in at 17, and dam same as her son at 27.  I know the mean was 23 about 15 years ago, so a little leeway has to be used  so as not to narrow the gene pool too far, (there's a difference between radiographic perfection and functional norms, even if the scores in this breed may mean some stiffness and loss of soundness with age, compared to better scoring breeds), but certainly the offspring results are very respectable.

He has Hip Dysplasia, it's worse than his sire's & the same as his mother's score. This is NOT breeding to improve hips, looking at the 2 generations begin him there is one score of 30 & the rest are better than his score(mother is equal) He has a poor EBV & it will be unlikely that HE will improve the breed hip status, especially as the 3 litters he has recorded have a higher COI than average for the breed ☹ .His COI is marginally higher that the breed average.

It would appear some Gordon Setter breeders are paying lip service to the Hip Status of their breed

Must say I have never looked at EBV's our breed simply hasn't the numbers to have one, and I only looked at him and his parents the the offspring.

> He has Hip Dysplasia

On what do you base this, (I know nothing of the dog himself, but have known the breed as individuals) certainly he is not a clinically affected dog, though the score is higher that would be acceptable at a push in my own breed, but we are lucky in that 90% or more score below 20.

Breedign decisions of course are not the same as shw3o ring ones.  A dog may be outstanding but totally the wrong dog for your bitch and vice versa, a less than stellar example may have qualities tht would improve or solidify something your hoping to achieve with your bitch.

We only have had these tools like MYKC (limited and clunky in use as they are) for just a generation, so I would hope to see steady improvements overall if they are used sensibly especaily in avoiding over use of any lines and help to improve genetic diversity.

Very pleased I got last minute tickets to BIS! So last minute that they were booked Sunday morning... I've been attending Crufts for 12 years and never thought I'd see the day a Westie took BIS, funny the year I wasn't going they did? I'm very pleased I got those tickets as I have an OAP Westie here.

Something I thought was odd - 1990 Ch Olac Moon Pilot took BIS. The dog reserve to him? A Whippet.

They do say history repeats itself

What do I base it on ? Perfect unaffected hips are scored 0:0=0, under the old scheme scores up to 4:4=8 were given a Breeders letter, anything higher that 5 on either hip was a fail.

This dog scores more than twice this & no way should he be used, given the hip scores behind him. The idea is to breed to LOWER scores & Medians, not to raise them.

Closely watching the GS moving, he does appear to raise his hindquarters slightly upwards in movement thus made me query his construction & start investing his health test results, him movement should be driving forwards not upwards

The reason the scoring was opened up to a more sensible approach was that such tight criteria would leave nothing to breed from.

Your talking radiographic perfection not a perfectly functional normal hip.

My best bitch and sound to the day she died at 15 1/2 (no arthritis still taking the same exercise as the rest) bitch had a score of 15.  She was arguably one of the best movers in the breed, right up to 13.  Her daughter at nearly 3 looks to be likely to be similar, and has a score of 14.

I was a bit disappointed, and it was x-rayed by a vet who rarely did them for BVA submissions, and their daughters and granddaughters have better scores with an orthopaedic vet taking x-rays over the last few generations..

If you use the comparison chart between our scores and the US grading system http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html you will see that our scores of  26  - 35 would merit a grading of Mild dysplasia.  18 - 25 would be borderline and a score of 17 would still rate fair (non dysplastic).

> Possibly but comparing him to a small bitch hmmm

Definitely a male head on that one!