I have just chosen a cocker spaniel puppy, but won't be collecting her until she is 14wks old, due to having pre booked all day 'does', and not wanting to leave her, the breeder has kindly offered to keep her for me, so she will be 14wks old when I collect her. The puppies are currently 9weeks old. When I asked the breeder if her puppies had had their first injections at 8 weeks she said that her vets only do 1 lot of injections at 12 weeks and that's it. Has anyone else heard of this. I'm just a bit concerned that she won't be covered properly and I will have to start all over again.

Any dog aged 10 weeks or older should only be given one vaccination in line with the manufacturer's guidelines. It is all explained within the information leaflet that accompanies every does of the vaccine, this has been the guidelines for many years. Sadly some vets ignore the guidelines as it raises their profits

Puppy vaccinations are best given once at 14-16 weeks that will likely give lifetime immunity - which can be checked by Vaccicheck some weeks later.  If given before the mother's immunity has gone, can prevent the vaccines from taking.
There's a good Facebook group - Canine Health - with lots of information.

Hope you enjoy your pup.

This is fine as far as vaccinations go, but I would be more concerned about socialisation - I have no problems with people who want to delay vax until after 12wks and then give only one, but I always ask them to be honest about whether the way they socialise the puppy will be affected by this decision.  If it is, and if the puppy is going to not be able to be go out and about ASAP, then I would not be in favour of the vaccination situation. 

I say this because far more dogs are PTS for behavioural problems than the number that die from either contracting a contagious disease, or from vaccination-related problems.  Behavioural preventative work (ie socialisation) is more important than either.

Which is why personally, I wouldn't be getting a pup at 14wks... because the socialisation window has largely closed by then and I would be entirely dependent on the breeder to socialise properly and thoroughly - and I don't like to leave something that important up to someone else.

As far as I'm aware, in the UK two sets should be given.   Not just one although of course, one might be enough - titres would need to be checked to establish that.  We did our puppies at 10 weeks, and back in the UK, again 2 weeks later.   After than they were boostered 12 months later.   And now mine are on a 3-yearly booster schedule, apart from the one for Lepto, which I am persuaded to believe dips over a 12 month period and needs boostering annually.  As would, legally, rabies if needed in the UK - currently not.

I have rarely boostered mine beyond around age 7 years.

I'm not sure I'd be happy to go with just one set of puppy vaccination.

"Which is why personally, I wouldn't be getting a pup at 14wks... because the socialisation window has largely closed by then and I would be entirely dependent on the breeder to socialise properly and thoroughly - and I don't like to leave something that important up to someone else. "

This is assuming every breeder isn't aware of this, and doesn't do any 'socialising'.    Who better knows the puppies they produce, or should, than the breeder.    I also have a problem with not vaccinating vs. socialising.  If people relaxed their vaccination schedule, those diseases we rarely see these days, could well start occurring more often.

As others have said once over 12 weeks you can just give one dose, the reason puppies are normaly given two sets is because before the age of 12 weeks there is a higher chance of the puppy still having maternal antibodies which can block the vaccinations from working leaving the puppy unprotected once the maternal antibodies finally go. So pup a are given two sets (and some vets even do three sets) in hopes that if the first set didn't take the second one will. Although it doesn't allways work especialy if both were done under 12 weeks like mine was who my vet said could be done at 8 and 10 weeks.

I believe the vet who did the studies into immunity now only gives his dogs one at 14 weeks old and never gives them anymore.
But if you realy want two sets you can talk to the breeder about it.

Thankyou everyone for all your advice, very much appreciated.

I will put it down to my age, I think, because I didn't quite get it. Thanks to you all I now do.

Yes, socialisation matters a lot.  I'm hoping to get a puppy in the next 6 months. I am certain about the vaccinations not being given too early, if at all. 
I know people who never vaccinate and I am thinking of going down that route.  It makes finding the right pup even more difficult though. Trying to find a breeder who builds up the immune system of at least the bitch and the pups, I think trying to get the same with the stud as well would take years and I'm not getting any younger!
So far as socialising an unvaccinated pup, I think that the same approach should be taken - steadily and gently, allowing the pup to build up resilience to both diseases and life experiences.

> As far as I'm aware, in the UK two sets should be given.   Not just one although of course, one might be enough - titres would need to be checked to establish that.  We did our puppies at 10 weeks, and back in the UK, again 2 weeks later.   After than they were boostered 12 months later.   And now mine are on a 3-yearly booster schedule, apart from the one for Lepto, which I am persuaded to believe dips over a 12 month period and needs boostering annually.  As would, legally, rabies if needed in the UK - currently not.<br />

This is exactly what I do.  I won't have my pups vaccinated early as I have a breed that is content to suckle for far longer than the larger breeds.  10 weeks is plenty early enough, but they go back at 12 weeks for a second jab.  3 yearly booster after, but Lepto done annually.

The core vaccines (Parvo, Hepatitis and distemper) and only need 1 jab of modified live vaccine to be effective once given at an appropriate age. 

A friend of mine in Scotland has her pups only have one vaccination as she doesn't want the lepto after reactions in one of her litters, when her vet read up that is what he decided to do.

Most recently I have done my pups at 10 and 12 weeks, but may go to 10 and 14 weeks (as the ones that need two shots are fine given up to 4 weeks apart).

Vaccination schedules would not alter my socialisation schedule for pups as I start carrying them  around out of the home daily from around 8 weeks (and one at a time before that as a litter).

I would not be taking a pup younger than 12 - 14 weeks to dog heavy venues, walks so that all their early canine experiences are more controlled.  First on ground walks swill be local streets, with low dog frequency in these days whe4r most people seem to drive themselves and their dogs to walking areas, as I don't bump into that many dogs on road walks, and with walking 6 rarely in sniffing distance, much to two of mines very vocal disappointment (probably partly because of the vocal keening ;) ).

I do 1st vax at 7wks, 2nd vax at 10wks, then a booster at 1yo - and no more for the rest of the dog's days.  (Except for rabies, if I need the Pet Passport.)

This is my first ever post so not sure if its in the right place? I have an 11 week old boston terrier who was taken for her first vac last week at 10weeks she has a very slight heart murmer which vet thinks she will grow out of,seconds after the vac was given she completely passed out,I thought she had died,but she had fainted,vet brought her round and gave her "dog lucozade" and 20 mins later she was ok,I was told to keep her warm and continue with the lucozade for the rest of the day.she is ok now but my question is should I take her back for 2nd jab? Also Ive read on her if over 10wks 1jab is sufficient? So should I leave her now?

What did the vet say ?

My bitch is going to go for her second annual booster soon (I've left it 3 years after a reaction to her first annual booster, and I intend to do it 3 yearly now). I am going back to the Nobivac she had for puppy vaccs  as it was Vanguard that she had the reaction to.
My question is - in order to do annual Lepto in between full vaccs, what brand should I be asking for in order to avoid anything Vanguard related ?

Lepto vaccination is the one that causes most negative reactions (some times fatal) unless your dogs are likely to be in regular contact with rat urine I wouldn't vaccinate a dog for it & dogs that have had reactions to any vaccine would never be vaccinated again

>& dogs that have had reactions to any vaccine would never be vaccinated again

I completely agree.  To do otherwise is to play Russian roulette with the dog's life.

I'm in the process of updating all my gang and adding the Lepto 4 as last year was the first year we had an outbreak in this country (too close to me for comfort.)  I've just looked at their cards and I've had a dozen dogs updated so far (all very tiny breed) and I've had no bad reactions.  All my vet uses is Nobivac and I discussed it's safety in depth with him.

I've never had a bad reaction to any booster vaccinations so it's pretty easy for me I guess.

Many pups will still have maternal antibodies circulating I'd go back at 14 weeks for a second vaccination as they can be given up to 4 weeks apart. 

Alternatively you can ask them to do vaccicheck. 

To see if the vaccinations have taken fro the core components.

Vaccinations should only be given to healthy dogs (your dog is obviously not). This is not just my opinion - it is in the manufacturers' guidelines, and any other reasonably reputable source eg WSAVA.

Re: Lepto 2 and/or 4 - the 4 is more dangerous; neither last 12 months; there's at least 250 forms of Leptospyrosis. At least research a lot more before giving these.  A good place to start is Canine Health Concern on Facebook.

I don't believe it's been mentioned and I know it's a little off-topic but just in case anyone is reading this thread and is in this situation: dogs with auto-immune diseases should never be vaccinated again, particularly with some diseases more than others, because it can cause a relapse.  Obviously talk to your vet, but it is a big risk.  Saffi has auto-immune anaemia which is one of the nastier ones - I don't booster my dogs but just in case she were to go missing (fat chance, I can't get rid of her on a walk ), she has a big brass ID tag that clearly says "AUTO-IMMUNE DISEASE - MUST NOT BE VACCINATED".

Facebook Replies:

Steph Hickey says: I'm a small breeder an My vet says 8 weeks then 12 weeks hun, I'd find out who the vet it an ring then to check, don't think ur pup would be covered. But not sure, hope u sort it x

Stephanie Presdee says: I would not start all over again, revisit the area where your breeder is, and revisit the vet for the rest , or find a vet in your area who stocks the same vaccine and follow on.

When a home fell through for one of my pups, I had her until she was 13 weeks old before finding her a suitable forever home. During this time I had started her vaccinations. The previous family had expressed a desire to start them themselves so she had her first at 9 weeks after they realised that cream carpets and puppies don't mix!

The new family's vet was independent and said he would start them again. Thankfully, I had had pup vaccinated at Companion Care that comes under the umbrella of vets4pets. I rang the branch nearest to the new family (different city) and arranged for the 2nd vaccine there. The branch were even happy to do it at the discounted 2nd jab price.

I would never knowingly over vaccinate if at all possible.

The World Small Animal Veterinary Association published new vaccination guidelines on 4th January 2016

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jsap.2_12431/pdf

Yes they have and gosh it's causing more confusion than ever. Follow everything they say and pups will be over vaccinated. Needs to be read very carefully

Goodness, that makes me crazy.

They are really recommending that puppies receive FOUR rounds of initial vaccinations, and then a FIFTH when they are 6 months old (rather than at 1yr)!!!!!!! 

Insane.  Clearly guidelines written by vets.  Guess who is now going to make twice as much per vaccinated animal???  Absolutely bonkers.  And what a shame because the WSAVA had a chance to be the voice of balanced reason in this whole vaccination debate.  Well, not giving them a second further attention and instead am left wading through findings and having to make our own minds up, as usual...

> The World Small Animal Veterinary Association published new vaccination guidelines on 4th January 2016<br />

Executive summary http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1111/jsap.2_12431/
Quote:
"The VGG recognizes that maternally derived antibody (MDA) significantly interferes with the efficacy of most current core vaccines administered to pups and kittens in early life. As the level of MDA varies significantly among litters, the VGG recommends the administration of multiple core vaccine doses to pups and kittens, with the final dose of these being delivered at 16 weeks or older or above and then followed by a booster at 6- or 12-months of age. In cultural or financial situations where a pet animal may only be permitted the benefit of a single vaccination, that vaccination should be with core vaccines at 16 weeks of age or older.

The VGG supports the use of simple in-practice tests for determination of seroconversion to the core vaccine components (CDV, CAV, CPV-2 and FPV) following vaccination, for determination of seroprotection in adult dogs and for management of infectious disease outbreaks in shelters.

Vaccines should not be given needlessly. Core vaccines should not be given any more frequently than every three years after the 6- or 12-month booster injection following the puppy/kitten series, because the duration of immunity (DOI) is many years and may be up to the lifetime of the pet." (my bold)

I'd be very fearful about giving more vaccination if this was the reaction to the first.   BUT I'm not a vet and can only say go by your vet's recommendation, PROVIDED you trust this vet.  And vets can be wrong.   Perhaps you might consider not putting conventional vaccination in but homeopathetic nosodes?   I have a couple buy a puppy from me, at 9 weeks.   I didn't vaccinate mine unti 10 weeks, so he'd not had any and they told me they were going for the nosodes, having had this done with all their previous hounds.   I don't know whether Boarding Kennels will accept dogs vaccinated this way, nor do I understand if there are any associated risks.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/nosodes-can-they-replace-vaccines/

I would say not to vaccinate against lepto could be dicing with 'death' in that even if you think you have no rats around, ten to one there will be because they are EVERYWHERE.

It just looks like it is pushing people to assume a more extremist position - because the upshot of this is a decision between...

1) Don't vaccinate until 16wks and then you can give just one round of jabs - and a booster at 6mnths.  OR

2) Vaccinate from 7/8wks, as currently done - but giving repeating rounds of vaccinations every couple weeks, meaning that a puppy will have 4 rounds of vaccinations - and then a fifth round at 6mnths

Although there already are people advocating 1), and they are happy doing that, a lot of people don't feel 'safe' or that their puppy is adequately protected if they wait till 16wks before vaccinating with anything.  And I don't think vets are going to be very happy about advising people to do that either - if the puppy catches parvo pre-16wks, they are going to be held responsible.  And, regardless of what people say, they WILL try to protect their completely unvaccinated puppy from exposure and socialisation WILL be affected, to some degree - when compared to a fully vaccinated puppy.  So although there will be a minority of people who've educated themselves in the risks involved and have decided to do things via route 1), whatever their vet says, and not sacrifice socialisation - they really will be the minority...

Because the vast majority are going to be worried their pups isn't adequately protected AND are going to want to get fully out and about, they are going to opt for 2) and end up giving even MORE vaccines, if this advice is followed. 

I know the current system isn't perfect, and puppies can slip through the gaps, one way or another, but it does get the vast majority of puppies protected and it compromises on over-vaccination with just 2 rounds of shots. 

The problem now is that people are being advised not to opt for this compromise anymore and are going to feel pushed into more extreme positions via 1) or 2) above - extreme positions in different directions :( 

I'm really pretty shocked and peed off to read this advice. 

PS Mamabas, I've known of 4 dogs which have contracted lepto - and all of them were vaccinated against it.  Given the inefficacy of the vaccine, the fact that it often wears off in 9 mnths instead of a year, and the fact that there are multiple strains of lepto and we can only protect against 4 of them (max), often 2 of them (most vaccines), it's not worth having the vaccination given the high risk of adverse effects for this vaccine when compared to the core vaccines.

> 1) Don't vaccinate until 16wks and then you can give just one round of jabs - and a booster at 6mnths.  OR<br />

It does say booster at 6 months OR 12 months

> I know the current system isn't perfect, and puppies can slip through the gaps, one way or another, but it does get the vast majority of puppies protected and it compromises on over-vaccination with just 2 rounds of shots.

As the jabs can be given 4 weeks apart, if one opts for 12 weeks then 16 weeks (or has a vaccicheck titre test after first jab).

Modified careful socialisation should be fine for any pup to 12 weeks when most can be carried, and at an age where full on exposure to the most high traffic dog areas is not wise or appropriate.

I personally am not vaccinating until 10 weeks these days so may go 10 weeks 9when many pusp are having their final jab) and then 14 weeks for a just in case it didn't take.

As for Lepto with so many different serovars, and the vaccine causing most reactions for little protection (2 - 4 strains) I will opt out of that for Boosters.

My vets are now offering in-house titre testing(at cost) before any vaccinations are done & if you opt not to titre test clients have to sign a waiver.

They are not recently qualified vets either, one had been a vet for over 40 years & she is the one who keeps the surgery up to speed.

No processed  foods offered for sale either, as the senior vet says, they are a veterinary practice not a pet food shop !

But research shows that the socialisation period is largely over by 12wks, so delaying first vaccination to 12wks (assuming the owner is also going to moderate socialisation) is only going to have adverse effects on behaviour and socialisation.

Let's not forget that far, far, far, more dogs are PTS due to behavioural problems than either those having an adverse reaction to a vaccine OR those contracting a disease they weren't vaccinated for.  But even knowing those facts, owners are going to moderate socialisation till vaccinations are finished - even I did(!) (but luckily had 2nd vax at 10wks).

Tommee - sounds amazing, where is this vet?!

> (assuming the owner is also going to moderate socialisation)

Socialisation should and can occur before vaccinations are done, just sensibly and keeping risks low.  this process starts fro when pups are born and intensifies over the rearing period and by the time pups go to new homes pups should have had a lot of experiences, which the new owner simply continues and expands.

Properly reared Pups will not be reared in a vacuum, devoid of stimulation and socialisation, sadly that is the problem with many pups starting out life in commercial or ignorant uncaring breeding environments, from parents with unknown/dubious/unsound temperaments.  That is what results in behavioural issues.

Having known dogs confined to 6 months quarantine come out as sound as a pound friends to all and confident in a busy show environment 3 days after release at 9 months, the lack of socialisation after 9 weeks did no harm to mentally sound dogs.

Ditto pups that I exported into Australian Quarantine where they spent, a month from 14 weeks in one case, and 11 weeks in the other (but I had done my job properly as the breeder).

After all unless we stay at home and never leave the house the pup will be exposed to what we are.

Do you really take pups at that tender age to where out of control mass numbers of other dogs would be?  Dog shows etc?

Those are the high risk areas I would not dream of taking a pup before 4 months. 

Prior to that they would be socialised to all the human environment stuff (traffic, people, etc), my own dogs and known dogs.

The dog training ringcraft, show and country park would come later, when immune system/vaccination status reduce risk, and would be the more risky environments for disease.

There is a lot of rubbish written about socialisation, a little quality socialisation is far better than masses of poor quality. For example "Puppy parties" teach puppies nothing about dog to dog behaviour if there are no adult dogs present, puppies need to mix with adult dogs to learn dog body language & appropriate behaviour, mixing solely with other puppies frequently leads to "learned"poor behaviour.

As other have written most dogs that went through quarantine as young puppies came out with no behavioural problems, older dogs used to home life have far more problems after 6 months of quarantine.

Look at the Romanian puppies that come over(or any other "imported puppies")they will more than likely spent all their lives in kennels with masses of other dogs & not received much in the way of good human contact, yet 99% have no temperament problems & are outgoing dogs.

My vets are in remote rural Wales & yes they are brilliant. A bit like the American Dr Pol

> As other have written most dogs that went through quarantine as young puppies came out with no behavioural problems, older dogs used to home life have far more problems after 6 months of quarantine.<br />

Pups leaving their mothers and adult dog influence may account for a lot of interdog issues, another huge harm from commercial breeding and the law encourages it.

The breeding and Sale of Dogs Welfare Act doesn't allow the sale of puppies produced commercially to sold before 8 weeks EXCEPT TO PET SHOPS!!!  How crazy is that, Barely weaned pups are allowed to be transported enmasse for retail.

Most puppy owners don't live in a world where they have access to lots of fully vaccinated, friendly and safe adult dogs (or puppies) to expose their unvaccinated puppies to.  Yes, dog folk have lots of contacts and the ability to arrange meetings with all kinds of dogs in all kinds of places to socialise their pups to - but the average pet owner just doesn't.  (I know, I teach them!).

Most owners I see are already struggling to socialise their pups below the age of 10 weeks outside the house, coupled with the fact that large breeds are going to rapidly be too large to carry around and not put down on the ground over that age, and I don't see this being good news for socialisation.

Yes, I agree genetics is more important than some people give it credit for - but good experience and early intervention can turn a genetically poor situation for a puppy, into a manageable and good outcome.

Tommee, it's not the case that socialisation with other puppies at puppy parties is necessarily bad.  It can be an excellent first step.  Puppies need to be able to play and interact with peers *as well* as adult dogs.  Some puppies I see at Playgroup are hiding under chairs by week 1.  By week 3, they have grown in confidence enough to begin to play.  You can tell me this is a "bad" thing for the puppy - but it isn't.  It is an excellent thing, and fantastic that it has happened young enough.

I do agree that some puppies are not best off socialising with other puppies in a free play situation - but a good trainer knows which ones they are, identifies them and gives advice to owners about what they DO need, at an age where it can still be sought out and benefit the puppy. 

Supervising puppy play well is a skill which takes a lot of practice and experience, it's like being a DJ - knowing which puppy will mix well with which other puppy.  Of course a free for all is detrimental and should not happen.

> Most owners I see are already struggling to socialise their pups below the age of 10 weeks outside the house, coupled with the fact that large breeds are going to rapidly be too large to carry around and not put down on the ground over that age, and I don't see this being good news for socialisation.<br />

but that's the point this idea of not putting a pup t the ground before it's fully vaccinated is over the top, as regards risk of disease.

We walk outside the home (so do our other dogs if we have them) so can our pups, (unless we know there has been an outbreak of disease)and even stop and greet a passing dog owner on the street to give controlled exposure.  Certainly no problem visiting shopping precincts, sit on a Bench outside the supermarket, all fairly unlikely to come face to face with infection that often requires direct contact.

I come back to the analogy of the human infant that is often passed around like pass the parcel, kissed and hugged, and mixing with a lot more people (highest disease risk) long before it is protected by vaccinations starting at around 3 months if memory serves, and not completed for three months (used to be longer when my daughter was born they were not complete until 9 months.

Have to say brainless as I often do I agree with most if not all of what u are saying very sensible advise

Have to say brainless as I often do I agree with most if not all of what u are saying very sensible advise.havung got bigger breeds,gsd I managed to keep them with the help of a baby sling well socialised until after vaccinations . Believe me a 16 week old shep pup from the lines mine comes from is no lightweight

Sorry but most vet led"puppy classes" are not structured & the attendees are not always "peers" have seen videos of tiny puppies mixed with much older & bigger puppies, resulting in the smaller puppies being totally overwhelmed.

To vaccinate not knowing if the maternal immunity is still present is a huge risk to the puppy, something a few vets are now recognising, thank goodness and there are some dogs who never need a core vaccination & who it would be folly to vaccinate.

Of course only healthy animals should be vaccinated, how many vets vaccinate immune system compromised dogs & cats ?? Dogs with arthritis should not be vaccinated as it is an immune system condition for example

> if you think you have no rats around, ten to one there will be because they are EVERYWHERE.

Ain't that the truth!  I remember when I first moved to this house I heard a screaming up the garden.  Raced outside - to find my Toy Poodle shaking a rat in her teeth.  Yuk!  So there is my reason for having my dogs protected.  We all have to do what is right for us at the end of the day.

>We walk outside the home (so do our other dogs if we have them) so can our pups, (unless we know there has been an outbreak of disease)and even stop and greet a passing dog owner on the street to give controlled exposure.  Certainly no problem visiting shopping precincts, sit on a Bench outside the supermarket, all fairly unlikely to come face to face with infection that often requires direct contact.

It doesn't involve direct contact with a dog, only with the urine or faeces of an infected dog - and these diseases can live in the environment for a long time... In many places, it wouldn't be safe to walk around with a puppy on the floor on pavements, shopping precincts or areas where other dogs may have toilet-ed.  And vets know this wouldn't be safe and would be advising clients not to do so until the puppy has finished vaccinations.  Like they already do at the moment.  The only difference being the puppy would finish vaccinations at 16wks, not at 10wks.

>Sorry but most vet led"puppy classes" are not structured & the attendees are not always "peers" have seen videos of tiny puppies mixed with much older & bigger puppies, resulting in the smaller puppies being totally overwhelmed.

Who said anything about "vet led" puppy classes?  You said "puppy parties", nothing to do with them being led by vets.  You might have seen videos of poorly run classes, but so what?  I can show you videos of poorly run dog obedience classes, does that mean we should have no dog obedience classes??  Or poorly run dog shows - maybe we should have no dog shows?? There are poorly run everythings, but that doesn't mean we should tell everyone that "thing" is rubbish and to be avoided at all costs - just that we should educate people in what to look for.

We must agree to disagree then, "puppy only socialisation"is like keeping a whole litter together & expecting them to learn interdog skills & behaviour. Few dogs spend their whole lives solely with dogs of a similar age.

As for puppies contracting core diseases if they meet a dog that isn't vaccinated in the traditional regime, do you disinfect yourself completely everytime you come home, including showering, to prevent you carrying home the virus/bacteria ?? If not you could carry infection to your puppy.

It is a biological fact that mammalian immune systems learn by being exposed to viruses etc & not by isolated & solely to rely on vaccinations is, IMHO,folly

> I've known of 4 dogs which have contracted lepto - and all of them were vaccinated against it.  Given the inefficacy of the vaccine, the fact that it often wears off in 9 mnths instead of a year, and the fact that there are multiple strains of lepto and we can only protect against 4 of them (max), often 2 of them (most vaccines), it's not worth having the vaccination given the high risk of adverse effects for this vaccine when compared to the core vaccines.

Unfortunate, I'd say.   Were these 4 from the same litter?  Age?    Fact is I'd still far rather have something in there, against lepto than nothing, so if that means boostering annually against this, then I will.   BUT I'd also say I have never boostered beyond around age 7.   For anything.

At the end of the day, we can only do what feels right for us and our personal dogs.

And re taking precautions so not to walk in infection or pass it on via hands, when we had unprotected puppies around, I did remove outside shoes and wash hands before going into where our puppies were.   And mum was wiped with diluted disinfectant after going outside to attend to biz. before going back into the litter.   if I was working with other dogs at the time, I'd completely change my clothes.

Tommee, I don't know why you want to keep making up things I'm not saying, you seem dead set on an argument for some reason I'm not sure of...

I haven't said anywhere about "puppy only socialisation".  Of course, puppies need socialisation with well-adjusted adult dogs as well.  But sometimes (often) this isn't possible for new owners.  And socialisation with their own species is at least better than no socialisation at all, until the puppy is over 12wks.

It does sound like some people here have an inaccurate view of the world, out there.  I haven't bred a litter before, but I have worked with literally thousands and thousands of puppies, over the last 15 years, at the point just after the breeder waves goodbye.  Starting from the age they leave the breeder, at 8wks.  If you think most people are regularly and frequently socialising their puppies with adult dogs, other people's puppies, and the world on a daily basis between the age of 8-12wks, I can quite factually (on the basis of the thousands of puppies in this age group I've worked with), say that you're wrong. 

The life of the average puppy I work with is:  Spending many hours a day home alone.  Not all day, but many people work part time, and many people are busy with their kids and kids' activities.  I talk to people every week about how to toilet train/crate train/socialise their puppy, and I hear first hand how many are living in frankly boring and unstimulating situations during this critical time in their lives.  It's not for lack of telling people, either - people just have different priorities and frankly don't care enough to be bothered.  If I can get these people to take their puppy out of the house and along with them somewhere, it's a victory.

Second, few people know of others with suitable adult dogs they can meet and socialise with.  They are new to dog ownership.  They don't know anything about what constitutes a suitable dog.  They don't want to make a mistake.  Or they do make a mistake, and let the puppy meet an unsuitable dog. The puppy ends up terrified.  Now we have to undo some of that damage, at class.

Third, people are petrified of disease.  Regardless of what the vet has or hasn't said - and usually they are advised not to take the puppy out until vaccinations have finished.  The urge to protect their tiny puppy is huge.

In this situation, coming along to a class with other animals of the same species, on a weekly basis, smelling disinfectant and vet surgery smells, seeing florescent lights, walking on a damp floor, learning to manage frustration in class around other puppies, and then growing in confidence through play, is frankly the most enriching thing in many of the lives of the puppies I work with.  It's a big reason most of them don't end up having serious behavioural problems when older.

It's a really lovely idea that people should be out and about with their puppies down on the ground from 8wks, and with socialisation with bullet-proof adult dogs on a regular basis - but frankly, that's not the world out there.  That's rose-tinted spectacles. 

Mamabas, the dogs were all adult dogs, of different ages, unrelated and from different litters/breeds.  I agree with your precautions when there are unprotected puppies around and would definitely be doing the same.

I believe the guide dogs continue to do earły vaccines but are now doing a third vaccine at 16 weeks as standard as pups were failing titres especially to parvo.
Personally opt not to vacinate until 12 weeks with second at 14-16 weeks
As for socialisation mine go out for walks from 7 weeks, go into town, visit pet stores etc etc for socialisation. They have maternal derived immunity hence failur of vacine uptake witn earły vacination.
If people are not comfortable with delved start to vacine then it is far far safer to give at least one vaccine over 16weeks or titre and only give further vaccines if titres indicate poor immunity