After helping my aunt finally decide on a Whippet, I realised how much time I had spent with my head burrowed in a dog book reading about the breed characteristics

So, when choosing a breed do you take what is written in books as gospel or do you prefer to meet and talk to owners of the breed?

For example, I knew someone who was really interested in Basenji but read in books that they were bad with other dogs, bad with children, bad with other pets and needed constant supervision. However, when she went to Crufts and spoke to some of the Basenji people they told her the complete opposite - good with dogs when well socialised, happy to see well behaved little people and loved the owners Bengal cats! They did need to be crated when the owner went out but only because they have such a mischievous streak.

It just seemed so bizarre that there was such a big discrepancy between the books and an owners perception of living with the breed? Is it down to different lines in breeds or people attempting to soften the more difficult aspects of a breed?

Just the musings of someone who is off all forms of work for nearly 3 weeks with a ripped AC joint (can you tell I am bored?)

Depends on yoru sources and also when the boks were written.

Were they describing the breed in a kennel situation as would have been usual in the past, or in a family home situation, which is how most show and breeding dogs (owned by caring hobby motivated breeders)live now, those with larger numbers may rotate dogs in and out of kennels, but most will be at least housedogs part time, if not full time sofa/bed hounds..

with popular breeds you also have to take into account that characteristics may be totally untypical in stock that is commercially produced with no reference to breed standard traits of conformation or character.

For a general feel, I would always visit a show (or for working lines/dogs a shoot/trial) and see the dogs interacting, after all it's a very bus environment with lots of dogs and people, if they are good there then in familiar surroundings they will be better.

For example in my breed you would be watchful how the males reacted to each other, where in the local park there'd rarely be an issue as there aren't all the female pheromones around in number making the males more sexually competitive (there may even be in season bitches at the show), but I'd expect the girls to be sociable with each other.

You also need to speak to a variety of owner/breeders, those who live in the country versus town, with children, older owners etc, as we all live differently, including breeders.

It seems to be that there is a lot of 'owned one now an expert' owners on the internet.

I did read on one site about Elkies (which I can no longer find ) that they were completely incompatible with other dogs and other pets which is the complete opposite of what I have found talking to owners of the breed myself.

P.S. Prepare yourselves for Crufts 2016 - I'm coming (early!) for Elkhound judging and loves

I'd have to say both - the written word and the actual living breathing example of whichever breed you are after.   And even more confusion - seeing more than one kennel of that breed!!   Yes, there is a Breed Standard, but equally how it's interpreted, the Standard, features.   For instance, in my own main breed, if I don't see a decent head-piece, I tend not to look much further because without a typical head for the breed, the hound isn't 'the breed'.   Likewise with movement.   You can have a super moving mongrel, but it's not one of my main breeds!!

And it would also depend on who has written 'the book'.   Obviously a long-standing successful breeder/owner would carry more weight than somebody writing in general about a breed.

It really is a minefield out there for prospective puppy buyers!

I had a nosey at a breed which I've always admired but will openly admit I'm not woman enough to own and the breed descriptions varies from 'big, fluffy teddy bear who is sociable with other dogs' to 'will eat any neighbourhood dogs, cats, horses and potentially any child which sneezes in the vicinity'?!

What about if the child didn't  sneeze!! It always depends I find who wrote the book,their experience etc. After all one person's fancy is another's hell.

Then I imagine it would only be a light nibble of some fleshy part - like the arms or legs

Sadly if the sources are American the vast majority of Elkhounds known by general public are Amish/BYB/Puppy farm stock and not only untypical in looks but temperaments also.

Show stock is sometimes softer temperament than in Scandinavian hunting dogs, but more to do with lifestyle. There's' the lack of regular exercise, early neutering and excess weight that have an impact.  UK dogs are probably somewhere in between.

Some of the hunting dogs in the past may have not been so sociable due to lack of socialisation/being kennel dogs.

You only need read the standard as to what the temperament ought to be.

As somebody  who used to write books about animals, I'd say to do your research on who the author is. Many dog breeds books are written by people who have never even had the breed (they may for instance be a dog magazine editor or a vet -very very common that), or have had very little involvement with it. As one example my ex wrote a book on one breed based on having lived with those of mine for just a few years until we got divorced. If I was looking for a breed book, I'd look for books written by people well established in the breed IN THE UK.

Book about Moggies is great

If we take a run of the mill entry at a championship show say....80-90% of Cavaliers are happy, sweet, people friendly, dog friendly and biddable.
But there will be some shy ones, sharp ones and some downright nasty with other dogs ones.

On the whole the breed is all of the former but some poor people own the latter type.....they may give their opinion.

I'd say both can be good sources. I've read book that said things I didn't agree with and I have seen owners who will only tell people about a breeds good points and gloss over or ignore any negative points a breed may have which doesn't help.

I'd say read the books to get a general idea then go and meet some and speak to owners to get a more personal view of them.

I know some one with a Basenji, once he grew up they said they had to keep him seperate to the other dogs as he kept fighting with them. I think as the owners told the person you know that they were ''good with dogs when well socialised, happy to see well behaved little people and loved the owners Bengal cats!'' It's easy to see why the books said they wernt good with other dogs, kids and other animals as the owners said when well socialised there good with other dogs so I'd take it they need a bit of work in that department so not a natural I love all dogs kind of breed. Again with the well behaved kids comment, so not the type of dog who will put up with a teasing kid annoying it which to many would translate as not good with kids as they expect a dog to put up with anything a kid does without a complaint. As for the other animals they are a hunting breed after all so I'd imagin while some would be ok other may not, alot would be down to the owner and individual dog in that department I'd imagin. For example My girl a vallhund I can trust with my disabled budgie and fancy mice as well as any of the animals I work with yet I know a few of her breed who are very very good ratters and mousers.

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Jo Cartwright says: I always prefer to speak with breeders and owners to get a good idea of what they are like to live with. In saying that, I do think that different lines should always be a consideration. In my own breed there are huge variations in temperament depending on which kennel they have come from.

I found the description on the breed club sites very accurate for the Buhund.
Louise

Temperaments are always going to vary within any given breed.

Regarding books, many say this & that should be this way or that way, but they should 'Always' explain (in detail) why it should ...?

I think the problem with books, and any other one way communication like a website, is that it also doesn't take into account the experiences and attitudes of the reader,as well as the author's as others have said. 
Characteristics such as trainability, intelligence, independence, prey drive, sociability (with dogs, other animals and/or humans) are very important to me but so variable within breeds and highly subjective.
I had a Elkhound for 9 years, not reknowned for recall, I could reliably recall her from sheep, horses, etc she wouldn't get any obedience awards, but, as my friend said to me - after I'd told my Heidi to 'leave' her dog that Heidi had 'put in its place' -she listens to you, doesn't she'. It did take some time to get to that stage though.  So, it depends on what you think these attributes are and what you want from a dog.  Someone wanting an obedience champion would think Heidi too independent, i, wanting a non-aggressive, family friendly, protective looking, uncomplicated and safe walking companion found her obedient enough.  You'll not find much about the breed that says that.
What is frightening to me, is that people showing their  dogs will hide their dog's temperament by using Pet Calmers of some sort so, even if I went to shows to meet the dogs and owners - how would I know what is true and what is medicated or falsely presented in any way?

> how would I know what is true and what is medicated or falsely presented in any way?

You would not be assessing the dog in the ring but around the show on the benches around other dogs and people.  It would take someone very clever to be on top of a dog for any prolonged length of time trying to hid the true temperament.

I had a couple interested in the breed spend all day at the Manchester championship show with our breed, and they had done the same in October at our club open show.

They recognised each of my dogs, from last time, (and some others they had met before) were very surprised that they were quite happy to be interacted with (petted and admired, the toads) even after I had given them each a cow hoof to chew, they admitted they had expected to be given the hairy eyeball at least or be growled at.

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Shelley Cooper says: Always talk to breeders and join a breed specific chat group and talk to owners of the breed

Just to add, and I have a good number of books on my main breed (and a few now on my second breed), I find books give me the background/history of the breed which to me, is very interesting.  So again, to me, books and the living animal, both have their place.   All and any knowledge is beneficial much as it's not always necessary to buy a breed-book.   They are readily available, second-hand, from places like Amazon.

I've yet again forgotten how to quote.  What you said (Brainless) about people not being able to hide things on the benches etc doesn't seem to be true as there has been one recent post asking about pet calimers for showing problems.

Whilst I think they have their place (I use herbals for car sickness and fireworks) if a breeder/shower is using them - and being advised to use them on here where people are usually vocal about any perceived 'misconduct' -  I wonder how widespread this is.

Shelley from Facebook - definitely good ideas

Mamabas - I love reading dog books I just get more confused about what breed. Too many breeds - not enough time (or money)

There is always enough time to read breed books

My favourite breed book is one of the Elkie ones, I cannot remember the author but its fascinating reading and gives me an insight into the possible ancestors of my future pup.

Looking forward is all well an good but there is a lot to be learned from the past and as a future (hopefully!) exhibitor of Elkies I like to see myself as a sponge; always looking to learn and to hopefully one day help the breed go forward like those before me have done. After all, we all stand on the shoulders of giants.

> I cannot remember the author but its fascinating reading and gives me an insight into the possible ancestors of my future pup.<br />

I suspect it will be the Norwegian elkhound in the British Isles by Ann Roslin Williams (her Border Terrier Books are equally good) which takes the breed and lines in details from 1870's through to 1992.

The only other really in depth ones are Olav Wallo's three editiosn, but he was US based.

Books are a great guide but in my opinion they give a general overview to the character of a breed, I think if you like the look of a breed then try to meet as many people as possible who own dogs of that breed. If you like what you see and meet ask them where they got theirs or if they would recommend a breeder then when you are looking for a puppy you will hopefully be in the right direction. Also something to bear in mind is that dogs are influenced by their upbringing and provided your puppy has a proper start then you are largely responsible for how the adult turns out.   I am sure everyone on here knows of breeds "known" for certain behavioural traits and individuals of these breeds who are totally the reverse, non-yappy terriers, non-guarding GSD's etc.

> I am sure everyone on here knows of breeds "known" for certain behavioural traits and individuals of these breeds who are totally the reverse, non-yappy terriers, non-guarding GSD's etc.

Elkhounds that like water, and are keen retrievers (normally not known for these), they also need to be taught not to bark for no reason (they always see a reason), actually not that difficult, and essential if you live near neighbours with 6 ;).

Luckygjrl - I meant so many breeds that I'd like to have, including crosses such as Bedlngton Whippets  and Sporting Lucas Terriers.  I'm in danger of being so indecisive about breed that I won't get a pup!
I adored my Elkhound and miss her terribly. I hope, and am sure, you will get much joy from yours.

I hope so - he has a collection of leads and bowls already. He just needs a name for when he eventually gets here! Either this year or next I keep telling myself

Many of the very best dog books that I have read, have been 'The Very Old Books'. I grew up with 'German Shepherds'. I have a large collection of 'Old German Shepherd Books' I still enjoy reading them now, love looking back at all the old black & white photo's of the earlier dogs.

Read 'All' the old books also. that's my advice. Cheers.

I have a large collection of 'Old German Shepherd Books

How do the photos of the old gsd's look compared to todays, Hitlers dog blondi looked very different, upright, square type conformations, see vid, probably 1940's sometime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBzGeuNAoMY

The earlier German Shepherds were more like todays Malinois (Belgian Shepherd) in outline/build.

Thanks for the link its always nice to see a German Shepherd from the past. Cheers.

The earlier German Shepherds were more like todays Malinois (Belgian Shepherd) in outline/build

That sounds like they were/might have been something like todays euro bred working GSDs, see link for samples, KNPV is a dutch police working dog test.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTiFNnN0oTg
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Except Malinois are square in profile, and have straighter angles and different in head (smaller ears and leaner).

I agree, especially compared to some of todays German Shepherds. 

When it comes to 'Angulation' all any dog needs is 'Adequate' no more, no less (Adequate is 'Always' best) just my opinion.

Absolutely love German Shepherds. Cheers.

Angulation....interesting web page.

http://www.ccresteds.com/canineterminologyformovement.pdf
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Thanks for the link (interesting) Cheers.

I always admire the angulations, corresponding length of bones, overall build (outline) of 'Wolves'. Also, mother nature has shaped them to be consistent.

Also, mother nature has shaped them to be consistent.

It does so by an individuals of the species elimination process, wolves in the wild with inferior structural and other things of an inferior characteristic (eg scenting ability may not be up to survival standards) would not survive long enough to secure a breeding partner and therefor would not reproduce the genetically inferior characteristics suitable for survival of the individual and therefor the species.
However, such vulnerable individuals which contributed 'something' to enhance the survival of 'the pack' would simply die without reproduction opportunities, eg one might have a hightened scenting characteristic than most of the others and enhance the prospects for a food food supply for the pack.......& so on.
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With the domestic dog, in europe all working breeds have to enter a 'fit for breeding test' ie fit to reproduce offspring, the tests are carried out by the national breed club, in the case of dobermanns specifically if the country has to small a population of the breed to have a breed club then the dogs go to germany to enter their fit for breeding test.

All domestic canines are a man made synthetic species.
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