I just read an account of the birth of pups which needed a c-section (didn't read it on here, was another another forum - and was a post from years ago, not recent.). 

This post said that some pups were born and then there was a gap from 2.30am on.  The person contacted their vet, who said to take mum in - and purely due to the time involved and no other clinical signs - the bitch was having a c-section by 5am. 

I've read you should wait longer, and give it 4hrs before going to vet and/or seeking a c-section?

THEN, the vet asked if the owner would like the dog SPAYED at the same time as doing the c-section... ???  As less likely that there would be complications after, infection etc???

Now, I'm thinking:  If a vet advised waiting longer, and then there was anything wrong with the puppies, surely the vet is going to worry that their advice led to the death of some of the pups?  So (this the crux of what I'm asking!):  Once you go to a vet in these circumstances (especially if they are not very experienced with repro stuff), is it not true that you are going to end up with a c-section?  Even if you have gone earlier than the amount of time advised to wait between pups before seeking assistance?  Because the vet doesn't want to be held responsible if something happens and is going to want to get in there - so better to do an unnecessary c-section (and who will know it might have been unnecessary anyway and mum might have whelped normally), than to risk losing even one pup?  (My experience with vets is they tend to be very 'do everything' and excessively invasive anyway, in other circumstances.)

Second, what is with the idea of spaying in the same op?!  Surely that is major surgery and how can a bitch then rear a litter of pups well?  Could this suggestion have come from the fact that spaying is a routine op which vets carry out all the time so the vet knew they were on familiar territory in taking everything out - c-section (repairing uterus and putting things back as they were, though, wouldn't be something they do routinely)?

Any thoughts on these situations?

With such a relatively short time span, my bet it simply was the break in between starting delivery from the second uterine horn. I once had a perfectly healthy pup born six hours after the rest. But yes, most vets are quick to suggest a section. There is no simple answer really. Sometimes its no doubt necessary, sometimes it might not be. Comes down to knowing your bitch etc and not everyone does.

I personally would have absolutely no problem having a bitch spayed at the same time as having a c-section -rather one lot of surgery than two. Never had it done as I've never had to have a section in a bitch, but have had spay and section done in cats several times.

The recovery from a spay and section at the same time would be no different... It's still a huge surgery, but if you were planning on spaying a few weeks later anyway, it would be one less anaesthetic to go through. There is also the reason behind wanting to spay.... A ruptured uterus for example would perhaps be more difficult to heal than just taking it out.

I've found vets on the contrary to your "immediate section". My gp vet refused to do a section saying that my bitch needed more time and "leaving alone in a room in case she didn't want to whelp with me there"... This is after a 48 hour first stage with no progression and on day 64 from ovulation!! I had to go to another vet who was entirely in agreement that intervention was needed to get the puppies out.

> Second, what is with the idea of spaying in the same op?!  Surely that is major surgery and how can a bitch then rear a litter of pups well?

The only two C sections with my won girls I have had was with their final litters, so I asked for them to be spayed at the same time, as long as the vet felt it was sage to do so.

No problem with rearing the pups as it doesn't interfere with prolactin production, which is the main hormone.

My reason for wanting it done is I normally spay my girls 11 - 12 weeks after the birth of their litter and obviously didn't want to have a bitch opened up twice in a short space of time even if I waited until after next season it would be two abdominal surgery's within 6 - 9 months.

> Second, what is with the idea of spaying in the same op?!  Surely that is major surgery and how can a bitch then rear a litter of pups well?

Well most vets don't approve of another litter after a C section.

The only two C sections with my own girls I have had was with their final litters, so I asked for them to be spayed at the same time, as long as the vet felt it was sage to do so.

No problem with rearing the pups as it doesn't interfere with prolactin production, which is the main hormone.

My reason for wanting it done is I normally spay my girls 11 - 12 weeks after the birth of their litter and obviously didn't want to have a bitch opened up twice in a short space of time even if I waited until after next season it would be two abdominal surgery's within 6 - 9 months.

Very interesting everyone!  So - spaying at c-section is ok... That's good to know.  (I wouldn't have known what to say if I'd found myself in that position and a vet asking me if I wanted that, without knowing that!).

Is it true, though, that most vets don't approve of another litter after a c-section?  If you did have a further litter, would it need to also be a (scheduled?) c-section?  I'm just thinking of breeds which can't give birth normally and almost always need c-sections - do they only have one litter, then??

Almost afraid to ask this next question, but does anyone prefer to risk losing a puppy or two, versus having a c-section?  I mean, I understand the priority in human birth is to secure the baby and get the baby out alive - and that determines if you need a c-section.  In a litter of puppies, assuming you already have some out successfully, would it be awful to think 'I really don't want to put my bitch through a c-section so will wait longer?'.  Especially if having a c-section is going to prevent future litters or dictate the need for future c-sections.  Obviously with some situations, waiting would risk the bitch's health as well, so I don't mean in those situations - but if you thought it wasn't a problem for the bitch, but it might result in the loss of a puppy or two?

> Is it true, though, that most vets don't approve of another litter after a c-section?  If you did have a further litter, would it need to also be a (scheduled?) c-section?  I'm just thinking of breeds which can't give birth normally and almost always need c-sections - do they only have one litter, then??<br />

When the KC made a rule of no more litters after a second C section I know the BVA wanted it to be after one.

There are many reasons for a section, I'd have bred from my two again had it been tehri first litters as in both cases it wasn't primary inertia, and they'd have the other litters with no issue.  The sectiosn were for subsequent pups.

the breeds that have bred themselves into a  corner of elective C sections will now need to contrite on breeding free whelpers again or only have two litters.

Re: what ifs, the expectations of getting every puppy alive/surviving is unrealistic really not what nature counts on.  A c Section could also put pups at risk, so it's a hard one.

There is no reason unless it's conformational to assume a  C section would be needed next time, which is why the KC allows for another litter after a section, but should it need a second no more pups.

Thanks Barbara, so just to clarify:  The reason the BVA/vets don't ideally want a 2nd litter after a C-section is not because the dog is automatically going to need another one next time, but because they don't want to encourage reproduction of dogs which will always need c-sections (as this is then getting bred in, genetically/conformationally)?

I really don't know the vets reasoning, mainly I think they consider it a welfare issue,  other than so many seem to be against pedigree dog breeding in general. 

Hypocritical, considering a lot of livestock faming practices, no puppy tail docking but tis OK to dock and castrate lams with no anaesthetic by banding, but not pups tails.  Ok to cut piglets tails off.

On the contrary, my vet encouraged me to try again after she did the first cesar....she saw the entire situation while the uterus was open and saw the quirky way a pup was folded.
She was best placed to say this was not a bitch who's anatomy was at fault.

Ok, so in that case it depends on what the vet sees when they're inside as to whether the dog would be able to go through a normal birth/delivery process next time after a c-section... ?

My vet tells me about very unhealthy scarred uterus and other anatomical anomalies she encounters. I once did a Caesar on a boxer bitch, she said the uterine wall was thin and friable and unlikely to recover well, so she spayed her there and then.
I'd aways be guided by her if I ever needed to make the decision.

I think it's just a routine ask TBH - A bit like a routine question when you get puppy vaccines .... !!!

My vet asked if I wanted a spay when I needed a C section on one of my girls - I refused as personally believe the risks are too great. The uterus is very vascular and risk of haemorrhage is  much higher than during a routine spay. Have known friends loose bitches to cardiac arrest secondary to hypovalemic  shock when spayed at section.
I  didn't breed this bitch again and she was spayed about 12 mths after the birth of her litter

In the case of those deliveries we had to have done by C.Section and as mine went into secondary inertia, I'd let them go to the point of getting so far and then 'shut down'.   At that point I'd be off to my vet and normally they'd give oxytocin and see what happened.  One vet gave me a couple of shots to give my bitch once I got her back home after being examined, but knowing the risks with oxytocin, I only gave one dose - no response so it was back to the vet for a C.Section.   I didn't want to risk giving her the second shot myself!    Usually there was no decision to be made with mine.   Because they'd gone into secondary inertia, it was simply a case of going in and getting the puppies out - asap.

None of my Sectioned bitches was spayed at the same time however.   I let them have the next season and then opted for the spay surgery after that.   I'd not risk taking a litter after one that needed a C.Section.

Thanks folks for the other views...

How common are c-sections, then?  Not in tricky-to-breed breeds, but in a large breed, for eg?  Like, over your career, how many litters have you bred and how many c-sections have been needed?  (And what size/category of breed of dog do you have?)

Only needed one c section - the writing was on the wall from earły in pregnacy. large litter of 11 and she was massive. Vet was on alert at due dad as we had concerns that she would not be able to get effective contractions going die to uterus being so stretched. This is exactly what happened, went into labour but second stage contractions to weak with firt pup mal presented. 11 pups all very much alive born c section, smallest 1lb 1oz largest 1lb 3oz ! I  have medium sized gundog breed.

Other littrers have been between 8-10 pups  all delivered without hitch - never bred the bitch that needed a c section a second time but her progeny have had normal pregnacy and whelpings ( true primary inertia can be familial IME )

I have bred 22 litters 3 C sections,

The first I felt the bitch had been in labour too long in hindsight and since having bitches have on occasion had longer first stages, perhaps should have waited, but it was the bitches third and last litter, and she had whelped easily and fairly quickly before.

The other two were after some pups had been delivered, again a third and last litter, and the other a first and only litter from a friends bitch, rather older than I would have chosen to breed as a maiden at over 4 years.  She had gastro enteritis in mid pregnancy resulting a thin bitch at whelping despite best efforts to get condition on her.

Reading a post on a forum describing the owners view of what happened might be very different from the vets view of what occurred.

I seriously doubt a vet would go to spay first if pups have already been born without trying oxytocin and calcium jabs first unless the pups were in distress.

As for losing one or two pups to avoid a section... Losing a pup or more is part of breeding but something we endeavour to avoid. If you have a dead pup they are unlikely to be pushed out without a section anyway, and they'll kill every pup waiting in line behind it if you wait long enough.

The way I see it is, the minute you choose to breed you have the responsibility to protect mum and pups from conception to death. And you make your best judgement call with the advice of your vet in the moment. Its easy to look back and wonder, but there's really no point.

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Katie Beckinsale says: Firstly, a section is major surgery whether you spay at the same time or not.
Then, if you repair the uterus and do not spay there are many risks involved! Infection being a very real, huge and potentially life threatening risk. There are also risks of scar tissue. The uterus will scar, scars do not stretch. If this bitch is planned to be mated from again there is a much much higher chance she would have problems during pregnancy/whelping. If she is not planned to be mated from again, why wouldn't you spay at the same time?
Don't forget this section is major surgery, then she will need to have another separate major surgery later on which could have been avoided and combined with this one? If she is not to be mated again and you don't want to spay why not? The risk of pyo in entire bitches is reason enough, never mind the hormone dependant cancers.

Obviously the risk of losing puppies is something vets want to avoid as they want to save all lives, including the bitch. Many bitches pass during/shortly after whelping no one can second guess whether the bitch will eventually get there on her own or not so 'most' vets will just do what they can to make sure all survive. Sections are under no circumstances ideal, but neither are dead puppies/bitches.

What are people’s Opinion of having a bitch spayed at same time as c section? Has anyone incurred problems with this?
Did bitch still bleed after was milk flow ok etc
Thanks in advance

Had two bitches spayed along with sections, both were having their last litters at 6 - 7 years.

Pups reared well, with no issues with milk, other than dealing with a pist anasthetic Mum and litter .

Pups needing to be woken to feed and Mum helped with cleaning, due to sleepiness.

This is an article written by a renowned veterinary behaviourist, Cheryl Lopate (author of a great book on breeding and whelping):

Reasons NOT to Spay Your Bitch at the Time of Her C- Section

1) The blood supply to the uterus is markedly increased to support the pregnancy. Ligation (tying off) the blood vessels is done when the bitch is under anesthesia so her blood pressure is lower. Sometimes as they wake up from anesthesia and blood pressure increases to normal, a vessel may leak or a ligature may pop off resulting in
hemorrhage, which may require either another surgery or if it occurs rapidly and severely, may result in death.

2) Furthermore, every vessel in the broad ligament (the structure that supports the uterus and ovaries) must also be ligated and if any are missed may leak and hemorrhage resulting in a similar outcome to #1 above.

3) The bitch shares 1/3 of her blood volume with the fetuses. While a small portion of that shared blood volume goes with the fetuses, a large amount is left within the uterine lumen or in the uterine wall in the placental attachment sites. This blood can be resorbed by the bitch over time to resupply her blood volume more quickly.

4) The rapid loss of blood resulting from removal of the uterus and its contents (described in #2 above) causes a marked drop in blood pressure during surgery which can result in cardiac or respiratory compromise or crisis during anesthesia, resulting in death.

5) Pregnancy is a thromboembolic state – this means that blood clots occur with greater frequency in pregnant and immediate post –partum bitches. All bitches, whether they have surgery or not are at increased risk for throwing clots, which can be life threatening if they go to the lungs or brain. Spaying, where multiple vessels are tied off and form clots at the ends where the ligatures are, will increase the risk of a clot dislodging and getting into the bloodstream. The most common deaths in the early postpartum bitch are following C-section spays.

6) Performing a spay at the time of C-section adds an additional 30 – 60 minutes of surgery time (depending on the size and body condition of the bitch) on to the procedure. This is time spent away from the puppies who should nurse the bitch as soon as possible to get energy stores up and colostrum ingested.

For the reasons stated above, I strongly recommend AGAINST spaying at the time of c-section unless the uterus must be removed because it is damaged or compromised.
Cheryl Lopate, MS, DVM,
Diplomate, American College of Theriogenologists

None of our C.Sectioned girls was spayed at the same time.    Even with one who had a hard time /C.Section, I decided to let her recover before being spayed - at which point one side of her uterus was found to be so damaged that she'd never have carried a second litter.   I let her have another season and was spayed a couple of months later.

Have to say I asked the vet to spay if safe to do so.

In both cases I had planned to spay when pups were 12 weeks.