Not logged inChampdogs Information Exchange
Forum Breeders Help Search Board Index Active Topics Login

Find your perfect puppy at Champdogs
The UK's leading pedigree dog breeder website for over 25 years

Topic Dog Boards / Feeding / Contracts
- By Jake61 [gb] Date 06.10.15 21:11 UTC
I'm curious as to when an actual contract is formed between breeder and purchaser. I noticed a comment on this site stating that although a purchase had been agreed, without a deposit being paid there was no contract in place; that the breeder, therefore, could do what they wanted with the pup concerned. I would have thought that as soon as the pup has been offered and accepted (providing evidence to prove same) there would be a contract in place under appropriate consumer protection legislation (as long as the breeder was in business as such and not a private individual). Can anyone clarify please.
- By Goldmali Date 06.10.15 21:46 UTC Upvotes 1
Pretty much all GOOD breeders are not breeding as a business, so therefore it does not apply. Really nobody should ever buy a pup from somebody selling pups as a business as they don't do it for the right reasons.
- By Jake61 [gb] Date 06.10.15 22:37 UTC
I'm not sure how HMRC determine between hobby and business in relation to breeders; probably not in terms of their proficiency. My question was on the establishment of a contract between breeder and purchaser. I'm not proposing that anyone should buy pups from an unsuitable provider.
- By Goldmali Date 06.10.15 22:43 UTC Upvotes 1
The answer is still the same -if you do not breed as a business, several laws do not apply. (As per Trevor Cooper's seminars.) Can't answer how it is determined but would guess local councils play a big part and whether you need to have a breeding license or not. Many councils will make a difference between a hobby breeder and a commercial breeder and a hobby breeder (breeding for themselves for something to show, for instance) will usually not require a license.
- By Carrington Date 07.10.15 17:32 UTC
I noticed a comment on this site stating that although a purchase had been agreed, without a deposit being paid there was no contract in place; that the breeder, therefore, could do what they wanted with the pup concerned.

If it were a verbal acceptance, then the breeder, can quite clearly refute that.

But, if say.........things have happened during the course of e-mails and a breeder has quite clearly said the pup is yours, without any 'small print' get out clauses, (very silly of them) then that would serve as a contract of such...........however, if the pup has then gone elsewhere, (breeders can change their minds for all sorts of reasons) even if the outraged 'promised puppy owner' takes them to court, (which they legally could) no judge in the land is going to force a pup to change hands, so it would be quite a waste of time and money to even try.

Once a deposit is paid that is a contract of purchase, even if the breeder returns the money it is much more difficult to get out of, and a judge may very well insist on a pup being handed over, but once again, if the breeder has a good reason, a judge will put the pup first.

But as said, not many breeders are a business, you'd have to be pretty stubborn minded to go down the court route, if a breeder had a change of heart, after all they are a breeders pups and if they are not happy or find an even more perfect home, it should be respected.
- By Jake61 [gb] Date 07.10.15 19:23 UTC
Thank you for that. It just seemed a strange premise that a breeder could agree to a sale but that this agreement would not be considered a contract until a deposit was paid. I wouldn't be surprised at any outcome of court proceedings nowadays; it wouldn't be my choice to follow that route.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 07.10.15 21:10 UTC Upvotes 1
A breeder may well find things about the prospective purchaser on longer acquaintance that makes them feel they do not wish to place a puppy of theirs in their care.
- By JeanSW Date 07.10.15 21:48 UTC Upvotes 2

> A breeder may well find things about the prospective purchaser on longer acquaintance that makes them feel they do not wish to place a puppy of the"irs in their care.


It happened to me.  Even though plenty of emails had been exchanged, and then several phone calls.  They arrived to see pups and stayed 3 hours.  I let them as I knew it had taken 4 hours to get to my place.  However, far too many contradictions went on for my liking.  I don't like lies.  My pups, my choice.  I just said - I am not happy that you are suitable owners for one of my puppies.

End of.
- By furriefriends Date 08.10.15 07:11 UTC
I would suggest hmrc make no distinction.  Technically any income should be declared for tax purpose offset from expenses. I don't think hmrc would be involved in contracts
There is at least one local council that are now requiring licences even to breed one litter .w.they have quite intense criteria for the licence but I have no idea how this is to be policed
- By Brainless [gb] Date 08.10.15 10:58 UTC Upvotes 1

> I would suggest hmrc make no distinction.


Actually they do I have the HMRC Business Economic Notes 14, (covers the pet breeding industry) which no longer are on-line.

"3. Breeding of pedigree livestock

The word `Pedigree' is used commonly to denote an animal of pure breeding, one that is registered with the appropriate breed society and inferring formal recognition that it has been bred from a line of registered animals.

Breeding arises from two principal and distinct motivations. Competitive or show breeding is concerned with establishing and/or developing and improving pedigree stock. Income from the sale of offspring or other associated activities is welcome but is neither the only or main motivation. On the other hand commercial pedigree breeding is simply a business venture and is concerned with pedigree only so far as it influences the marketability of offspring.

Pedigree breeders go to great lengths to preserve breed lines and generally improve or maintain standards of breed conformation. This attention to conformity at times necessitates the breeder to undertake what to some may be considered as distasteful or heartless. For example, docking of tails, culling of stock that do not meet breed standards.

As the demand for pets has increased, so too has the number of establishments involved in breeding, together with an increase in the activities of existing breeding establishments. Leaving aside the intensive breeding of birds, small animals and so on, it is the commercial exploitation of dogs and to a lesser extent cats, which causes most concern to the serious breeder and caring animal lover.
...............................................

Hobby or business

Most people involved with breeding, whether it be dogs, cats, pigeons and so on, take their activities seriously. This is not to say, however, that they also take the commercial side of breeding seriously or are motivated by a prime objective to make profits. As is often the case, the process of selective breeding can be a slow and costly exercise. The breeder will retain young that show promise. These will, in turn, depending on their eventual quality, be bred from, further enhancing the blood line and so the process will continue.

Inevitably, the creation of a blood line will result in a gradual increase in stock of animals and ensuing costs. Depending on the success of the breeder, demand should also increase, for use of stud animals or for young stock, thereby increasing the potential for profit.

It must be said, however, that this is not always a natural progression and even if success is eventually achieved, the time scale can be variable. A breeder may have to support a growing establishment, with no realistic prospect of enjoying an equally good inflow of receipts, for the foreseeable future.

The breeder may, of course, have been content to subsidise his/her interest and enthusiasm, but as costs increase, may be forced to consider one of two options.

    To trim down stock of animals, selling off stock to other breeders or as pets
    Increasing breeding activities in order to raise the required flow of receipts by selling young into the pet market.

Depending on individual circumstances, such additional breeding purely to increase income may become a permanent feature or be undertaken at different times, either to cover expenditure peaks, fund capital expenditure and so on.

Whether the activities amount to the carrying on of a trade profession or vocation so that the profits are assessable under Cases I or II of Schedule D or is merely a hobby, is a question that can only be determined on consideration of the relevant facts in individual cases.

........................................"

There are paragraphs on expenditure:

"Breeding economics

The principal factors which determine the possible income generated from any breeding unit are basically similar and can be summarised as follows.

    Breeding capability of female
    Average size of litter or batch of eggs
    Length of gestation
    Average maturity rate, which is age at which offspring become independent.

The young, of course, are not sold or ready to leave the breeder as soon as they are born. The breeder has the task of nurturing the young until they are mature. During this delicate period the breeder will incur

    cost of feeding, and special dietary requirements
    veterinary bills for examinations, treatments, vaccinations and so on
    heating and bedding costs
    cost of nursing and possible additional staff costs.

Once the litter or fledglings have reached maturity, the breeder may then also incur costs of any pedigree registration and advertising.

This expenditure will be in addition to the normal maintenance and feed expenditure incurred in the breeding establishment, which typically will include most of the following.

    Operating expenditure and associated costs
        Cost of new stock
        Stud fees
        Food costs
        Heating costs
        Maintenance to accommodation
        Staff wages
        Transportation costs - attending shows and so on.
    Miscellaneous small equipment and consumables
        Sterilising fluids/disinfectants
        Bedding - ordinary and special bedding for welping
        Printing stationery and advertising
        Miscellaneous equipment such as bowls, brushes, towels, bins, collar, leads, and so on.
    Fees and subscriptions
        Breeding licence fees
        Veterinary fees
        Show/exhibition or other competition fees
        Journals and other breed circulations
        Registration fees - Clubs, Societies or Associations, for example, registration of puppy with the Kennel Club.

In considering the level of bona fide business expenditure relating to the establishment, a common problem revolves around the head count of productive animals. That is, animals which are actively used for breeding or showing, or are in any other way essential to and make an active contribution to the establishment.

A substantial number of breeders, especially in the dog world, become very attached to members of their stock and contrary to good business practise may continue to keep and maintain animals that have become non-productive. They, in essence, revert strictly to the status of `pet' rather than a business asset.

Ascertaining the true position appertaining to business stock or private pet, in the majority of cases will not be clear cut and where relevant will require careful consideration of the facts in each individual case."
- By MamaBas [gb] Date 08.10.15 12:35 UTC Edited 08.10.15 12:38 UTC
I have never accepted a deposit.   I do (did) have a sales contract however which is/was signed by both parties at point of sale - money changing hands and each clause explained fully.    I had a litter with lots of interest BUT end of the day, although one of the prospective buyers had been and stated her preference for one of the two available males, as time went on after she'd been to visit, and she started making demands about the puppy, I started regretting saying she could have him and in fact told her I'd decided to keep him myself (which was true).   She wasn't happy, to say the least, but no monies had changed hands and so at that point, the puppies still belonged to me.   With it being my decision about what happened to them and where they went.   I know I made the right decision for that puppy, at the time.
- By furriefriends Date 08.10.15 13:05 UTC
Thanks Brainless I was guessing purely in they basis of earned income. so does that mean you could have a couple of litters a year and no one would care if you weren't breeding from pedigree dogs ?
- By MamaBas [gb] Date 08.10.15 13:11 UTC

> so does that mean you could have a couple of litters a year and no one would care if you weren't breeding from pedigree dogs ?


Oh yes, 'people' would care!!   But legally I think it would be okay to be producing a couple of litters a year in most areas.   Ethically - quite another matter.   And it would also depend on the conditions said litters were being kept and ditto for mum's condition.   The RSPCA might be interested.
- By furriefriends Date 08.10.15 13:15 UTC
oh I agree MamaBas. I was still referring to hmrc who seem to dislike you earning anything without declaring
- By Jake61 [gb] Date 08.10.15 14:40 UTC
Thanks Brainless; thought that it would be more complex than at first sight
- By sherriesmum [gb] Date 08.10.15 18:38 UTC
it doesnt matter what sort of breeder you are.you need to declare all income but most dont.i know single parents on the dole who work as escorts cash in hand up to £300 an hour!
- By Admin (Administrator) Date 09.10.15 09:59 UTC
Facebook Replies:

Jules Magee Burton says: "Contract" haha what a joke, not worth anything unless you have solicitors present and are prepared to go to court! And owners will do what they like regardless

..

Stephen Kirby says: I would have thought that a breeder could pull out of an agreement at anytime providing the full deposit was re imbursed. The pup/puppies are still his/her responsibility and while in his/her possessions and if he/she feels fit that the decision for the pup not to be housed with the purchaser for whatever reasons then I don't see why they cannot stop that process. Me personally the health and well being of the animal is more important than any amount of money and if I thought the pup would live a better life with someone who had it for nothing than a buyer then that pup would go to the right person
Topic Dog Boards / Feeding / Contracts

Powered by mwForum 2.29.6 © 1999-2015 Markus Wichitill

About Us - Terms and Conditions - Privacy Policy