Wondering if anyone has experienced anything similar to my current situation - which has totally thrown me and others!

So at the end of last year, & start of this I had my girls tests done and took on the difficult task of finding a stud, options where limited due to the lack of health tested dogs around. Anyway I found one I liked the pedigree one, was health tested I liked what i saw of him at shows - so he was my first option.

At the start of August my girls behaviour changed and her skin became sensitive to touch ( common for her and known with others of her breed, when coming into season, she's  a hairless breed! ) i knew she was due in the start of September and thought she would come in early. Around the 11th of August she started to swell, as much as you would expect from a girl in full blown season but there was no spotting - this lasted two weeks and then she went back to normal. So I thought she had possibly had a silent season.

But then on the 27th I noticed she had started spotting so on day 6 (the 2nd September) I took her to the vets for a premate - something I hadn't done before, but not wondered if she had possibly had a split season? The result came back c3 and my vet said she would need mating day 3-5 from the day of the test so that would make Friday-Sunday - so off we went to the stud and remained with him for three days, he is proven and showed no interested at all - but then she was now not swollen and spotting very dark blood.

So on the Sunday, the last day for mating according to the test I decided to go to my back up dog. Made a mad dash across the country and on arrival it looked promising, she was much more acceptant of him and he was much more intrested. I have left her there and still no mating. She is day 12 now and still not swollen and still dark blood, never has lightened. The dogs behaviour as a proven stud suggests she is not ready as does her behaviour. But this does not tie in with the results from the premate? As I would be two days late and even if I got a mating it could be that she doesn't take. But I've left her there to see.

So guess I am asking if anyone has had false readings and mated past the date given?

have you had her retested?
from what ive read and been told with both the inhouse premate and lab progesterone testing for it to be accurate you need to test multiple times as the date you were given to mate your girl in 3-5 days would be based on how the average bitches levels rise.

Hi Jo thank you for the reply. My vet told me I didn't need to retest but on the Sunday which my vet said was last chance to mate I stopped by a reproduction specialist vet for a Vaginal cytology, she said from what she could see she agreed with my vet and that if I wanted any chance of having pups I need to choose another stud and mate that say. Hence I made a mad dash that day. But being new to testing for ovulation I have been confused because from what I have read you want to mate 48 hours after ovulation so the eggs are mature enough to accept the sperm but going by the vets they are suggest I mate during ovulation?

Gets to difficult when using tests, much prefer to go by the dogs themselves and tests aside i am convinced she is not ready

Pre mate colour change test kits *can* give inaccurate reading if they are not in date, or not stored and brought to room temperature correctly.
Had someone come to stud with a bitch tested as ready using a pre mate but was no where near ready, she stayed over and ran serum progesterones at my own vet and she wasn't ready for a further 10 days. 

I ran some in house kits next to serum progesterone via lab and they were in ball park but certainly inerpretation of minor colour changes difficult. End result of experiment was lab serum progesterones preferable and my vet now only uses these in house kits as emergency cover for weekend and OOH ( esp for reverse progesterone testing for C Section )

Thank you KLB - I would have hoped the kit was used in the right manner as was done at the vets. - my girl is staying with stud and update tonight is that her blood has started to lighten, swelling increasing and more flirting. She's yet to flag but is a maidan. Going by her and the stud (without the tests) i would have thought a mating in the next 48 hours. But then today's is already 48 hours over what was recommended to be prime mating time. Totally thrown, I guess we will see in the next few days - I would be very interested in seeing if she went in to have pups if we get a mating!

First of all I never ever worry about dark blood.  In my experience most of my bitches have had a good mating during a heavy blood flow.  And continue to bleed after mating right up to the normal end of season.

Secondly!  I had a bitch that had a split season.  I found her tied to one of my own dogs on day 28.  Her chosen partner was a couple of hours drive away.  I took her to my vet who informed me that it was pointless giving her the mismate jab as she couldn't possibly be pregnant. 

She whelped to that mating on day 28.  A healthy litter.     

> my girl is staying with stud and update tonight is that her blood has started to lighten,

This has no relevance at all.

Jean thank you for your reply,  it has for me, have always found my girls to ligten around time of mating.
Typical isn't it when you have planned that practically mating. So there's hope for us yet!

You have to remember if the test did not show that she had yet reached ovulation, but was close the estimate would be based on the average rate of rise in progesterone.

Many bitches will stick for several days, some even drop.

Until you have a reading over 5ng that pinpoints ovulation has occurred it's really guesswork.

As you know the eggs won't ripen until two days after ovulation and remain viable for another 48 hours.

If you were doing AI from frozen semen she would be done three days after ovulation.

Hi brainless thanks for the reply, unfortunately I didn't have the progesterone levels tested, wish I had as would have had numbers to go by. I have the premate which works off a colour chart - my girls reading was c3, which means that egg has started to ripen and fertile period is 2-3 days after. So I had her tested Tuesday the 1st and was told to mate 3-5 days later Friday and Sunday. But no intrested from two experienced studs. I had a vaginal cytology done in the Sunday afternoon and was told that I needed a mating that day or would be to late!

My girl is a maiden so I expect little from her, but no flagging a little flirty and barely any swelling. - two experienced studs have shown little to no interest in her! She is day 12 now from the test day 9 was my last chance going by the test? - unsure what to do, I don't want my girl away from home an longer than needs be but if there is a chance that I could still get a successful mating then of course I want to try?

    Don't you think the more testing that's available, the more confusing this all gets?   I know I'm 'ancient' and very much old school, but provided I was using an experienced, proven stud dog, I tended to go by what I was seeing with my bitches as their seasons progressed (and it helped having resident stud dogs even if I was going outside my kennel for a breeding) AND by what the stud dog was doing.   I know distances make it more difficult (we travelled for 12 hours for one mating I wanted and then had to settle for an AI as the dog wasn't interested - SHE WAS) but if you know your bitch will be okay, and trust the breeders, it's usually possible to arrange to leave the bitch with the owner of the stud dog until, hopefully, the deed is done.

All mine faded to a pale straw colour discharge and a very enlarged vulva when ready to mate.   I did have one who, after a couple of good matings, went back to a more blood-coloured discharge which I'd not seen before and which had me thinking the mating(s) hadn't taken.   She had an uneventful pregnancy and 9 of probably the best puppies we've ever bred.   So good that we kept 2 bitches and a male, and they came back with others, to the UK from Canada.   One of the girls took her UK title and her sister her Stud Book entry.   Sadly the boy, who was a bit tight (mouth) going into quarantine, had gone slightly undershot by the time he came out.   I did let one breeder use him which she did twice to the same bitch as she was so happy with that mating.  No sign of any bad bites (that I knew about!) and he is back of quite a number of UK hounds now - including the bought-in one I have now.

the only time I used premate I had the almost result for the first two tests (so definitely a bitch that stuck at a certain level) two tests until I finally had the reading that showed ovulation had occurred.

With my own bitches I have rarely had a bitch ready before day 14/15 and often later.  she was tested day 10, 12, and 14.

Unless absolutely necessary I won't test again, and will rely on the dog and nature, as having all those blood draws is unpleasant (not to mention gets very expensive and soon more than the travel cost) and in her case stopped her enjoying any vet visits.

Yes I don't normally test would normally go by both dogs behaviour. This is the first time I have tested and only done so because I believed she had a split season. All it's done is complicate things. I am going to leave her at the studs a few more days to see, as going by the stud she is not ready or totally missed

I'd do the same.

Could even mean she hasn't/won't ovulate this season if the hormones are all over the place with a split season. 

I had a bitch miss with a season where the dog was half hearted, eventually mating her, yet the next season was completely different and no messing (both proven animals), with successful outcome.

Hi mamabas, thank you for your reply. I do believe the more thats available the more it becomes confusing! I won't use these tests again and will go off of behaviour, this is why I am willing to leave her at the studs and see what happens. Although even if we get a mating we could be to late, it will be interesting to see! Like toy all
Mine have started to lighten to a straw colour around the time they are ready to mate, the studs owner said my girl has started to lighten later last night so we will see what occurs!

If her vulva is still swollen and tense that would suggest to me that she is still too early, usually the vuvlal swelling subsides  and become softer to allow penetration post ovulation. As said before have had false high readings with these test kits so hope all is not list for you. If the stud owners vet can run a serum progesterone I would run one to get an idea of where exactly she is in her season, may also give useful info to present to vet who did pre mate kit - especially if progesterone x days later are only showing levels just above ovulation. When this happened in our situation the bitch owners vet refunded costs for pre mates that were found to be out of date, investigation following production of serum progesterone levels uncovered the error

Sadly I think a lot of vets have very little experience or sympathy with helping with breeding. 

I know it's a few years but I had to ring around all the local vets to even get one to get the test kit in, and none of the vets had ever used one.

I didn't use my own vet as he only works 4 days a week and has locums for Friday and Saturday cover.

Thank you all for your replies. It's been a very confusing experience. Day 15 I went to collect my girl, missing her like crazy. They may be show dogs but also sofa dogs lol - anyways while I was on route she had a 12 minute tie, and while I was there two slip matings - I was originally told to mate day 9 - 11 will be very intrested to see the outcome in a few weeks. - she didn't swell till day 13 and it soft, how I wound expect when ready her blood lightened for a day and went back to dark shortly after.

I agree a lot of vets don't want to help with breeding. I travel 20mins to my vet and they have been fab always with breeding advice and weak pups - if an emergency I have to go closer but I don't get the same level of care. My vets Know I know my dogs and pups and listen which is always a bonus.

Day 14 I asked and was tested between 65 - 90 nmol there a reduced chance of her taking from mating!

Had two "slip" matings, for the love if god 4 days of trying no tie, he ejaculated in her today twice, he's a unproven stud and she is a maiden, what u think my chances are? Thanks in advance

never ever used premate or any testing .im old fashioned and go by when the bitch is flagging.never had any problems mating.have had bitches mated on days 7 right to day 12 and still caught.id never rely on any scientific methods.

> have had bitches mated on days 7 right to day 12

that bit made me laugh, as I have never had a bitch mated before day 12 and normally not got a litter unless the bitch was mated after day 15 and one bitch hasn't been ready until day 18 - 22

I agree though that I prefer to keep things natural, especially as the only time I did do premate on one bitch who refused to stand wanting to act the stud.

It was very unpleasant for her having blood drawn three times, and made future vet visits more stressful, and sometimes you'd need more tests than that with a later ovulating bitch if you start at day 8.

Often a slip is a sign that the bitch isn't quite ready.  I would be trying until the bitch is no longer willing to stand and want at least another mating.

As long as the dog remained in the bitch after the ladder climbing for at least a minute then chances are the goods were delivered, but a tie is more satisfactory.  I'd certainly not be paying an upfront fee for a slip mating.

I've not paid anything the stud is unproven, I'm trying again tonight, she defo standing right for him, but he's a heavy dog and she a lot smaller, soon as I get close to help they both stop. Will let you kno how get on tonight, was just wondering if anyone had any success just from slip mating is it 50/50 or less?

I think it's breed dependant, only ever heard of one, and a singleton at that, from a slip mating, in my breed.

Have had a litter of 6 from a single tie day 8 so all depends on ovulation timing for that dog.

Thank you to those that commented on my original post. I had my girl scanned on Thursday and it was negative. However I believe she may be going onto have a phantom. I wasn't convinced she would take from the tie due to the test, but she sure showed some common signs that she had taken!

I can totally see why people don't use these tests and I never will again, if it wasn't for the split season this time I wouldn't have either.

As regards to slip matings I have known people have a healthy nice sized litter from it. Since the most sperm filled fluid is released before the lock even occurs.