A friend of mine took on a shih tzu on 28th June, Gracie was at end of a season and my friend was assured that although she has 2 litters of shih tzus of different ages for sale and male shih tzu (Gracie's father) and a staff around Gracie had not mated. Well it turns out that was a fib and Gracie is 6-7 weeks pregnant (we think, she had a home scanner out last week that checked for the pregnancy and said she was roughly 5-6 weeks, we have no clue when she mated or which dog with. Anyways I posted on a Shih tzu forum and was recommended Gracie has an X-ray just before she is due(we think she would be due around 22nd August the week my friend is on holiday so Gracie will be staying with me)

My friend has contacted 2 vets that say they won't do it, as the advice I have is from breeders from another country I was wondering if it needs to be done (I do like sound of it for checking if they will be right size for her to deliver or not) or what vets will do it (I'm in Coventry)

Poor Gracie is only a year old so still a baby herself, my friend and I both want to do everything possible to make sure she and her pups get the best start possible. Any help would be very much appreciated x

I can't see any reason not to x-ray, to see the size of the puppies, JUST BEFORE DUE DUE DATE.   So I don't know why two vets should have refused to do this, unless they were asked to do this some weeks before her due date.   Checking for size, re whether she's going to need a C.Section to deliver these puppies, just makes sense if the sire is 'unknown'!

It's probably too late now, but personally as soon as I discovered she was pregnant, I'd have taken her in for a gravid spay.   And if these people had been responsible would have had her spayed BEFORE being homed into what is presumably a pet home!!

The vets she spoke to said due to risks of anasetic? We are not 100% sure when she is due it's all guess work based on the scan. It's so frustrating because we just want the best for Gracie. The first thing my friend enquired about was spaying but vets won't do it this far along. So now all we want is a healthy mum and pups. She will be spayed as soon as she is allowed after pups are born. Yes this was a pet home, my friend has 3 small children one being a 6mth old so it's not what she wanted. I will be helping as much as I can by having Gracie week she is away, and if for any reason my friend can't cope with the litter I will have them here for her as I have my 16yr olds bedroom downstairs where none of my pets or children are allowed so can give her quiet time and a safe space for pups to run around if needed. My youngest is 6 so old enough to understand he can't treat them like toys and needs to be gentle if he plays (when they big enough) if we can get a vet to X-ray her just before my friend goes away we will get it done for peace of mind.

Any chance they can do an ultrasound instead as no need for any GA then and many mobile scanners around for around £30 to visit the home

Personally I would never x-ray a pregnant animal (NOT because of the actual x-ray, but because of the stress involved and the need to either sedate or put the bitch under general anaesthetic) and can't see any reason to do so either -what difference would it make? I know it's done a lot abroad but we all seem to manage here without it.

I would keep asking different vets  if you really want to x ray..I had a bitch x rayed that was 6 days over due without any GA....I'm sure you will find a helpful vet if you persevere.

Bless you for helping her and your friend.

Personally though I agree with goldmali and wouldn't x ray unless she was showing a problem with labour not progressing.

Thank you all, a few have suggested an ultrasound will do the same thing so she is booked in for one Tuesday with a vet, after them explaining X-ray risks we don't want to put her through it if we don't have to, and only reason for one was worry over skull size. The vet has assured my friend they can take all measurements to ensure she can whelp by herself. The vet will be discussing payment options if a section should be needed too (though would I be right to assume if vet determines she can not whelp naturally he will be able to book her in just before my friend goes away or at least sort payment before she goes)

I am praying that she can do it alone and when time comes has cute little tzus with no drama so I can breath! I will be on eggshells that week!

> but vets won't do it this far along.

I have heard this excuse before but it doesn't really wash, they did it in the past, (when vets seemed far more pragmatic) and it can't carry any more risk than a C section, which is fairly likely here.

I get quite hot under the collar at some of the advice as another poster found vet didn't recommend having the antimate (Alizin) jab (which can be given up to 6 weeks in whelp, but normally at the end of the season)and to proceed with pregnancy and the bitch died having a C section and they are left rearing 5 unplanned orphan pups.

Your decision, but x-ray around the due date shouldn't be a problem - many people do this and it's way better to find out whether a C.Section is going to be needed, immediately prior to the birth, than to just leave it.   Scanning - not reliable enough re size.  So I can't see the point! 

I can only feed back the info my friend is getting from the vets, I have no reason to not believe her seeing as I've seen the stressing she has been doing since finding out, she isn't the type to have a litter just because. We know the risks hense trying to get all our info together now. If she was irresponsible I doubt she would be flapping about like she is and if I was I doubt I'd be here posting now, she could have simply moved her on or dumped her in a rescue but she would never do that.

However I also know people are numpties and will do as they please, and I know you don't know me from Adam so I can see where you are coming from. I personally am very passionate about animals and would love to see strict licensing bought in for dog owners in general but special ones for breeders and I'd love to see proper punishments given to those that do not breed sensibly. I hate how over flowing rescues are and I hate how people will go for free or cheap dogs only to rehome because they can't handle them yet have never looked into the breeds they're getting to know they'd be yappy or boisterous etc.

Back to Gracie though I do wish the previous owner had just given her that jab or got her spayed or at least told my friend she had mated. We wouldn't be in this situation now if she had. Heck I wish my friend wasn't to keen to see the best in people and got her spayed as soon as she had her rather then booking her in for after her holiday but it's happened now and it is what it is and all I want to do is help her make sure everyone comes out of this okay. Obviously we are not planning a section just want to cover all basis so when the time comes if help is needed we get it fast. We are hoping more then anything for everything to run smoothly and Gracie deliver fine and look after all her pups fine but we know we have to be prepared for anything that may go wrong.

Good luck, hope all goes well. x

I'm not a breeder so I'm sorry I cant be of any real help.  I only helped (more like, witnessed, worried and helped a bit) with a litter once. that ended up an emergency C-section  - and that was with a very healthy promising show girl who had previously had a litter of 5 with no problem (1 daughter who fast became made up/a champ), this was her second litter (and last!) and it had be planned for a year. She mated just once, tied once, fell straight away and pregnancy was confirmed by scan as being at least 2 possibly 3 pups if I remember right. The litter was very VERY planned in every which way, sire was a proven and carefully selected stud from a fantastic breeder, selected by both sire and bitch owner as being a great mix with exciting potential, for both health reasons and, as I call it "conformation & cuteness" reasons (but then I don't do technical words!) Everything went smooth with the pregnancy with no hiccupps, worries, scares, eating issues, nothing  - no signs of any problems  - then the day came and she started - and then it all just went wrong - long story short, C-section happened overnight as an emergency with vet saying not to expect any live pups and to just be glad to have saved the mum - then low and behold 2  mummified pups and .... 2 healthy ones born and okay, as well as mum (I own one of the pups) .   I only say all this because, well, known sire or not, planned or not, maiden or not, sometimes even in perfect circumstances and months of careful planning and preparation ...  "s**t just happens" ....and you should both be applauded for not shying away from doing everything for Gracie and specifically for "planning for the worst and hoping for the best" - I am a firm believer that is the only way to go!  But then I am also far too much of a worrier to ever breed!

Anyway - forget all my waffle - I just wanted to say - PLEASE don't forget this thread once you have your scan or x-ray and your advice - it is going to play on my mind - so I just wanted to ask pretty please and beg that you remember to come back and say what happened not just with xray/scan but with, well the outcome in in the end.  Please know I am crossing my fingers and toes and sending you all positive thoughts wishing, against the odds as it may feel in some ways by having so many unknown and rushed factors involved in her pregnancy, that she has a "text book" perfect whelp, healthy pups, and is a happy, good mum. But please let us know !!!!

(P.S. = Person your friend got Gracie from should be ASHAMED of themselves and I hope Karma comes to bite them in the bum one day!)

> I would keep asking different vets  if you really want to x ray..I had a bitch x rayed that was 6 days over due without any GA....I'm sure you will find a helpful vet if you persevere

So nice to see I'm not the only one!  I had a bitch x-rayed (to see if there were problems) and the vet didn't mess around with a GA either.  As it happened we needed a GA for a section, as x-ray showed malpresentation and she would never have managed.  I was so glad that the vet offered.  But I've twice had x-rays without using anaesthetic.  As there is no risk involved having an x-ray so close to whelping I would do it again if it was required.

I  think you misunderstand I have recently seen several situations where VETS have really screwed up with advice, and another case of acting incompetently.

Someone I know was trying to get their vet to take DNA Cheek samples for health testing (they were nto confident to do it themselves having already submitted insufficient sample).

Then telling the owner there were no such tests and taking blood samples and sending them to IDEXX who are a lab that do titre and other blood levels for diesae and chartging them £300+ for doing so!.  That's more than the cost of the DNA tests.

Now no-one expects the vet to know everything about every species and every breed, but the Kennel club has a list of DNA tests on-line and the Laboratories that carry them out, and of course the BVA themselves administer several health schemes in conjunction with the KC.

Thank you Tinar, I will update this post tues then post a new post when pups are here. I'm sorry your experience wasn't a positive one. I have everything crossed Gracie's will run smooth!

I am very sorry brainless I did read you wrong, when you said you didn't buy it I thought you meant what I was saying. Gracie as far as I know has never had any tests done :(

The veterinary profession have a poor opinion of breeders in general so it doesn't help that they aren't making it easy for people to be responsible.

Sorry it has taken a while to update this thread, we never did get an X-ray but did have another ultrasound as we said we would, the vet said 3 pups but had agreed a 4th was possible, he had no concern with size of pups or anything, on the 18th August she had 3 healthy girls, no idea where that 4th pup disappeared to, mum and babies are doing fab and they all go back to their owner tomorrow. I will miss them lots!

I'm so so so happy for you - so glad all worked out well in the end.  Thank you for coming back and letting us know!!!!!