On the lunchtime news another devastated farmer learns eight of his cattle tested positive for bovine to and waiting news on newly calved cows and calves.When asked how did he feel the cattle caught TO he advised deers have been in the area and maybe a rogue badger. He advised he thought yes it most likely is the Badger! This made me think, is it always the badger's fault? We have had cattle and Badgers and deer's in contact with each other for centuries. We often have legalised culling of Badger's yet still bovine TB exists, we have larger numbers of Deer now should they be culled? Fenced in? Why is bovine TB still in cattle?
Is it better to have a vaccine for cattle? Should we cull all Badger's?  Is it really a health problem to humans?  The cattle tested positive have already had milk taken into the food chain. Will all these products be tracked and recalled?  Part of me thinks not.
I still feel the poor Badger takes all the blame and should we blame them all the time?

Sadly many farmers know it's the badger in their case. I work with farmers (including those in the Somerset cull areas) and a farm recently went down with the diagnosis that it was a badger that got into the forage stores. They even had a camera to watch it. Many don't realise that a vaccination would cost so so so much more than a controlled cull, and is almost completely impractal But very week I see farmers loose their livelihoods to TB so I understand that very measure should be taken to try and prevent it. They genuinely arnt just thinking "which wild life species shall we district next?"

Fair enough the animals have been around for centuries and walked together for those. But disease develop, get stronger, easier to pass along and this is the case with TB.

It's getting worse and I truly believe that a planned and organised cull of badgers would help, they have been talking about introducing wolves back into the wild due to the overpopulation of deer as well

When people talk about the dreadful badger cull (only a matter of a few thousand animals) I notice that they never mention the many, many thousands of cattle that we cull annually.  So many TB spores in badger urine on pasture land.  Has everyone asked why areas with no badgers have healthy cattle?  Because the badgers love our soil down south.

Oh boy, all these people (including Mr Guitar Man) should see grown men weeping, at the end of their tether.  Many of these farmers have built up great herds by years of sensible breeding.  Whatever Joe Public says about the pitiful compensation the farmers get, they omit the fact that farmers can't buy the same quality, they have to start from scratch.

It is awful to see the Farmers distraught about losing prized animals and their livelihood. I know guitar man campaigns for the Badger and I do feel for both parties. What is the best solution?
I did read about the reintroduction of Wolves back into the wild ironically thou farmers are not keen when said animals eat their stock! Would organised Deer shootings be a way forward?

Cull all badgers would be my answer, but I'm not really allowed to say that!  (So I didn't)

but the name is Bovine TB, the castle passed it to the Badgers etc in the first place and surely another species should not be killed simply because we don't want to vaccinate the cattle.

But many farms operate a closed herd only keeping and calving what they breed. Since the "creation" of TB farmers have done everything they can to prevent it getting back into closed herds (mainly by closing the herd which isn't a great business plan in itself!). If they can't control the bager population a bagers can simply walk it from one herd to another. The bager has no preditor (except for a the car but road deaths are not as common as you may think). Therefore the population needs management to prevent the consistent breeding of the infected carrier.

The Cattle vaccine is still years from final use (costing millions to develop) and the current bager vaccine doesn't "cure" bagers that are already infected. So the problem is still there.

It is problematic, but I see lots of Badgers on the roadside this time of year.

Excellent post sqwoofle.

I've spoken to my dad about this and there isn't one currently, so with no vaccine what do you do?

Reply to no one inparticular

TB is not discriminate..it can take your 'best' cows & ones which are heavily pregnant..therefore the life of the calf aswell! It doesn't make a difference on breed, so even the very rare breeds can fall to it.. It doesn't care how many In a herd either, also the knock effect can be hard to bare...

Yes its indiscriminate and takes no prisoners just like Cancer. My query was with the affected cattle do the authorities track milk and all by products and remove it from the food chain?
What would happen instead of culling the cows they are separated and then treated? Would they recover as humans do? We have never had a test programme for this. Plus are the actual tests ie check size of lumps outdated and need updating?
Bovine TB has been here for a long time and always advised vaccine for cattle too expensive! The same manufacturers, laboratories are happy to have money thrown at them for testing make up products, artificial sweetners ,ready made meals, meat to see if it's horse! So why not put some of that finance to vaccines?
As brainless advised many sightings of road kill badger's on the roads (spotted two this week) so the Badger has the car as it's enemy.
Farmers should get the full price for their cattle culled but they don't

I just think culling large numbers of Badgers would possibly create other problems, they are here for a reason, along with the Fox they also eat smaller mammals they keep their numbers in check, rabbits, rats, mice... birds, its the circle of life, removing a large number of Badgers we will be increasing the numbers of smaller mammals who also cause damage and can carry disease and viruses.

From a human point of view, cattle are more important to us (unless you are vegetarian then I guess you don't care) the Farmers and their livelihood IMO come first.

However, for me culling isn't the answer, I'm wondering whether we could find a way to introduce a vaccine to the Badger in infected areas, rather than thousands of cattle, I know strains mutate, any vaccine may do no good in the end, but perhaps a few gun darts of vaccine shot into badgers with a microchip for identification could help the situation instead? I know they are notoriously difficult to find, but once a den is found it could perhaps be a way forward?............just an idea.

I'm not happy about a re-introduction of wolves into this country, I would prefer deer shoots to keep down numbers or even some kind of birth control implant/neutering in some males to keep numbers down? No point in introducing a dangerous predator, it is the one thing I like about this country, nothing here that wants to eat us, even if in the vast countryside of Scotland etc, it is still a worry for me. Guns in the right hands do the job much safer and with far less risk.

Without having enough knowledge about the how and whys in all of this, I have every sympathy for people who have cattle.   Just as with any bloodline, it must be totally heartbreaking to have to cull affecteds to say nothing of the regular testing, and waiting for a bad result.

I know badgers are cute and cuddly (would they looked like rats), but there are thousands of them and they have no boundaries.   Vaccination would be great but until then, there absolutely must be some form of control and again I'm totally on the side of the farmer.

So no, for me it's the farmers who are getting the raw deal.

And don't get me started on FOXES.    Any animal who kills for the sake of killing, which foxes do, needs controlling - small point, who picks up after foxes (urban)?    And they spread mange too.

The Cattle vaccine is still years from final use (costing millions to develop) and the current bager vaccine doesn't "cure" bagers that are already infected. So the problem is still there.

Just spotted your post.........

Well in infected areas my suggestion is no good then...........guess the one and only solution in those areas is to cull, but in none affected areas perhaps the vaccine should be given a go.

Question: For some farmers is it possible to perhaps build brick walls/metal barriers, that run deep under ground to enclose and protect cattle, guess the cost would be astronomical the amount of land some cattle are in, but is it an idea worth thinking of? Not being a farmer; is the reason we use open fencing due to green rules, government/environmental reasons or for the cattles' well being? I think if I were a farmer I'd be making sure nothing could get in, but I guess that may interfere with other animals freedom to roam?

> I would prefer deer shoots to keep down numbers

This is the sensible option, after all we have squeezed them out for ore own uses, often for domestic livestock, so let them breed and utilise their meet instead/as well.

As for whether domestic livestock and human needs come first, we have got to learn to share this erth ro eventually there will be no wildlife left on the planet.

Check out the videos about the wildlife of Chernobyl, how ntue can manage when man is taken out fo the equation.

That should say how nature can manage

> how ntue can manage when man is taken out fo the equation.

> My query was with the affected cattle do the authorities track milk and all by products and remove it from the food chain?

Tb is not able to be caught through the milk due to the process it goes through.

> What would happen instead of culling the cows they are separated and then treated?

They are separated but HAVE to be culled then tested for TB lesions

> Farmers should get the full price for their cattle culled but they don't

They get market value irrelevant if the animal is pedigree or not or if is young or old or if it is rare.

I meant thou if we separate the affected cattle and let them recover? If milk not affected they could still have a productive life if calves not affected? I've not seen any reports or statistics showing if cattle can recover like humans from TB?
Deer hunts legally arranged could help control numbers, provide meat (adore venison and it's low in fat) after all Deer have been hunted in the past by the Aristocratic old families and the King himself! It may also create jobs tending Deer stock, organising hunts and keeping guns safe.
We often save environments and wildlife but are we interfering sometimes in the wrong way?
On the news again showing huge piles of earth from the tunnelling under London (I worry re subsidence) to the east coast.Here the tide has been reclaiming the coastline yet it's been held back by sea defences until loads of earth dumped, levelled and then the sea let in to create a huge wet land for wildlife. 60 years ago we couldn't have achieved this and it would have just breached the land and lost some wildlife but it is a natural event. Are we picking and choosing which land/species we choose to protect?
We do as brainless advised share this earth so should we not interfere?

> milk not affected they could still have a productive life if calves not affected?

It is not passed on through the milk we drink to the processing (pasteurising etc).

It is quite complicated to explain but a cow which has reacted to the TB testing is culled to see if it has TB lesions. Culling is a strict DEFRA/government rule, this isn't a choice not to even if the cow is in calf!!

> Culling is a strict DEFRA/government rule, this isn't a choice not to even if the cow is in c

Well maybe with technology and veterinary advances another way could be found than culling the cattle, fi they can productively recover. 

If there is no danger to human health then other methods need to be utilised/developed. 

Seems like a sledgehammer approach.

A TB reactor(found on the farm pre-tests, which can be every 60 days) is culled, THEN tested to see if it actually had TB lesions. It can then found to have or not have actual TB but is dead!! One doesn't know if they can recover, as said before the farmer has no choice, the cow HAS to be CULLED to see if it has TB or not!! The only way to fully test is to cull the animal.

> It is quite complicated to explain but a cow which has reacted to the TB testing is culled to see if it has TB lesions. Culling is a strict DEFRA/government rule, this isn't a choice not to even if the cow is in calf!!

Yes, very difficult to explain.  But the law is the law.  Do you have any idea how awful it is to tell a farmer that we are picking up his newly calved cow (with her baby)  because it is harrowing. 

As to Barbara's suggestion, I've had these arguments over, and over, and over again for many, many years.  It isn't jus DEFRA that makes the rules.  There will often be updates that change which animals qualify for testing (such as under 6 week old calves) but as soon as the EU makes the new rule that we have to obey, an email is whipped out pretty damn smart, and we have to obey.

I have argued the case that we shouldn't have to have the EU make our rules.  But If we had a vaccine that was cheap enough to use on our cows, the EU forbid us from importing that meat.  Sometimes it helps to be retired from it all, but after dozens of years on the disease it still bothers me.

Yes. Correct.  Short and Curlies.

If we have a referendum regarding Europe and people want to have the vote should we stay in? If we did leave the EU would we then have different rules by defra ?  Would we try and separate, treat the cattle for TB and see if recovers without culling.
I am aware and really feel for the Farmer's losing their stock and livelihood. We for me have to much interference from Brussels.

> If we have a referendum regarding Europe and people want to have the vote should we stay in?

No, No and No.

Well that's my vote sorted then. 

they have been talking about introducing wolves back into the wild due to the overpopulation of deer as well

And when the wolves eat lots of deer and breed well and numbers become larger, there suddenly won't be enough deer for them to eat, so they take what they can. At home in Sweden wolves have found their ways into the towns and into people's gardens where they kill dogs, and hence now there is a wolf hunt every year with so many wolves being shot -last time I heard the figure was just over 100 wolves to be shot for the year.

> I know badgers are cute and cuddly (would they looked like rats),

I've heard the screaming when a badger ripped a cat to pieces.  And I've heard farmers swear that they take new born lambs.  Farmers are pretty au fait with recognising paw prints.

Just picking up on the Europe Vote point .... for me it's NOT as simple as yes/no.   I was all for the Common Market because I think originally having a trade agreement with Europe made sense.   Since then we appear to have sold our souls to Europe to the point I wonder why we fought two WWs.    So my vote remains 'unknown' as yet - I want Yes for trade and a resounding NOOOOOOOOOOOO for anything else.  Including most of all interference into every aspect of British Life, by Brussels.

And now apparently Germany has annexed the French when it comes to any renegotiation on the part of the UK.... sorry to hijack this thread.

Living in a high TB area (Gloucestershire), I hugely sympathise with the farmers, they really get a rough deal on this issue. Deer definitely carry TB and probably spread it to cattle. One of the local farmers tells me that TB was introduced into this area due to deer, long story so won't go into it. There is a high population of deer here, roe, fallow and muntjac, which are often seen despite regular culls. Deer also eat all the understory in woodlands which many birds like either as nesting or cover, therefore many of those birds, such as nightingales, are no longer in the area.
Badger population is very high, they are not an endangered species, and tbh, need to be culled along with the deer, introducing Wolves is a horrendous idea and the fallout would be tremendous. I can already see Joanna Lumley inviting the local city wolf to come and sit on her sofa.
I don't know if any of you are watching Springwarch at the moment? Last year a badger was filmed swimming out to the scrapes and eating all the young avocet chicks which the RSPB thought the gulls were doing. This year a fence has been erected to try and prevent the badger from entering the area, but it may not be enough for a hungry badger.
Overpopulation of any species can have wide ranging effects on the environment, birds of prey are now under attack now that there are more of them and their interesting hunting habits can be seen in the garden.

I did see the clip on spring watch regarding the Badger eating Avocet chicks it is nature's way cruel but natural. The fences may help but we did see a clip of the same Badger? Digging under the fence quite deeply!
When I watched a nature show re polar bears and a poor mum was starving and her cubs after losing a catch to a solo male. I so wished the crew would have helped they didn't. I often wonder do we pick and choose when to intervene? Should we help?

It was Chris Packham who was suggesting putting the wolves back into the UK countryside along with other people in the same field as him

Does anyone know how many of the culled badgers actually had TB?   And if deer and other wild animals carry TB, why kill only badgers?

They only culled badgers in the most heavily infected TB areas.  They all would have had TB.  I never watched one post mortem on a badger that didn't have lesions.

So would it be cheaper to vaccinate Badger's?  A dart gun used or possibly a spray mist into the den? Are Deer TB positive results growing?
I still feel we could keep affected cattle separate, monitor and treat them and then see how TB can be controlled.

> we could keep affected cattle separate, monitor and treat them and then see how TB can be controlled.

I have said at least twice in this thread, that the farmer has no choice, they are governed by DEFRA..any suspects are culled, then tested further!!!

It's costs over £1000 per a badger to initiate a vaccination program. Don't think that sort of expenditure is on the top of government spending lists at the moment. The cost of a cull is much much lower, and trained marksmen (often farmers themselves) would probably rather put in the time for the sake of their farm rather then the money.

Simply if a cow is tested positive from TB there is no way it can be kept alive. The risk of spreading is too high and this is why they HAVE to be destroyed.

> I have said at least twice in this thread, that the farmer has no choice, they are governed by DEFRA..any suspects are culled, then tested further!!!

We aren't saying that the farmers have a choice at present, rather that the government/DEFRA could look at other options, (vaccinating cattle), and change to more humane policies as science advances.

Glad my brother wasn't a cow, as he tested positive to the pre BCG vaccine test.

Yes I'm saying if we do come out of the EU then why couldn't we try this as a test group? Defra yes currently just says "off with their heads" yet are they not outdated tests and views?
Until we try how are we supposed to move forward! Too many people keep saying cull Badger's, Cull deer's, Cull birds of prey, cull wild boars!

> So would it be cheaper to vaccinate Badger's?

No, but anyway, would you want to catch one and inject it?  They are vicious.  I wouldn't want to do it (would I have to give him a card like my vet gives me for my dogs booster? Otherwise I wouldn't know which one was which.)  All the arguments on the forum are totally old hat.  With no  disrespect meant, scientists have had this topic for years and years.  Nobody on this forum will ever come up with a suitable solution.  And without knowing the full details (which nobody is allowed to discuss due to official secrets act) this conversation can go round in never ending circles.

> I still feel we could keep affected cattle separate, monitor and treat them and then see how TB can be controlled.

No we can't.  It isn't our choice.  The EU rules us with an iron hand.  We are stuck with it unless we come out of the EU.

Glad my brother wasn't a cow, as he tested positive to the pre BCG vaccine test.

Haha me too! My pre BCG test was so bad they sent me to hospital for instant X-rays to make sure I didn't actually have TB!!

True a lot of discussion on any topics can go on and on, will England ever get the world cup/win the Eurovison, will we ever leave the EU, will we see dog wardens back, will we get rid of puppy farms! The beauty of free speech and the option to discuss is enjoyed by a lot both here and else where I'd hate to live where I fear to discuss topics or even to drive a car or forget to be dressed appropriately.
We may not come up with a eureka idea for Bovine TB however with discussions come campaigns come petitions which do end up in high places and show the peoples feelings.
Yes if armed with dart gun I'd take part in a vaccine programme. Possibly within the dart a tracker could be placed? After all we can even number snakes now to track them in fields etc so the technology is there.
Have a lovely first day of summer