Hello

I have never posted on here before I usually just read posts!
I'm wondering if there's anyone that could reassure me with premate testing (idexx)

I tested my girl on day 10 at 8.30am and results came back following day of 1.8nmol
I then retested day 13 at 8.30am and it had gone up slightly to 2.8, idexx then advised to retest on day 17 which is Tuesday.

She is day 15 today and has suddenly turned very interested in my neutered male this morning she was nibbling his back legs and being a pest to him. Then this evening I let them into the garden before there supper and two mins later when I went back to the garden they where tied! I couldn't believe it! He's not shown interests in any girls for about 4 years. Once they where appart my girl was going crazy trying to get him back on with her tail right to the side... So they are now seperated.
My question is... Could she change from 2.8 on Friday morning to ready in 3 days? Should I retest tomorrow instead of Tuesday as idexx advised?
Would be interested in people's opinions!
I have to travel a 12 hour round trip so would like to be half prepared!

Thanks

I'd retest in the morning.

Short answer to your question is "YES, she could have gone from 2.8 to ready in 3 days"!  I had exactly the same thing happen when my bitch tested at 3.2nMol and then three days later had shot up to 36.5nMol.  I take her straight up to the stud the same day as that reading, but wasn't able to get a mating until the next day, by which time I think she had gone over, as no pups....

But lots of bitches will stand before they are 'ready', and often neutered males don't quite get it right either, so hopefully you are still in the window.  Good luck.

Edited to add: I think these labs that do quantitative readings only give you a 'standard' time frame for retesting and mating, based on what the average bitch does.  But if the levels are suddenly shooting up you need to adjust their advice accordingly.  I've missed two bitches now listening to their advice when to mate, and I am convinced it is because my bitches stayed in the low reading for a while, and then suddenly shot up with rates double what the standard bitch would do.  This would mean that instead of mating them two days after predicted ovulation time you would need to mate them one day after or actually at ovulation to catch them...

Progesterone testing itself works if you pinpoint ovulation, as KM says the problem occurs with when to test as obviously you don't want t6o have to bleed your bitch daily or every other day if you can help it, so they advice according to what an average bitch does then you get low readings.

The only way to be absolutely sure not to miss sudden rise is to test every other day (expensive and unpleasant), until you get a reading that shows ovulation has  occurred, and still get to stud in time.

If only there was a way of testing right here and now (no more than a couple of hours wait time) and not have to take blood.

Failing that the best things seems to be a proven stud w2ho knows his job who has access to the bitch for a prolonged period before she is ready and after she has gone over.

Thanks for your advice. She was 2.8 on Friday and I'm away to get her tested again at 12.30 today. It takes 24 hours to get results back from idexx as my vet posts them.
Im assuming if she did ovulate say Sunday the best time for mating would be Tuesday/Wednesday going by what idexx advise?

0-2 nmol/L Baseline concentrations too early to estimate ovulation
3 - 6 nmol /L Minimum 2 days before ovulation expected however result of 3 - 4 nmol/L may persist for a week or longer before increasing. Earliiest estimating breeding 4 - 6 days but could be longer (re test needed)
7 - 12 nmol/L Minimum 1 day before ovulation. Estimated window for breeding 3 - 5 days but could be longer ( re test recommended)
13 - 18 nmol/L Ovulation impending or just occurred. Estimated breeding window 2 - 4 days
19 - 31 nmol/L Ovulation recently occurred. Estimated breeding window 1 - 3 days
32 - 64 nmol/L Ova have matured, optimal potential for fertility. Estimated breeding window 0 - 2 days
65 - 90 nmol/L Ova have matured but aging, decreased potential for fertility. Breed at once
Above 90 nmol/L Too late

Yes if they were doing AI they'd do it three days after ovulation, but for natural service 2 - 4 days after ovulation is optimum.  If doing two matings 1 and 3 days after ovulation ideal

Welcome to the forum Blackhearts80

Yes it's totally possible she could be ready. I tested a bitch who went from 1.1 to 3.6 in 5 days then 2 days later was 10.5 and the next day 14.6 time of ovulation. Sometimes you have to trust your gut. If it was me I would drive to the stud today then at least you are already there when the results come through as that will only give you a snapshot of where she was 24hrs ago.

I've never blood tested, but I have had plenty of neutered dogs tie with my bitches, and that has always been a few days BEFORE the stud dogs said the bitch was ready. Often also at least 2 days before the bitch would allow an outside stud dog to mate her. The neutered friend at home always seems to be accepted sooner.

Given how stressful the frequent blood draws can be, how do people who don't test try to ensure the best timing for visiting a stud dog? 

ANd/or, in The Old Days, before blood testing like this existed, what did experienced breeders do?

I know blood testing is the most reliable and best way to determine ovulation, but just wondering what Ye Olde Fashioned Methods are!  (Beyond just always aiming for day 13!) (Or is that it?)

Well I don't know if I have just been lucky, but I have always just gone on how the stud dog and bitch acts, and I've never had a bitch miss, ever. I have 3 times had dogs refusing to mate a bitch though, so swapped dogs and that worked. In two cases maybe they would have mated the next day, I will never know -the journeys involved were too long to attempt it again due to my husband having to get to work. In the third case both the dogs were at the same location and one mated and produced a litter, the other refused to mate the bitch.

Thanks Goldmali... But to see how the stud dog acts, the bitch owner has to travel to you - so when do you first ask them to do that? 

I don't much like the idea of lots of blood draws to determine ovulation - but I guess if that's the way it's gotta be...

> Often also at least 2 days before the bitch would allow an outside stud dog to mate her. The neutered friend at home always seems to be accepted sooner.

Same with their girlfriends they will stand rampantly for them and still tell the boys no, or the boys say not.

But to see how the stud dog acts, the bitch owner has to travel to you - so when do you first ask them to do that? 

Ah -can't answer that one as my own dogs have only been used on my bitches, and hence having entire male dogs of my own, when I take a bitch to stud, I use them to tell me.

> ANd/or, in The Old Days, before blood testing like this existed, what did experienced breeders do?<br />

What we in our breed still do aim to get the bitch to stud before she is likely to be ready and stay there until she is mated an preferably until she has gone over when either she refuses the make or male looses interest.

With my own bitches fertile matings have resulted from days 14 - 18 most usually, and I have also had one bitch not ready until days 18 - 2.

This procedure usually results in males that know what they are doing, and who after the first couple of times prefer to wait until they feel the bitch s spot on.

I don't have the luxury of a male dog on site, so have to make a calculated guess.  When I have goen abroad I have travelled on day 10 arranged to stay 10 days to two weeks.

> What we in our breed still do aim to get the bitch to stud before she is likely to be ready and stay there until she is mated an preferably until she has gone over when either she refuses the make or male looses interest.<br /><br />With my own bitches fertile matings have resulted from days 14 - 18 most usually, and I have also had one bitch not ready until days 18 - 2.<br /><br />This procedure usually results in males that know what they are doing, and who after the first couple of times prefer to wait until they feel the bitch s spot on.<br /><br />I don't have the luxury of a male dog on site, so have to make a calculated guess.  When I have goen abroad I have travelled on day 10 arranged to stay 10 days to two weeks.

Wow, and is all that boarding of the bitch and repeated trying included in the single stud fee?  Or do you pay extra for that?  In our breed, If we expected stud dog owners to routinely board a bitch for a week/two weeks I can't see them thinking that it is worth the stud fee!  I know I wouldn't want to do that on a regular basis.

> Wow, and is all that boarding of the bitch and repeated trying included in the single stud fee?

Well the stud fee is the price of a puppy, The dog doesn't mind the work, and the fee surely compensates the stud owner for their time and trouble surely, (don't know many folk who earn £750 for a weeks work, and 10 days boarding kennels would be £100) and traditionally boarding the bitch has always been part and parcel of stud work.

Not only that people in our breed are so keen to help the breed flourish that I have been put up in a foreign country by both stud owners for just the price of the stud fee.  Not only that but the last time they chose to refund the fee and have a puppy which then cost them to ship over!

Breeding and stud work surely is more about the breed, and covering ones costs is just for viability.

As we are a numerically small breed males don't get much stud work, a male that produced half a dozen litters in a lifetime is a 'popular sire' and if multiple offspring enter the gene pool in danger of being overused.

Okay, probably just a difference in the breeds and stud fee price then (our breed stud fee would vary from £350 - £550 tops).  It is a numerically huge breed!  And whilst sometimes people do leave their bitches with the stud for a couple of days, most don't.  I would hate to leave my precious girls with a stud dog owner and not be involved with their matings and welfare, but that is just me.

I wouldn't use a stud dog owner who I didn't trust to care for my bitch.

I have also had more than one stud dog stay with me for the duration, it really depends on what suits the owners, and of course the experience of both.  It may be the breeder ahs more experience with stud work than the dogs owner, though with inexperienced males working on their own turf is better.

>When I have goen abroad I have travelled on day 10 arranged to stay 10 days to two weeks.

Brainless, is that without the progesterone testing then?  (I'm guessing yes, or you couldn't say with such certainty?)

Thx

I have also had more than one stud dog stay with me for the duration, it really depends on what suits the owners, and of course the experience of both.

Me too. If you know the stud dog owner and trust each other, it is SO much easier all round to have the dog come to the bitch!

> is that without the progesterone testing then?

Yes, no progesterone testing, as airlines require generally two weeks advance booking for flying a dog, but have got away with 10 days.

If it was just over the channel in mainland Europe, and driving it would probably be cost efficient to progesterone test before going.

Though of course travel can throw things off, so I'd still prefer to go by the dogs, with plenty fo leeway either side.

> it is SO much easier all round to have the dog come to the bitch!

And of course it's the bitch owner who is more motivated to get a litter. so will work harder at it.

How did you get on? Blackhearts80