Hi folks, I have 6 months old Boxer puppy who pees and poos in her crate every night. I am not a novice person with the breed as I have been breeding and showing Boxers for over 20 years.  However, I have never had a puppy who is not cage  trained as old as this. I have tried giving her last meal at 4ish, and picked up her water bowl at 5 30pm, tried with just newspaper as bedding, which I know gives her the wrong message as we house train on newspapers, but after Peeing etc she turns the paper into confetti. Her vet bed is always wet and pooy on a morning. I tried without paper or bedding but just a very wet and dirty crate tray. I have had her vet checked for U.T.I. etc. and he says she is just a dirty girl. Any ideas please?

Firstly I would never leave a dog without water and have it available to mine at all times  even when they are being house trained.

How long is she in the crate at night time? Perhaps you could try putting her in there later in the evening and make sure she has been out for a last toilet visit - on lead so you can make sure she has gone - before she is left in her crate.

I would also set my alarm for halfway through the night so I could get up and take her out for another toilet visit - again on lead - and pre-empt her needing the toilet and give her the opportunity to not have to go in her crate. At the moment she has learnt that it is okay to toilet in her crate and you need to ensure that she can go outside during the night to go as she obviously still needs to do that.

If she doesn't go when you are outside in the middle of the night then set your alarm for half an hour later the next night etc - it may be that it's near to the time when you get up when she actually can't hold on any longer. When she does perform outside huge amounts of praise for her. I use a specific word for my pups when they perform and once they have associated that action with the word they then learn to go on command which is really useful.

It sounds as though she just isn't ready to go all night yet and by giving her the opportunity to go out in the night she will no longer need to go in her crate. Do you have to crate her at night?

Thanks for your reply,  I really think you must think I am stupid, I have of course done all of those things you have suggested! Yes I do have to crate her at night as she would just do it everywhere, I do have 2 other dogs who are also crated, How many dogs do you or have you had? I have already said I am an experienced person with dogs and usually Boxers are house trained very early. I do realise that some dogs are not ready as quickly as others, I was hoping to get a reply with less obvious suggestions

Boxers (as you know) are notorious for suffering with separation anxiety and I've found that this is the commonest cause of fouling their cage.

Each puppy is different so Id start with building up the time she can be left alone without stress and build up.
Or cure it overnight by bringing her cage into your bedroom...wait til she asks to go out, take her..calmly praise her and encourage her to relax and sleep.
If she really needs to relieve herself in the night she can ask..you can take her.

Personally I think no food after 4pm and no water after 5.30pm is far too long for a puppy to deal with. It probably wakes up due to hunger and thirst, it's still growing. I never removed water from my pups crate and not once did he pee or poo in it. Water was always available and he had (and still has) a very small supper to keep him ticking over until the morning, both my dogs do. It was a pain to start with but getting up in the night to let a puppy out wasn't an issue for me, rather that than a mess in the crate. I stopped using the crate at five months, simply because I don't like them, but it served its purpose and by six months he was sleeping through.

> I really think you must think I am stupid, I have of course done all of those things you have suggested!

Wow - not sure I will bother replying again after this. Until you posted this I didn't think you were stupid at all. Your original post didn't mention that you had tried various things and sadly I am not a mind reader. You did state that you have been a dog owner for a long time - snap :-) but just because one has owned dogs for a long time it doesn't necessarily mean that you would have tried my suggestions. If your dog is still toiletting in her crate then I would humbly suggest that she isn't yet going out enough times during the night at this moment in time - maybe take her out a good few times in the night so she can toilet outside rather than in her crate.

Stupidly I assumed that she doesn't have separation anxiety which could account for her going in her crate - my mistake I shouldn't assume but maybe you could enlighten me with that regard.

I currently own three dogs - all rescues and all needed to be house trained. My newest rescue spent his life on a chain as a failed farm dog and hadn't known any home comforts and had no contact with anthing outside the farm he lived on. The first night he was home with me I set my alarm for 2 hour slots through the night so I could take him out and let him relieve himself outside - never having lived in a house before he had to go where he was chained up and had no choice in the matter. He has never, ever had an accident indoors and after the first couple of nights he went all night without needing to toilet although he was still given the opportunity to go outside through use of my alarm clock - I set him up to succeed rather than to fail and succeed he did. He had water freely available all night and every night as do all my dogs.

I trust I have given you enough information to address your queries and hope someone else will risk replying to you as I think I have probably said enough now.

How is she during the day? Does she ask to go out or does she wait until she is let out?

I wonder if soiling the crate has become a habit.

Have you tried setting an alarm clock and letting her out during the night. If you can find out when she soils and set the alarm for before then it might help her break the habit.

Also give the crate a really good scrub with biological washing powder rinse and let it dry and air. Do you have another crate you can use for a bit to see if that helps.

Is the poo well formed or is it more like dire rear? How is the poo during the day. A friend of mine had trouble with a pup soiling over night she solved it by feeding last meal later. Worth a try?

My last puppy was a right trollip to toilet train, like yourself we can get pups clean very quickly but this one puppy was hard. We also crated like yourself but in a large playpen however my pup had learned to only pee in his bed and not outside...  he took literally weeks and weeks to get clean, my god I was pulling my hair out at one point so I got rid of his bed and got something different for him to sleep on (the old one he associated with the toilet).... but the answer to your problem really is the simplist solution... More trips to the garden, even at night if you have to.

  Everytime your pup does its business were you want treat them like they have done the best thing on the planet (I normally give a bit of fresh chicken) and so much praise the neighbours must think I'm nuts. If he did an accident I didn't punish but quietly removed him from the crate to outside and waited until he did it were I wanted him to.

It's really very frustrating if you have a pup that just won't toilet train, if you are doing this already then you are doing the right thing and just keep chipping away, we have all been there.

Good luck

She may have built up an association with her crate as a tolileting place.

One of mine did this as to avoid neighbour issues with a litter of pups I do not let them out of the puppy pen in the morning to toilet outdoors until 8am, so they do have to toilet in it.

When the litter left my pup continued to us the puppy pen at night, until the time she learnt to walk it across the kitchen by folding it, LOL

So I replaced it with a crate that had the door open in the day, I only crated at night. 

What did I find, she used the crate as a toilet if she needed to go when we were out.  In some ways that was actually convenient for a time, as made for easy clear up, but by 4 months I decided this habit had to go. 

I started leaving the crate shut and put the old girl in it at night instead, until pup was housetrained and just puppy proofed the kitchen.

A few months later I was able to swap her back into crate when she was fully housetrained, and she never used it as a toilet again.

I agree with Harley about setting a dog up to succeed.

However, I just have to point out that it is illegal to withhold water from your dog.  It has been law in this country for some time.

As to crating with no bedding or newspaper, you are open to prosecution under the Animal Welfare Act of 2006, and anyone could report you under this act.  Fact.

Yes I do have to crate her at night as she would just do it everywhere,

Have you tried? I've never in my life crated a large breed dog, only toydogs and that's mainly for their safety (not getting stepped on/sat on by bigger dogs). Maybe she simply acts like this because she hates being locked up? It's possible, as it would explain both the paper shredding and messing. And before you ask, I have 23 dogs right now. 12 are large and sleep in the house not crated and have done since they were pups. I find the quickest way to get a young pup clean at night is to have them sleep in the bedroom -with my latest it took just two or three nights before he learnt to wake us up to ask to be let out.

I'm sure if you describe her routine in detail and what you have allready tried people may be able to offer you more advice.
Things like: How long is she in the crate at night? What time is bed time? Do u get up in the night to let her toilet if so what times?, is her poo propperly formed? If not what are you feeding? What sort of things have you tried before?  Ect

At the moment I have 9 dogs, 7 of a medium breed and 2 larger. Only the medium dogs are crated at night.
From your posts I get the impression that you are fed up with this pup's behaviour . Do you think it could be picking up on this, causing stress and anxiety, which makes things worse?
I would try changing the whole night time routine, let pup stay in a different room, preferably your bedroom, this way you can tell when it wants to go to toilet and can let it out.
How good is the pup during the day?

A crate should be a place to feel warm and safe. Mine had his bed in there, blankets, safe toys and a bowl of water. Take any of that away and it just becomes an unwelcoming cage and a place to be feared.

As has been mentioned, I would completely change both the bedding and the routine.  I have a little dog staying with me who in her own home, is not housetrained and here, is not if she has access to upstairs or particular bedding (in her case, a particular furry mat and vetbed).  So she does not get access to those during the day, and I make sure she has done everything before we go to bed.  Miss any of that, and I'm clearing up.

I had the same problem with my collie when she was a pup - she decided one day to go in my room on a particular bed, and then the next time on my bed   and maintained that habit.  So I had to remove all access to both for months - the last time she did it I caught her and it was on that dog bed, but downstairs so she'd decided it was a suitable place to go wherever it was.

I was 'lucky' in that at the time she started going in my room, I started sleeping downstairs as my old boy had slipped a disc and couldn't go up them anymore, so I just shut the bedroom door for 8 months until he passed on and I moved back upstairs.  By that time, the habit had well and truly disappeared and she's not messed indoors since.

Hi Folks, My puppy is house trained during the day, open access to out side to come and go as she pleases (when weather permits). She is only in the crate when I have to go out or during the night. Her poos are firm, she is fed on Arden Grange, and the lifting of the water was only twice as an experiment. I have tried crating her with an older dog who was absolutely horrified at the mess in the crate with him. She has toys etc in with her, is toileted late at night an she does both, though if I were to take her back in when she went to the door she would be happy to come in and do it. She gets a treat and loads of praise when she does perform, I have changed her crate and bedding (daily), I do get up at 5am to let her out, some times she has held on to her poo, perhaps it is a habit? but she is such an outgoing pup, who gets the appropriate amount of exercise for a baby, I don't think it's a leaving her issue, Perhaps I am expecting too much of her at the moment, and of course will give her lots more time to be clean. Thanks for all of your suggestions particularly those of you who didn't pontificate and reply as if you were the " I know it all " people. I have looked at other peoples queries on other matters and found the same people reply with their " I know it all"  replies. Sorry if my first reply was a bit terse but being replied to as if I was an absolute fool got my back up. Thanks again to those of you who were really concerned to help

> Sorry if my first reply was a bit terse but being replied to as if I was an absolute fool got my back up. Thanks again to those of you who were really concerned to help

I take it you are relating this to my reply? I did actually think I was helping you by making suggestions that I thought would be helpful and sadly it is replies such as yours that make me realise I have better things to do with my time than waste it trying to help someone who is outrightly rude, doesn't give a full picture and puts down those who are genuinely trying to help without having all the relevant information given to them.

I have better things to do with my time than try and help someone who ridicules offers of help and replies in an offensive manner. Off to polish my crystal ball now and spend time with my dogs rather than trying to help someone else solve a problem with their dogs.

Manners cost nothing but are sadly lacking in some.

And for what it is worth - just my humble opinion which probably doesn't count for much - I personally believe that paper training dogs gives them the idea that they are allowed to toilet indoors rather than the only place to go is outdoors but hey what do I know about things.

My puppy is house trained during the day, open access to out side to come and go as she pleases (when weather permits).
though if I were to take her back in when she went to the door she would be happy to come in and do it.

Has she been raised with the ability to be able to come and go as she pleases? I've heard people saying that when pups have this option they do lurn to toilet outside but they don't lurn to hold it. So then when they can't go out and they suddenly need to go they can't wait.
If it is that Might be worth starting taking her out ever 2 hours during the night for a little while, then increasing it slowley.

What time is her bed time?

Just had a thought, it's nothing as simple as an outside noise or a neighbour that's coming and going and disturbing your pup? Little ears will pick up the quietest noise that we wouldn't hear!

Hi Harley,  I do apologize for my reply, on re reading yours I realise I was very rude, I can only put it down to a bad day. Please do not put off trying to help others by my rudeness, I did say I realised putting in paper in the crate was giving the wrong message to her. I will continue having patience with her after all my trying out different " remedies " I do love her dearly but once in a while I suppose you get exasperated with the on going mess, and try to find a solution

Thank you for your apology.

Has she been raised with the ability to be able to come and go as she pleases? I've heard people saying that when pups have this option they do lurn to toilet outside but they don't lurn to hold it.

Indeed. I have once, and only once, had the situation where I was able to have a door open during nice weather, and so the puppy I had then could go out to toilet whenever he needed to. I thought he was house trained as he never went indoors. When the weather turned colder I realised he wasn't house trained at all, as he started going indoors when he realised the back door was closed. I had to start training him from scratch just like if he had been an 8 week old puppy. By this time he must have been around 5 months old. The good news is that he ended up being possibly the best house trained dog I've ever had as he is excellent at asking to be let out -I've not come across many dogs myself that will actually ASK.

99% of the time when I have a pup to train I have the doors open. I still make sure I go out with pup every 1/2 hr and make sure they perform. I have never had a problem once I feel sure they have got the message and closed the door......and removed a few jumpers ;-)
Aileen
PS in response to the OP I do not use crates with pups but a pen, its OK for small breeds but you would need a huge cage to give any room to a larger puppy, it needs to be big enough for a bed, newspaper and water. With a few toys. Last trip out is about 11.30pm then up at 7am. I would never restrict water. UTI's can often be the result. My pups are usually only penned for a couple of weeks before being allowed out in the conservatory/dog room overnight with the big dogs. I then put newspaper by the back door and within a couple of weeks this is not needed.

Our Labrador used to ask to go out! We have always seemed to have ended up having late Autumn puppies so always had dark evenings and rain rain or cold turns outside whilst a puppy looked bemused at us shivering! We found the crate not ideal at night but as puppy walkers we had to use it. Only one puppy had a dirty crate for a few weeks we found it due to my hubbies different shifts! So quickly worked out 5.15am was poo time! We had two dogs hooked onto radio 5 left on throughout the night they settled with voices!

When we say 'change the bedding' we (or at least I am, I can't speak for others of course) mean changing the type, not just switching for fresh.  Little Jolly will only go on vetbed or duvets on the floor in my bedroom, so I block access to those - she has full access to duvets on the sofa and other beds on the floor in the lounge but never goes on them; but she did wee on the vetbed the other night when I'd left it down here.  So change the type, change the picture for her to try and break that habit.

And I'd be getting up in the night too, quite soon (i.e. after 2/3 hours) initially to try and get her out before she does it, then gradually increasing the time as she realises you will let her out.  I've had to do that recently as I have a foster here whose previous owners let him and his sister toilet in the porch (back garden not secure) - we're in week 6 of his stay now and he's just getting the hang of the idea that he doesn't just go in the kitchen as soon as he needs to, he can/should hold it, and I will let him out when he needs to go.  Part of achieving that was keeping the porch door shut - I am in the same type of house as his last owners so same layout, but my porch door is always shut, whereas his last one was always open.  Without that constant acces to his perceived toileting area, things moved quicker than I expected them to.