4 of my 5 puppies are diving into the puppy gruel I have been mixing them quite happily, but the smallest is barely licking it before wandering away. I've tried a bit of puppy meat mashed up, and placed some of each on her tongue. She does eat a minimal amount but then wanders off and dives on the mum when she gets in the bed later as if she is starving. Toileting is fine, she is playing but the others are getting much bigger and faster - at first she began all the playfights but now she seems to be the victim more often. They are 4.5 weeks old.

I have some puppy formula - just wondering whether to try mashing the puppy food with that, or is there anything better to try - or am I worrying too early?

Thanks

Was this puppy smaller at birth because I suppose it is possible she's just from the later mating and not quite as forward as the others.    Can she lap because for now I might continue with warmed goats milk, making sure she can lap.    It might be worth getting your vet to examine her to see whether there's any obvious reason for her not tucking in with the others. 

This is why I urge breeders not to send their puppies out into the world as soon as they think weaning onto solids is complete - it's vital to keep them back for a few extra weeks to be sure each individual puppy is established in their diet.

You might try mixing the puppy food with warmed goats milk instead of water ..... we did this early days into weaning.   It's still early days - we started weaning by the end of week 3 going into week 4, but mum was still providing most of their nourishment until into week 5 - 6.   By week 6 she was basically off the litter although still coming in to clean up and allow comfort suckling, standing up.   They usually wanted out pretty soon once they felt the sharp teeth.

Does this puppy have her teeth through?   Just another thought.

She has lapped a little water and a touch of food so she can do it - she has just pretty much rejected the puppy milk formula. Now she is lying in my arms and shivering with every snore. (the room is warm, she is warm). Getting quite concerned now but no answer from my vet. Blooming new year.

She has teeth - mum is going in to stand up and let them feed. I've got an appointment now so off to the vet in a bit

Blooming new year.

And why do they always get 'sick' when it's a holiday period/Sundays!!!    Keep at them because something isn't right and the sooner you find out what is going on, the better, obviously.   Vets in the UK should have an emergency number (often the normal number) and if closed, their service should pick up, take your details and contact the vet on duty who should get back to you pretty much immediately and advise, or set up a meeting time.

Shivering isn't good - it can be a sign of pain.   If your normal vet isn't responding (do they close over the lunch-hour?) I think I'd be looking for a vet who is open!!

Add -    GOOD!!    I hope all will be okay.

Puppy gruel sounds very boring - I wean all my pups onto beef mince first. Latest one was eating at 13 days. Try that. :)

I wean onto beef mince too.    Even reluctant pups seem to love it,  and it's easy to feed :-)

I've never used puppy gruel,  just soaked puppy food in hot water until it can be mashed.   Or mashed butchers tripe mix (the basic original tin)  and warmed it before feeding.  
Or mashed pilchard

At first it's just tastes to get them interested in solid food ;-)

Mainly the pups are fed on good quality puppy kibble,  soaked until very soft.   Then bits of the above,  or scrambled egg added for interest,  and to ensure they aren't fussy feeders.

Same here, I've only bred twice but both times my toy puppies turned their noses up at puppy porridge and insisted on tiny chunks of beef or chicken!

Nutriment have a weaning formula and then puppy food. Much better and more natural than mush. Mine LOVE tripe

We used a tiny amount of lean raw mince at the time we started them on warmed goats milk - but just once a day.   They loved it and it was tempting to give too much at a time when their digestive systems are still very immature.  Once onto porridge, we'd add more mince, sometimes scrambled egg, and sometimes cottage cheese, all to help promote the heavy bone my main breed should have (much as that's in the genes first!!)

What did the vet think was going on?

>This is why I urge breeders not to send their puppies out into the world as soon as they think weaning onto solids is complete - it's vital to keep them back for a few extra weeks to be sure each individual puppy is established in their diet.

100% agree.

Sorry - by puppy gruel I meant proper puppy kibble soaked down to a porridge - however I am now mixing that with some solid puppy meat and - although she doesn't eat as much as the others, she is definitely eating. Weight has finally gone up again. I think the Anti-b's from the vet did something too, as she had a bit of a temp.

Now my problem is how to make a puppy enclosure the mum can get into and that particular puppy can't get out of- being lighter, she can already climb over the sides, while the others just stand there and shout.

Guess which puppy we are planning on keeping  yep, the escapologist.

>Guess which puppy we are planning on keeping  yep, the escapologist.

Just a normal dog loon then?  :-)

Guess which puppy we are planning on keeping  yep, the escapologist.

Ditto. We have a pair of Houdini apprentices, the bitch will live with me and the dog will be co-owned so just a part timer here. That will be 4 out of 6 who are blackbelt escapologists. Did I mention I've gone completely grey?

I'm with Goldmali....gruel (or soaked kibble!) Yuck! Mine wouldn't touch it with a barge pole and I want to encourage weaning so
I start on minced beef.

She is definitely the liveliest, cheekiest and most destructive of the litter, always jumping on her siblings and starting the playfights - however definitely the smallest too. She is now eating and putting on weight but much slower and smaller than the others. I'm glad she is the one we are keeping as I want to keep a closer eye on her.

I have a significantly smaller female in my litter too, she was never a robust feeder and now that they're weaning she still eats less than the others but she's definitely top dog!

Just making a general observation re puppies that are  'poor dooers', if they are retained, one must really consider the wisdom of using them in a breeding program.

Dogs selected fro breeding among other things should be as robust as possible as well as having all the other positive traits one selects for.

'Good dooers' are what you want to breed on from.  You also want to keep daughters from bitches that are good mothers and studs from males who have a good libido and attitude to stud work.

The above is basic animal husbandry, and are rules we ignore at our peril, due to the sentiment that often surrounds companion animals.

Ahhh Barbara,   you wrote it before I could.

And put it better too :-)

'Good dooers' are what you want to breed on from.  You also want to keep daughters from bitches that are good mothers and studs from males who have a good libido and attitude to stud work.

But you assume I am keeping her to breed from, when in fact we are just keeping her as a pet. The bitch has been an amazing and attentive first time mum as well.

>But you assume I am keeping her to breed from, when in fact we are just keeping her as a pet. The bitch has been an amazing and attentive first time mum as well.

No I didn't assume that, :) but many people reading the thread might, so I made a general comment so that anyone keeping the little one that struggled will not think breeding from it is the best idea.

Any Google search picks up champdogs posts when someone is looking for information.

Good point, fair enough :)

I have to say, I am impressed with those of you who breed as a full time occupation. I've definitely given my bitch and the litter all of my attention, worried over every step and learnt a lot both in advance and through experience. I couldn't do this as a regular thing though - and I still have the parting with my pups to go, which is already breaking my heart - even though I am also keen to be able to give just our pup my full attention.

>I am impressed with those of you who breed as a full time occupation

I don't think anyone here does, litters are spaced out as they are so physically and mentally draining and it doesn't end with the homing of the pups, the owner back up is quite intensive for the first weeks and months and on-going at a more background level for the lifetime of the puppies.;)

>I am impressed with those of you who breed as a full time occupation

>I don't think anyone here does,

You beat me to it Barbara.

Breeding is an important by-product of the wider interest in ones breed and some kind of dog hobby/work, not the main aim.

Just making a general observation re puppies that are  'poor dooers', if they are retained, one must really consider the wisdom of using them in a breeding program.

Two years ago I had a pup that was hard to wean. Her littermates were fine. This was my dream pup, the looks I had aimed for for years. My pick of litter. But she continued to be a poor eater as she grew -and hence did not grow properly. Was very skinny. Her littermates ate and grew well, in fact one got made up to Champion at the age of just over one, abroad. A friend of mine with less dogs offered to look after my pup for a while to see if she could get her eating, as she had lots of spare time. I agreed. Pup was  meant to be away for about  a month, and indeed she did start eating at my friend's. Then I got kennel cough here and my pup could not come back for many weeks. When she came back she had gained weight and grown and looked wonderful. Back here again she promptly stopped eating again. I gave up and handed her back to my friend and let her keep her, and she was spayed straight away. She's a much loved pet now. Whatever the reason for her not eating here, it was from day one, and not something I'd want to risk to to pass on to pups. I do NOT rehome my dogs that don't make the grade, mine stay for life, but in this instance it was for the sake of the dog. Broke my heart it did.

Today I have started introducing solids to the half siblings of the previous pup -same mum. All were eating within seconds. 22 days old. My Tiny Tim (very small for age), fostered by this bitch after being rejected by his own mother, aged just 15 days, also ate straight away.

Breeding is an important by-product of the wider interest in ones breed and some kind of dog hobby/work, not the main aim.

Perfect way of putting it.

Last year I went to 28 shows, and too many training class sessions to count. I trained my dogs at home and out and about on my own. I helped a bit with breed rescue in various ways. I had people visit me to learn about the breed. I took many phonecalls from people wanting to ask questions about the breed. I spent a full day at Discover Dogs at Crufts, as always, telling people about my main breed. I replied to many, many e-mails from my puppy buyers and again from people asking questions about the breed. Grieved with 3 puppy buyers who lost their dogs last year. I wrote breed notes for my main breed pretty much every week for OD. And I bred one litter, which was the first for four years of that breed of mine. Then I had two litters of the second breed born at the very end of the year -and it's likely to be a very long time before I have another of that breed. Normally one litter a year would be the most I'd have. Breeding is perhaps 10 % of the involvement in dogs for me -but almost my entire life and most of every day is taken up by dogs. And I dare say my dog involvement is very, very similar to the majority of breeders here on CD.

I still have the parting with my pups to go, which is already breaking my heart - even though I am also keen to be able to give just our pup my full attention.

This is my first litter, planned for the last 4 years (18 months before my bitch was even born). I helped my bitch with the first two puppies, grieved for the two who were stillborn, and watched her slowly take charge of the other two as they came into the world. I have spent almost every waking and sleeping minute with them in the 9 weeks and 3 days since they were born, and I'm still on the sofa downstairs.

Yesterday two puppies went to their new homes. They are very lucky puppies who have gone to fabulous families who already each have a dog of the same breed, and these siblings will see each other regularly throughout their lives because the families are great friends. I know all this, and I still cried most of last night. I miss them terribly. Today their remaining siblings are quieter, there's none of the shrieking and scrapping at the crack of dawn. I never thought I'd miss that bit, but I do. At least one of the two remaining puppies will stay here with me, and hopefully 2.5-3 years from now she will be mated to my lovely stud dog--not because he happens to live here, but because the consolidation of the lines behind him and this little girl may produce some super puppies. So by then, 7 years of planning will have gone into trying to achieve a dream, and behind that the 7 years I have been in this breed so far.

For all the heartache of seeing them go this has been one of the best times of my life, and I would not have missed it for the world.

Yup, breeding should be a labour of Love, part of a long term plan.

For me, my 'payment' for all the heartache/heartbreak/emotion/cost/time ....... was having one or two super prospects for the next generation.   That, especially if it worked out, which it didn't always, was why I did the limited breeding we did.   I have to say I loved rearing puppies but it was still a time of huge anxiety.   As for selling them - when I knew the people it was 'okay' although watching my precious bundles vanishing off down the road in the back of a car, without a backward look, was something I could well have done without.

I don't think I could do it all again tho. much as losing the last of my bloodline was awful.   Before when we lost one, there was always the next generation......