I have been looking at different breeds after losing my rott boy and the Tibetan Mastiff is a stunning animal.  Does anyone have any experience of them?  I have never met one in the flesh and not aware of any living in my locality.  I have bought a couple of books about them and the consensus seems to be similar in character to a driven rottie but less trainable!  I am going to a big show in a few weeks so may see some there but just looking for some people's experiences of them just out of interest.

I see you live in Scotland big group show Working and pastoral breeds of Scotland is one the 1st November at t he royal highland Showground Tibetan Mastiffs have been shown there before, sorry it's at the highland Showground Edinburgh same place as S.K.C. if you are interested or is this the show you are talking about

I'm happy to be corrected but I thought that the rottie was a cattle herder/drover while the TM was developed as a flock guardian- the first trainable and biddable with the right kind of leadership and handling, the second a wholly independent thinker.

I've only ever met one TM and he seemed a formidable character and one that needed a wide berth, somewhat different from rotties I have worked with....but perhaps the TM was unusual. Have you met any?

Oh, sorry just read your post again and see you have not met any. Perhaps the show versions have a softer temperament.

I believe Celli on here used to own a TM.

One of the admins Jeff has them and has imported a few too. He has some lovely dogs :-)

That's the show I'm going to in a few weeks as I had seen that Tibetan mastiffs have been shown there and was hoping to see a few in the flesh.

That's true about the purpose and traits of the dogs, I meant that they could be a handful if not properly directed but they are far less couthy with the human family than rotts.

Hopefully celli will be on here at some point - am I right in thinking she lives in fife?

I had a TM , but only for two years, he came to me as an adult, but sadly died at just 8 years from Cancer.
In my ( limited) opinion, I'm not seeing the similarity between them and Rottie's, in a nut shell, I would describe a TM as a cat in a dog suit .
They are independent thinkers, they are trainable, but finding a reliable motivator is difficult, they may well carry out a request ( and believe me, it is a request, and they may get back to you a week later after due consideration ) three times in a row, and then decide never to repeat it again.
A sense of humour, endless patience, and flexibility tempered with firmness, but never ever harshness, are essential to get on with this breed.
They are incredibly affectionate to their family but without being fawning, to the rest of the world, they tend to ignore anyone not in their circle, and whilst they shouldn't be shy, neither do they appreciate being manhandled by strangers, Ben used to take a neat step backwards if anyone tried to pet him without a proper introduction, but he was never aggressive.
For me their one big downside was not being reliable off lead, it's been said of them that TM's love being with their owners, it just that if they are in the same county, they class that as being with their owner.
They are notorious for bogging off, they aren't running away, they just want to know what's over that hill five miles away, and expect you to want to know too, so, let's go !.
As a guard, I found Ben second to none, he was a one dog neighbourhood watch, and would let me know if someone was thinking they may step out of their door, but he was never an excessive barker as long as I acknowledged his concern, then he was quite happy that I'd been alerted to the danger and his job was done.
Strangers who came in the house were given a cordial welcome after a ground shaking woof, Ben would stand between me and anyone I was speaking to, if we moved, he would move, and position himself between us again, that always made me smile.
My main experience of dogs is with SBT's and you couldn't get a more different breed than a TM, I wouldn't have another, much as I loved and miss Ben, the whole, having to keep him on a leash scenario, would put me off having another.
But if constant leash walks don't bother you, they may be the breed for you, that was the only downside that I found.
I should add, they also shed their coats like you wouldn't believe, and in the summer, hardly have any coat at all, certainly not the magnificent raiment of the winter, they also suffer from the heat, in the summer, I was up and out with Ben at around 6am, it just got too hot for him to walk much past 8am.

Yes, I do live in Fife :)

The ones I have met have been very unflappable steady and aloof.

Interesting to hear from Celli, as someone who has lived with one. I suppose the flock guardian element makes me think that they could be hard to live with unless you have plenty of space, but if Jeff has owned a few it would be interesting to hear more from someone who knows.

Certainly agree with the aloof bit, but the one and only I have met was more than that, he gave off a powerful keep your distance vibe.

Interesting -you could just have described a Malinois exactly, with just one exception: Malis are great off the lead.

I've sent him a PM on FB to ask him to have a look at this thread

Hi,
As others have mentioned I have a few TMs.
I think most of the advice that has been posted is excellent. I would make a couple of small, but important, distinctions.
TMs are not a flock guardian in the traditional sense - unlike for example a Maremma - they would not stay with the flock. This does lead them to have more of a tendency for looking after those at home, they consider the family and the other dogs as their responsibility and will, if not properly directed, guard them with a bit too much vigour.
They should be stand offish with strangers BUT not aggressive or grumpy - this breed should have an inherent confidence and if they don't then there is something wrong. Barking, lunging, growling at people or other dogs is wrong for the breed. If you have a rescue then, of course, I appreciate you have to adapt but if you are thinking of a pup, with you from 8 weeks of age, any of the above it not acceptable or correct.
I have posted an article that was written a few year ago below - please have a read and let me know if you have any questions. I won't be at the show you are going to but there should be at least 6 or 7 TMs there - hopefully.
Kind regards,
Jeff.

DOGS TODAY OCTOBER 2007.

When I was asked to write this article my immediate thoughts were unprintable-where on earth should I begin? As this piece is entitled "Living with a Tibetan Mastiff" I can only draw from my own experience.
Tibetan Mastiff owners for the most part seem to reflect the breed or is that the other way around? Patience is a definite requirement with many people waiting years for their first TM. This is partly due to the small number in the UK and partly due to the fact that females only come into heat once a year. This is usually in late autumn/early winter and often results in an interruption to Christmas festivities for the delivery of puppies!
They come in a variety of colours: rich black, with or without Tan; slate grey, with or without tan or rich golden. Whilst dogs are generally larger and have more coat than bitches both have an impressive coat with a thick woolly undercoat. Indeed many a TM will sit outside in what to us is unbearable cold with snow covering them where they lie. The fact that this snow does not melt gives you a good indication of just how efficient this coat is. Remarkably this amazing coat does not require hours of attention, a thorough brush once a week will suffice - until the dreaded spring moult. Up to now you have amazed disbelieving friends and other dog walkers with the revelation that you only attend to your dogs coat once a week - this is all about to change! For a period which can range from two weeks to two months you have a different dog. Every time you walk past him he leaves hair on your clothes, you know where he has been sleeping thanks to the circle of hair left behind. Your house, your garden, the field where you walk all show signs that a hairy beast has passed this way. If you prepare yourself for an invasion of hairy tumbleweed you will not be disappointed! At the end of all this your TM looks different to say the least. Gone is the impressive coat, in males crowned by a shaggy mane. No longer do you constantly hear passing strangers remark to each other on your dogs crowning glory - fear not it will return and with remarkable speed.
The TM is a generally healthy animal and many adults reach their teen years, which for a large breed is no mean feat.

With any large dog temperament, in my opinion, is paramount. The standard uses terms such as noble, dignified, loyal, calm, aloof and protective and my personal favourite independently minded! Add to these stubborn, intense, delightful, lazy, sensitive, pig headed, demanding, rewarding and with the ability to constantly surprise you and you should by now have realised that the TM is not a dog whose life revolves around you-quite the reverse. The standard also uses the word agile, which in my experience is something of an understatement. Whilst generally a laid back breed they have, when called for, explosive speed (albeit over a short distance) and will clear a six foot fence from a standing start should the mood take them. They can dig a large hole quicker than you can fill it in and never seem to tire of that particular game. After a while they will lull you into thinking they are just making a dirt scrape to lie in-until your back is turned when full scale excavation can begin again - did I forget "challenging"!
They do not as a rule take to obedience like a normal dog, although there are some notable exceptions. It seems to be more a case of the two of you coming to an understanding of what is required and as long as your TM believes this will not place either of you at risk all will be well. I was once told that trying to train a TM like a Border Collie would be like trying to knit jelly and ice cream!  As a result of this off lead exercise can be tricky to say the least and many TM owners can tell you stories of watching a loosely curled, well feathered tail disappear in to the distance!

After having other breeds the realisation that I was not the centre of my TMs' world took a while to sink in. The inherent confidence these dogs can have is still a wonder to me and this was the biggest hurdle I had to overcome in order for our relationship to flourish, until that point it caused me nothing but headaches. The Tibetan Mastiff is known as "The legendary guardian of the Himalayas " with good reason and in bygone times this guardian instinct was key to their survival. They retain that instinct to this day and as soon as I came to understand this everything else fell into place. If he is sleeping the TM will not jump to his feet and follow you should you decide to go and make a cup of tea if however you do not return, in what he thinks is due course, he will come and find you. When puppies come to a show for the first time they are watched over by the adults who will take it in turns to sit and scan the area around them. He will be perfectly happy to sit alone in the garden whilst the house is full of people yet should someone leave or arrive he will take note although you may not realise it.
By now you may be thinking "this doesn't really sound like much of a family pet" and although I can see your point how wrong you would be! Mine accompanies me on business trips, revels in the attention received at hotels and has been to countless Country Fairs and Horse Shows and all these things have been accepted in the same laid back manner Affectionate and easy going they will adapt to your lifestyle, as long as they are satisfied you are not doing anything foolish, and a breed more natural with SENSIBLE children I have never seen - told you they had the ability to surprise you! Personally speaking my TMs have always been relaxed and confident around other dogs, male or female, although like any dog they do not appreciate a direct challenge. If this does occur I have frequently been amazed at how tolerant they can be and generally this allows time to for owners to diffuse the situation. It is unusual for a TM to instigate aggressive behaviour - all part of their inherent confidence.

So whilst not everyone is suited to a Tibetan Mastiff a word of warning for those of you who think you may be. They are like chocolate biscuits - one is never enough! 

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I suppose the flock guardian element makes me think that they could be hard to live with unless you have plenty of space

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I think a lot of people would find them difficult, they certainly aren't easy, but we tend to adapt our lifestyle to suit our dogs, rather than expecting a dog to fit in with us, so I would guess stuff that would be unacceptable to some folks, just didn't arise.
Another thing that popped into my head about Ben was how some friends found him boring, one even asked if he actually ever did anything.
He was anything but boring, but he reserved his character and sense of humour for me, I would quite often find him flat on his back with a ridiculously goofy expression on his face, just waiting for me to pass him and laugh, he would then pop up onto his feet and run around like a loon with the Staffies in hot pursuit, daft dug.
He also used to enjoy being gently dragged along on his back by his front legs, he would lie on his back and waggle his front legs in a meaningful manner until someone obliged lol.

Jeff that's a wonderful description and has me grinning ear to ear, especially the bit about lying in the snow, I have some great photos of Ben happily curled up in thick snow, and your right, snow never melted on his coat.

Wow, I didn't expect so much useful input given that I have never even met one in my life and so many people have personal experience of them.

Celli, thanks for your insight, much appreciated.  I had a feeling you lived somewhere near me.  Great description of TM as a dog in a cat suit!  I live semi-rural and moved out here as my rott boy wasn't really suited to city living so we moved to a place with a large garden, 7' fences and sheep and cows in the fields rather than lots of off lead dogs and traffic.  I would say we definitely have the environment to suit a TM and not too many neighbours if there is barking every time a mouse wanders through the garden at night.  I had a rott until a few weeks ago and still have an old lady staff so not looking to get another dog until my old lady has passed but I have been used to superglue dogs that want to come to the toilet and follow me like a shadow - the levels of independence you and Jeff have described would take some getting used to.

Suejaw, thanks for PM'ing Jeff - much appreciated.

Jeff, what a fantastic piece for dogs today.  Interesting that you mention taking on an older dog.  Out of curiosity I had a look at some ads where people were selling older dogs and the overwhelming themes ranged from - suited as a kennel dog/needs to live on a farm/not suited to living in family home.  That was quite concerning but from what I have read here and elsewhere, sounds like the work hadn't been put in as a pup and the independent streak got out of control with the dog ruling the roost.  That is an excellent and informative piece you had published Jeff and makes me even more determined to seek some out and see what they are like in the flesh.  One of the books I read said that the dogs in the show ring are not true reflections of the personality of the breed (i.e. are significantly watered down) as a 'true' TM would not perform in the ring or be comfortable with a stranger going over it.

Definitely food for thought there as I plan for our next addition in the coming years.  Thanks for everyone's input and I'd be delighted to hear more.

You're welcome.
One thing I would say about the whole "dogs in the ring" experience is the inherent confidence should come to the fore - they might not appreciate the attention but should trust you enough to tolerate it. Of course some are more show offs than others! :-)
I have only had this breed for 12 years but please don't let someone disguise or dress up bad temperament for anything other than that. These things do occur when insufficient research is done before a mating or once pups are born - as it does in all breeds.
As an example males often will happily live together but due to their primitive nature they can get funny at the end of Autumn even when you don't have a female about!  
They are a challenging breed but I would not be without at least one.

Jeff, a really helpful and illuminating post, many thanks. It really does pay to learn from those that know a breed well. I frequently advise clients to ask for the breeder's input on all kinds of problems, only if a 'good' breeder of course, but the breed specialist is such a valuable resource...that's why I hang around here.

I was also enchanted by Celli's description of some of Ben's goofy behaviour and was reminded of Coppinger's description of how working maremma's adopt weird, goofy behaviour as a way to confuse and distract prowling wolves, more so than displays of protective aggression.