I've been looking at hip/elbow scores on the KC Health Tests, I know the median is 18 (hips) yet people are breeding from Dams with scores well into the 20s
Would you buy from a litter with 1-3 (dam) & 0-0 (sire) for elbows?

My bitch scored 3-6 hips & 1-3 elbows. We started showing last yr & have won 2 BoB & qualified for Crufts 2015.
I have had people asking if I will be breeding & would like to have a litter, keeping one for myself to continue showing.

I have looked back throughout her 5 Gen, There are quite a few untested on her Dams side & only hips/eyes on her Sires side. So looks like she is the first to be elbow scored.
She is a lovely natured happy dog, its that one elbow that makes me question breeding her. She shows no sign of a problem & I was very shocked ( & upset!) when the scores came back.

If I was to breed I would look for the lowest scored Hips I could find with 0-0 elbows.

Thank you for your time.

With Elbows the overall score is the higher side, so in this example 3. 

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/breeding-for-health/complex-inherited-disorders/bvakc-health-schemes/bvakc-elbow-dysplasia-scheme/

"Advice to breeders is to use only those dogs with grades of 0, wherever possible." 

So no I would not breed from your bitch.

Bear in mind that most of a dogs weight is carried on it's front, which is why in heavier breeds front leg amputees do not do as well as those loosing a hind limb.

I don't breed, but from another perspective, in any of my breeds I wouldn't buy a pup from a dam with an elbow score of 3, especially with no other relatives scored, even if the sire was 0. Shame for you :(

She shows no sign of a problem & I was very shocked ( & upset!) when the scores came back.

I certainly wouldn't buy a pup from a parent with an elbow score of 3, as that is the worst possible score and clearly elbow dysplasia. The thing to bear in mind is, bad hips or bad elbows can appear just fine and give no problems until later in life. I had a dog with severe HD (I'd guess same breed) -his score was 48/48 =96 and yet he did not show a single symptom until he was 6. But then he started to develop problems all of a sudden. Before then you'd never have guessed his hips were bad at all. It's dreadfully sad and I can certainly understand how you must feel but the point of scoring is to act on it and not breed from high scores -especially in a common breed where the genepool isn't small.

This is the meaning of the grades:

BVA/Kennel Club elbow dysplasia grading scheme

The elbow dysplasia (ED) grading scheme is based on that of the International Elbow Working Group, IEWG, as follows:

*  Grade 0 = a radiographically normal elbow.

*  Grade 1 = there is no visible primary lesion but secondary new bone (osteoarthritis) up to 2mm in depth is present at any site around the elbow joint.

*  Grade 2 = (a) a primary lesion is visible (eg. medial coronoid disease or ununited anconeal process) without visible osteoarthritis OR (b) no primary lesion is visible but osteoarthritis of more than 2mm and up to 5mm in depth is present at any site around the elbow joint.

*  Grade 3 = (a) both a primary lesion and any amount of osteoarthritis are visible OR  (b) no primary lesion is visible but osteoarthritis over 5mm in depth is present at any site around the elbow joint.

The overall grade is that of the worse of the two elbows.

Breeding advice

It is strongly recommended that breeders wishing to reduce the risk of elbow dysplasia should select their breeding stock (both dogs and bitches) only from animals with an overall grade of 0.

Dogs with elbow grades of 2 or 3 have marked osteoarthritis likely to be due to ED, with or without a visible primary lesion. There is a significant chance of ED being passed on to the offspring.

Dogs with elbow grades of 1 show mild or early osteoarthritis which is also likely to be due to ED. They should only be used for breeding with caution, taking into consideration the ED grades of as many relatives as possible, as well as the results of other health tests and characteristics.

It is not yet a requirement in our breed to elbow score so  cannot comment however hip scoring is. My 13 year old has 5/5 hip score which is considered very good and well below the average. For the last 2 years her back legs have given up and my vet has said it bears no relation to the fact she has a good hip score??
As I have heard some say if you have a bitch with a high score use a dog with a low score rather than throw the baby out with the bath water. Does the same not apply with elbow scores then?
We are a breed with limited stud dogs available and it is getting harder so where do we go?

Basically unless you absolutely have no alternative, having had her elbows scored and come up with a 3, I'd not take a litter from her, frustrating as it undoubtedly is.  In the Basset we have a test for the condition that predisposes the hound to glaucoma - Goniodysgenesis.  If a dog fails, it goes on his paperwork (and any progeny produced after the test result) which basically means that dog is lost to the breed, from a breeding point of view.   Fine, who needs glaucoma BUT there is nothing to suggest that a failed dog WILL develop glaucoma, it's just a possibility = definitely throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

On the other hand, after the event, I discovered the dog I'd used developed epilepsy and was put down at only 8.  And further, his mother went the same way.   Looking then at the pedigree, there had been some 'odd' losses through the hounds on his dam's side.  Despite the only connection between mine and him was via his sire's side (and I certainly had no epilepsy in my line), I made the decision to refuse any stud enquiries on the male we'd kept from the litter, and had his sister spayed before being bred from.   In other words, I ended my line.   Actually neither of the two I'd kept developed epilepsy (we did lose both to different cancers, at 12+) and I didn't hear from the owners of any of the puppies I'd sold - and I would have!

>Does the same not apply with elbow scores then?

No, it appears that ED is much more highly heritable, and dogs with a 2 or 3 score definitely have ED, a 1 has arthritic changes (so jury can be o0tu for cause) and of course 0 dogs have no sign of ED.

With hips you could use a higher, but 'functionally' normal range, (anything below total 20 say)  bitch with low scoring dog as you say.

>In the Basset we have a test for the condition that predisposes the hound to glaucoma - Goniodysgenesis.

We have open Angle, (so no clinical predisposition) Glaucoma in my breed an the gene causing it has just been identified, we are awaiting public testing as we only have results for dogs that took part in the study which shows the 'carrier' rate as very high, over 25% based on over 600 worldwide samples.

It has been found to be autosomal recessive, and like with your example affected dogs have two copies of the gene, but which of them will go onto have symptoms is unknown, and the reason we couldn't pin down mode of inheritance in the past, and we fortunately had few dogs with full blown symptoms.

The risk of producing affected is not worth the risk with such a painful condition that invariably leads to the loss of the eyes themselves after expensive treatment.

So quite correctly the Affected by Gonodysgenesiss dogs should not be used as they will only be able to produce Affected or Carrier offspring.  Unless you have a DNA test they cannot be safely used.  If there is a DNBA test they could be used with GENETICALLY clear, but all the offspring would be carriers, but it would preserve their genes.

As I have heard some say if you have a bitch with a high score use a dog with a low score rather than throw the baby out with the bath water. Does the same not apply with elbow scores then?

That was the excuse of the breeder of my dog. Never mind that I used a bitch with a high score, the sire is "a known hip improver". So my dog ended up with a score of 96 -way way higher than both parents. And she did this mating TWICE, and the btich actually had a total of 4 litters. (Easy to check now when we have everything online.) Only 9 pups were hip scored but out of those, ONE had the same score as the dad, all the others above his. 7 above the breed medium.

I think I am in the same breed as you! Disappointing as you must be, I'd have to say - no, I wouldn't breed from that elbow score, and as an additional thought - we wouldn't accept a bitch with that score to our dogs (all 0-0)

We have been breeding for 30+ years, when puppies leave here, the last thing we say is that we can guarantee nothing - except that we have done our utmost to produce healthy puppies. I couldn't say that hand on heart in your situation.
Just my opinion, I'm sure others may differ.

In other news, not that I agree with this but haven't got time to write all the reasons currently, but the kc are actually r2commending that any dog scoring above a 0 shpuld be removed from the breeding programme

Yes they are, it is what I said further up, and in a recentish previous thread, but the actual BVA advice e still says 1's with caution.