Mo had her puppies 8 weeks ago and all have gone to their new homes apart from the boy I'm keeping. He will be vaccinated next week but Mo is also due her booster. She is still feeding him on and off so my question is when would be the best time to get her vaccinated? I obviously don't want him getting double doses of anything.

If she has had puppy vaccinations and a booster a year later she will not need a booster for several years.
There has been another thread recently on vaccinations and there are a lot of useful links to duration of immunity on there.
If you want to check her immunity levels then you could get a Vaccicheck test done at a vets, costs about £25 -£30 and you get the result in 20 minutes.
If you get a positive result them your dog has immunity and does not require further vaccination, so therefore you can avoid giving one unnecessarily.
Over vaccinating has been linked to severe autoimmune disease in recent studies.   

>Over vaccinating has been linked to severe autoimmune disease in recent studies.

I'd be interested to read the actual figures. Does anybody actually know the percentage of the vaccinated population that develop problems provably linked to vaccination?

Over vaccinating has been linked to severe autoimmune disease in recent studies.

I've owned 47 dogs in my lifetime. 46 of them have been vaccinated every year, all their lives. Only one had problems with being vaccinated so we stopped after 2 years. I've never owned a dog with auto immune disease.

I too have always vaccinated from cradle to grave. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't inadvertently overloading the pup by doing both him and his Mother at the same time as he still takes the odd drink off her given a chance (although she has started to growl at him now when he tries so doubt it will be for much longer). Have checked it's OK with the vet and both are going on Wednesday.

The sceince does show that all this boostering is unnecessary, and in some cases harmful, and that titre testing would be much more beneficial.

I went from annual to three year bolstering and cine 2007 have only done puppy vaccinations and a booster at a year.

My 14 3/4 year old last had a booster in April 2003 (age 3 1/2), Rabies for Pet Passport in 2003 and 2005.

She had litters in Sept 2003, July 2005, and December 2006.

I do as Brainless, puppy vax, booster at 1yr and that's all.

In reply to Jeangenie  here is a link that gives information about studies regarding adverse effects of over vaccination.

Unfortunately most adverse reactions go unreported. As the effects can take quite a lengthy period after the actual vaccination to show up.

http://www.petwelfarealliance.org/uploads/3/0/3/6/3036695/purdue_vaccination_studies.pdf

Another link that gives details of scientific studies that have shown links to various diseases and vaccination.

http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/ScientificData.html

>Unfortunately most adverse reactions go unreported. As the effects can take quite a lengthy period after the actual vaccination to show up.

But then there's no clear proof that the condition is due to the vaccination, just assumption and supposition.

Me too have, until the new thinking that suggests 3-yearly boosters, apart from the one for Leptospirosis (and rabies where it's required to be done annually by law) always annually boostered up to around age 7, with no problems.  After age 7 I stopped.   However, I'm all for not continually pushing these boosters in so the 3-yearly routine suits me fine.   I had to ask my vet to do this mind you - it wasn't volunteered.   Also I was quoted over £60 to do titre testing and told it wasn't that accurate either .... ?    I don't go to these vets any more.

As for your b itch still allowing nursing at that age, get her off the puppies/him.   It's unlikely she's producing much by now in any case, but she'll go back to a trim figure far faster if she's not allowed to be doing this for this length of time.   He doesn't need mum for nourishment by 8 weeks of age.   I suggest this is really just comfort suckling in any case.   At 8 weeks, he needs to start to be a little adult!!

Mo has decided he's not allowed to feed anymore anyway. I've always left it up to the bitch to decide when to stop feeding and most of my pups have gone off to their new homes with a final suckle.

But then there's no clear proof that the condition is due to the vaccination, just assumption and supposition. .

Well if you read the links it has the references the scientific studies at the end, so not just assumption or supposition.
There are cases every week, of dog having severe reactions, one thread on here recently, but the canine health forums are full of them.

>There are cases every week, of dog having severe reactions

And yet at work we've had one bad reaction in 8 years of many vaccinations every week.

Have heard of numerous reactions amongst owners I know and two particular vaccine brans, one most often, (Duramune and Vanguard), so much so that I advise puppy owners to avoid these two.

The dog with the most serious reaction would have died if he'd been put straight in the car at vets, and then driven homes.  As it was they had parked away from vets as car park had ben full and when they got to the car he had collapsed, and they rushed him back in.  this reaction was reported and interestingly the drug rep was there at the time and his owners were advised to never vaccinate again.

He was I believe he was in for his second booster at two, different brand to previously.

He lived health problem free to 13 years, never being boostered again.

Also you can't see long term damage to the immune system, some dogs become ill weeks, months or years later, which is why it goes unreported.
But I have personal experience of quite a number of people who have lost dogs to vaccination damage.

One boy had just got his Junior Warrant and had a very promising show career ahead of him, he had had a reaction when he had his second lot of puppy shots, but the vet convinced the owner it was not related to the vaccination.
He was given a booster a year later, and then had a severe reaction and despite the owners and vets best efforts he died.
The vet still maintained that it was unrelated to the booster and refused to report it.  But the dog was in the peak of health and full of vigour prior to receiving the booster.

>  He doesn't need mum for nourishment by 8 weeks of age.   I suggest this is really just comfort suckling in any case.   At 8 weeks, he needs to start to be a little adult!!

Blimey!  I have a breed that is still happily feeding from mum at 8 weeks.  And, I have to be fair, is still likely to give a comfort suckle at 12 weeks when they leave home.  And they don't need to be a little adult at 8 weeks because they reach adult stage around 6 months anyway.

>Also you can't see long term damage to the immune system, some dogs become ill weeks, months or years later, which is why it goes unreported.

Where is the evidence that the damage wasn't done when they sniffed at something in the street or swallowed something in the park?

Jeangenie, When a puppy has never been in the street or the park, as in the case of my 8 week old JRT who very happily allowed the vet to vaccinate him and several hours later was dead from continually fitting. I would consider this evidence enough!

My 10 week old BC, again very happy and healthy until given first of puppy vaccs. Next day, bloody diarrhoea, lost his coat over the next few weeks until he was virtually bald,  and had very bad collitis for the whole of his life. The vet never gave the second of the puppy vaccs.

My 12 week old examined by vet before being vaccinated, told me he could not find his heart sounds but deemed to be healthy enough to vaccinate despite me saying that the puppy was refusing food,  lay down when we got home and slept for most of the following 5 weeks and had to be syring fed for most of that time. Found to have a serious congenital condition and should never have been vaccinated. His heart was on the right side of his chest.

All the above happened over 10 years ago and never since have I vaccinated another of my dogs, I raw feed and use nosodes. I bet, despite the vet in all those incidents knowing what caused my puppies problems, did not report them as being adverse reactions.

I also don't understand that those people who wish to vaccinate their puppies still do so at 8 and 10 weeks when they still have mum's antibodies. All you are doing is knocking out mum's antibodies and leaving the puppy exposed. Reasearch has shown that this causes failure to protect in some puppies and the last vaccine should be given at 16 weeks.

In an aside from our canine friends. I have auto immune disease and can no longer have a flu vaccine as I am supposed to do every year. The last vaccine that was given to me cause such a sever reaction  ( collapsed)caused the doctor to run to the pharmacy for drugs to treat me.

My 21 year old grandson a very happy and bouncing baby until his first vaccination at two months old. He is now a 6' 3" severly brain damaged 'baby'.

To vaccinate or not is a very personal choice, but to refuse to look at the evidence is to put ones head truly and firmly in the sand - even the manufaturers product data sheet state that vaccines do not need to be given every year and are most likely good for life! Why are humans not subjected to yearly vaccines for whooping cough, measles, small pox, polio etc?

Rant over!

That's a very sad case indeed. Certainly the poor puppy wasn't well enough to be vaccinated.

I'm reminded of the puppy belonging to a poster on here, who was booked in for its first vaccination but for one reason or another (I think their car broke down so they couldn't attend) they didn't keep the appointment and the puppy didn't have its injection. That evening it had a fit. Undoubtedly it would have been blamed on the vaccination, whereas it was entirely coincidental and not related at all.

I have a breed that is still happily feeding from mum at 8 weeks.  And, I have to be fair, is still likely to give a comfort suckle at 12 weeks when they leave home

Each to their own Jean but I prefered not to lumber my bitches with having to be continually 'nursing', whether taking any actual milk or not, once the puppies are pretty much fully weaned onto solids. Getting them off their litters by around 6- 7 weeks helped them go back to good condition (trim undercarriage - relevant with the low-slung Basset!) sooner rather than later, rather than having to be dragged down by big Basset puppies.   'Little adults' was just my expression - meaning they didn't need to still be relying on mum .... which did tend to make life easier for the new owners.  They missed their familiar life, surroundings, breeder and siblings, but not mum by the time they went home

As for vaccination - again natural immunity from mum is thought to start dropping off by around 5 weeks until generally, most puppies could be assumed to have none left by around 8 weeks.   Vaccinating when they still have some natural immunity simply means the external vac. won't take, and is pointless.   The only way to be sure about any of this however, is by having the titres tested.   But for a whole litter that's expensive so again I preferred to go by 'the norm'.   Again each to their own however - and for every article that goes in one direction with all of this, there is always another that suggests the opposite!!

Dr. Ronald Schultz (the world's leading canine vaccine expert) has proved conclusively that the core vaccines last for at least 7 years.  Unfortunately the veterinary profession is ignoring him, even though he states that over vaccination is causing chronic illness in our dogs and cats.  Once the one year booster has been given any vaccine within the next 7 years is unnecessary and possibly harmful.

For those who say they've never had a dog with auto immune disease do you know which diseases are classified as autoimmnune?  Rheumatoid arthritis for example.  This page has some useful information and says "Researchers have recently begun exploring the possibility that many well-known diseases have an immune component. Endocrine diseases like hypothyroidism or diabetes mellitus may be caused by immune rejection of hormone-producing cells. Kerratoconjunctivitis sicca (KCS or "dry eye") due to the shut-down of tear production responds to the antirejection drug cyclosporine. Chronic active hepatitis (liver disease) may also have an immune basis. These and many other areas of medicine are being explored for possible connection to the complicated world of autoimmune disease."  http://www.canismajor.com/dog/autoimmn.html#P

I have a dog with an auto immune disease she has only ever had puppy vaccines and started with the auto immune at least two years later so as it happen such things can also occur with out being linked to over vaccination, possibly  due more to  a genetic element.  No I don't booster yearly however without vaccines there would be a lot more dead dogs and humans as most of these diseases were and still can be fatal. Its a personal educated choice.

I don't think anyone is advocating no vaccinations satincollie. Just not giving them if the dog already has immunity.
But if we were suggesting giving children yearly vaccines everyone would be up in arms saying it is totally unnecessary. 
When dogs were first vaccinated nobody knew how long immunity would last, a year was the timescale that vets just decided on. They just plucked it from the air and was not based on any scientific data.   Since then more research has been done and we now know that immunity lasts a lot longer. And often for the lifetime of the animal.

But many vets are still advocating full yearly vaccination, which has more to do with maintaining profits than the health of the animal.
And I totally agree with your point about personal, educated choice, but very often people are not aware of the choices available to them or are frightened into giving unnecessary  vaccines.
Not always the vets fault they get very limited time on the immune system in vet school, mainly given by a drug company, and data sheets.
Some vets have been questioning the vaccination protocols for many years, but they were in danger of being disciplined by the BVA. Who I am afraid have sat on the fence and not given any direction.

>I've owned 47 dogs in my lifetime. 46 of them have been vaccinated every year, all their lives. Only one had problems with being vaccinated so we stopped after 2 years. I've never owned a dog with auto immune disease.

so approximately 2% of your dogs have had problems with vaccines. Quite a high percentage. And if you add to that the fact that as a current breeder the likelyhood is that at least some of those dogs will be young and therefore it is too early to say that they will never have problems in the future, the percentage could rise.

Can I ask if anyone uses the titre testing to determine if their bitch has enough antibodies to give protection to an upcoming litter...does it work like that?

I never vaccinate every year but do my bitches that I intend to breed from every 3 years as I worry that the bitch will not have enough antibodies in her milk to pass to pups.....but i'm still not happy with that and feel it's probably uneccessary and would like to have my bitches titre tested a few months before mating to check levels...anybody else use this method?

Ali