Sorry for the long post in advance! Today was our clubs first summer fun day (and last).

I did not see the following happen this is only what others have told me who did see it.

Dog A and owner arrived with her partner and other dog. The sat a little bit away from the other dogs. Dog A trains with me, isn't aggressive but likes his own space, if another dog gets in his face he does sometimes bark. He is a rescue,  I have never seen any need for him to be muzzled. His owner is cautious though and gives him the space he needs.

Dog B and owner arrive with partner and other dog. They sit close to Dog A, owner of dog A moves away a little to ensure her dog has enough space. Partner of Dog B gets up and goes to stroke Dog A (Dog B is off lead) and follows owner and gets in Dog A's face. Dog A lunges forward and nips Dog B's ear.

Dog B's ear bleeds a lot (as ears do) it was cleaned up and dressed and owner was not overly worried. They continue with the funday, including having the dog running around.

Dog A's owner is very upset, muzzles the dog and decides to go home.

After about an hour dog B's dressing comes off from running around, ear is still bleeding so they decide to go the vets. The ear was dressed again before they leave. They were recommended by us that if they were going to the vet to 'get a move on' as they might make it so that it isn't out of hours. No other reason as it wasn't a major injury.

They leave and phone a while later to say the vets were going to stitch it and Dog B would have to stay in overnight after the anesthetic (which I didn't agree with but hey, im not a vet!) Owner B wants owner A's details to get them to pay the vet bill.

I didn't give them the details but passed on owner B's details to owner A (with their permission) and asked them to call them which they did.

About half an hour later I get a very upset owner A phone me to say they have said if she doesn't pay the £400+ vet bill they will take her to the small claims court or report her to the RSPCA for having a dangerous dog!

I did not see the incident happen, I only know what others have said although both sides seem to agree on what had happened. Really I am after some advice for both parties. I am not happy about how owner B has reacted although I can see she is obviously worried about the expense of the vet bill and the dogs ear but at the same time owner A is worried her dog will be taken away or PTS.

The fun day was held at my house in our paddock so not in public (I know the DDA now applies to private property) but as far as I'm aware it doesn't cover dog on dog (unless it's a service dog-which it isn't).

Any advice really for me to pass on to either party? I didn't want to get involved but it seems I have now been anyway!

My advice would be that Dog B's owner should hopefully take a lesson from this and not to let their dog approach an on-lead dog!

I am not a legal expert but it seems to me that if dog A was on the lead dog B was off the lead and following the owner. in effect out of control then it is dog Bs fault the accident occurred. It also seems to me that if owner B carried on with the fun day and let their dog carry on running around then this quite likely caused the wound to carry on bleeding. I would tell owner B that its tough they cannot make owner A pay. It would probably be a good idea to contact Trevor Cooper for advice to be certain.

Take witness statements and contact details if you havent already.

I've been told that ear injuries are rarely stitched.

If the wound was minor enough for the dog to continue to stay at the show, then there is something which isn't adding up.

Even the most slight of ear wounds can bleed tremendously - I've seen an accidental ear wound where the tiny tip of the ear was taken off - gallons of blood over owner, splattered everywhere, took fifteen to twenty minutes of compress to stop the bleeding. And dog sent home bandaged up over the ears, because shaking the head is enough to re-open the wound.

If the owners of dog B had been concerned about their dog's ear, they should have gone to the vets in a reasonable time,  not at the end of the day.

Very unfortunate, but I can't see how the owner of dog A can be held responsible for an offlead dog causing a problem.   Any dog could snap,  if another dog gets in their face,  it's just unfortunate that this snap connected,  however it does show just how close the other dog was.

Definitely call Trevor Cooper.

I'm assuming you have insurance cover for the funday?    Might be worth checking if the cost of the call is covered.

I am not happy about how owner B has reacted although I can see she is obviously worried about the expense of the vet bill and the dogs ear...

If she was worried about the expense,  surely she'd have stopped the dog running around,  this alone might have stopped the ear bleeding,   or taken the dog to the vet as early in the day as possible?    Seems to me the owners deliberately delayed in order to 'up the bill'

Yet another owner who believes they can allow their dog to do as it pleases,  and others should pay the price :-(

Not ear,  but tip of tail.

My youngest bitch,  a bit loopy and very excited  to be at a show,  wagged her tail like a loony and probably caught it on the breeze block wall.

Blood was spraying everywhere!   Never seen anything like it.   Yet the actual wound was minute,  barely visible.

Luckily a friend took us off to his bench and applied some styptic powder and pressure.   It still takes about 5-10 minutes,  even with styptic powder,  but it did the job.

I've seen it used on ears to good effect too. 

Allowing the dog to run around would have kept the blood pressure higher,  ensuring the wound bled for longer and much more profusely.

Negligent owner on several counts.

What a shocking situation. Owners of Dog B that didn't care enough to get their dog to the vet immediately but cared that they were going to be out of pocket. This expense could have been spared if they had kept their dog on a lead and respected the other people and animals around them. 

The owner of Dog A had done a good job up until now of avoiding situations that could cause her dog to react but must have known it was possible as she carried a muzzle with her.

Both owners have responsibility for this situation so it would be fair to share the expense. Just my opinion.

I went to my first and last dog fun day about 20 years ago. The winner of the Heinz 57 class (huge mastiff type) walked past an elderly, top winning show Sheltie and grabbed it by the neck and just would not let go. The owner did nothing but drag it away with the dog still held in it mouth. The elderly owner was hysterical, people were kicking the mastiff, the sheltie was fitting. It finally dropped it where it died at its owners feet.  I think people just relax too much at these types of events. I'm sorry this has all turned so sour for you, after what must have been a lot of organising on your part.

I'd suggest that the owner of Dog B has been talking to others and has been persuaded to take this further on the grounds of 'compensation'.   Sick.   I'd need to see a vet bill to support that figure too ...... when we had the occasional spat, it was often ears that suffered and usually this didn't involve stitching - in fact our then vet use surgical glue (as used in the a battle theatre) which is far better.   And none of mine needed a g/a either.

Yes, contact Trevor Cooper.   It may well be enough to call their bluff?   But don't count on it because if they are being wound up over this, they may well continue with this.

FWIW if Dog B approached Dog A who was on the lead and under control, the fault can't be your's!!!

Thanks everyone, im going to give them both a call later today to see how the dog is etc. I don't really want to get involved in who pays the vet bill, thats for them to sort out between them but i make it clear that owner B cant blackmail owner A into paying or she will report the dog, its just not on (and I doubt anybody would be interested anyway).

I do have club insurance that covers all our events and will advise owner A to contact Trevor Cooper as well.

Needless to say we wont be having another one next year!

If the owners of dog B had been concerned about their dog's ear, they should have gone to the vets in a reasonable time,  not at the end of the day.

If there is any bite between any species animals the animal must go to the vet to get penecline or other anti-biotics to stop inevitable infection.
.

>the animal must go to the vet to get penecline or other anti-biotics to stop inevitable infection

If there has been a lot of bleeding (as there always is from even the smallest nick on an ear) then infection is unlikely because all the contaminant has been flushed out.

I am sorry your fun day turned out so badly. Whats the saying "no good deed goes unpunished" :(

Why was the owner of dog B going over to stroke dog A? did he ask permission. Why was Dog B off the lead? In a situation like this with lots of dogs around that dont know each other I would have thought no dogs should be off the lead. And certainly not free to just wonder up to another dog. What is meant by Dog B gets in Dog As face? did he just get a little close  with his owner, or was he actually trying to interact with the other dog, or being actively a nuisance?

Did you see the wound? Who did the dressing? did it seem like it would need stitches? If Dog Bs owners were that concerned then they should have taken the dog to the vet straight away. In any event it is not surprising that the ear continued to bleed if the  N dog was running around. Excercise will have that effect. The injury could have been made worse by the dog shaking his head or by the dressing being pulled off. Did You see the injury at the point Dog Bs owners left to go to the vet? It does seem unusual for a dog to have to stay the night after what  sounds like a relatively minor procedure.

From your description it does sound like dog Bs owners are at least partially responsible for the situation and quite possibly brought most of it upon them selves. It does seem like it would be worth speaking to Trevor Cooper about it.

>It does seem unusual for a dog to have to stay the night after what  sounds like a relatively minor procedure.

The vet won't have allowed the dog to go home until it had fully recovered from the anaesthetic, and that can take several hours. If the surgery had had to be delayed because the dog had eaten recently then that would add even more time, and so an overnight stay would have been best practice.

It's incidents like this that are the reason I never take Daisy anywhere there are likely to be other dogs, over the years, I have found a large portion of the dog owning public are utter fools.

Oh gosh think some people want to think what they are doing Dog B owner I mean. Yes contact trevor cooper he is brilliant . As I understand the dda it doesn't cover dog on dog unless the dog is a service dog of some kind.
It seems in this case Dog B owners are being a tad unreasonable, if they were that worried they should have taken the dog originally and cant really understand why and overnight stay unless it was very late by the time the dog came round and it was thought easy for those concerned than picking dog up in the early hours
Just another thought I wonder if the dog is insured ? are they also claiming off their insurance for the bill ? sorry just a  bit of a synic 

I do agree with Celli owning a dog has become a nightmare these days I would rather keep all three of mine away from anyone any thing in case of misguided accusations :(

My advice is Dog A should document, document, document.  It may be too late, as these things should be recorded as soon as they happen while they are fresh in the mind to be admisable in court (as per my OH from his Game Warden compliance days and I'm in Canada so take as you will) and not a day later.  But better late than never.

Dog B's actions are really suspect and stupid:

-Approached a dog obviously removed from him and petted it without asking permission. (it seems, not clear)
-Allowed his dog off leash to approach an on leash dog obviously removed for a reason.
-Did not Vet promptly. (but did have dressing so this is muddy too)
-Threatens blackmail, ie pay bill or be reported as a dangerous dog.

Obviously dog A is dangerous whether a bill is paid or not (not saying it is) so I think this is the most important piece of information, this attempted blackmail.  Unfortunately life is not fair, I bet there are not witnesses to the attempted blackmail, I doubt it will matter even if there are any witnesses since Dog A did bite and injure Dog B.  So for Dog A's safety I think his owner should pay the bill.  Is that fair?  No way.  Life is not fair.  But it might save Dog A from an uncertain future. 

This is how I look at it:

If dogs at the fun day were allowed to run free off lead, if it were that kind of atmosphere as I imagine it would have been, in a private field and other dogs there were friendly with meet and greet going on, how was dog B's owner to know dog A was going to bite? Absolutely anywhere else I would say that a dog on lead is the innocent one and the loose dogs owner is to blame, but if this is a private field a fun day......with other dogs loose, I would expect all dogs there to be dog friendly.

I would also expect Dog A's owner to tell me very clearly to keep my dog away as their's is a little skittish around other dogs, seems to me none of this was done, you can't expect other dog owners in a private 'garden' all be it a big one, to understand why a dog is on lead or to notice they are moving away from others.

The bite happened and it was treated as best as possible, I wouldn't have taken my dog to the vet for an ear bite either,  seems to me this owner also thought to leave it with the wound dressed. Hours later to find the ear is still bleeding, well many, may very well then think they ought to take a dog to the vet as it hasn't stopped?

If the ear needed stitching, it needed stitching, dog A's owner should pay for that under the circumstances of it being a fun day with loose dogs there....... the stay in the vets is ridiculous not needed and I would not pay for that luxury, Dog B went along with that, their choice, not something Dog A should pay for, but I would pay for the stitching.

Of course, Trevor Cooper can be contacted, but under these circumstances I'd be paying up for the stitches.

Was it a 'loose dog funday' ?

The only fundays I've been to,  everyone kept their dogs ON leads,  apart from those dogs competing in the Terrier Racing,     Lurchers and Terriers racing together,  and each dog individually taking part in the dog agility.   These activities,  set well apart from other goings on.   All other activities took place with the dogs on leads.

With so many dogs there, it would have been chaotic if all dogs had been off lead, not to mention irresponsible.

The fundays were held in a huge field, with a community hall attached.

I would have thought it would bedifficult to get insurance cover for a situation where all the dogs were off leash for the whole time?

we go to the annual Omni Terrier Derby on Epsom Downs. It is a fantastic day out but you have to keep your dog on a lead unless they are racing and then it is an enclosed area.

I really feel for you as what should have been a really great day has turned so sour. I do hope the owners resolve this for all concerned especially you. I would guess everyone else had a fab time it's such a shame after all your hard work.

No it was not a 'loose dog funday', dogs were supposed to be on lead unless taking part in something. It was held in a private field and only dogs that attend classes were allowed to be brought along. There were no more than 20 dogs and the 'majority' kept to the on lead rule for the duration.

Then I think Dog B's owner is entirely responsible for what happened.  Has it been pointed out to them that their dog should have been on lead?

yes it has and the response was 'its well behaved, it doesn't need to be!' Obviusly had it been seen off lead it would have been told to be put back on but I didnt have eyes in the back of my head

Answer to that is it wasn't being well behaved if it interfered with a leaded dog.  Simple canine body language would have told it the other dog did not welcome it's attention 9in canine terms it was being rude), and simple human common sense should have told them not to allow it near an on lead dog when itself loose.

> yes it has and the response was 'its well behaved, it doesn't need to be!'

Well with that kind of attitude, I'd say the owners got what they deserved! Entirely their fault.

Fully agree with MsT. Clearly it DID need to be on a lead!

I've never known a vet to stitch an ear. I have one dog who has a tear down one ear after a fight and the vet said it was virtually impossible to stitch. (I asked for it as it was a show dog.) And yes ears do bleed a lot. Last year at one point we came home after a shopping trip to find blood all over the kitchen -on the floor, on the dog beds, up the walls, on the windows. Turned out there had been a small scrap a and one dog had a slight wound in one ear. Yet you'd have thought somebody had been slaughtered judging by the amount of blood. I never took that dog to the vet at all, just kept her quiet and cleaned the wound and it healed quickly.

This is just the arrogant sort of behaviour which causes problems in the first place!

Clearly the dog wasn't well behaved enough to be off lead in company with other dogs,  or it would not have stressed out another dog to the point of snapping!

I feel very sorry that you have had to deal with this, it was completely avoidable IMHO   I also feel very sorry for the owner of the dog who was on lead and snapped,  the stress must be awful.

I don't feel sorry for the owner of the dog who was offlead,  their arrogance has led to their dog being injured and they still are trying to blame someone else for that,  they need to wise up, learn some manners and learn to keep their dog on a lead.

>over the years, I have found a large portion of the dog owning public are utter fools.

I, too have made this observation.

yes it has and the response was 'its well behaved, it doesn't need to be!' Obviusly had it been seen off lead it would have been told to be put back on but I didnt have eyes in the back of my head

In that case, my first post is defunct, Dog owner B can sing for their money............ the dog should have been on lead if everyone elses were and particularly if indicated to do so.  Your friend needn't worry about anything happening to her dog, dog on dog attacks do not warrant a dog being taken or destroyed, only on service dogs as already said. If all were on lead, it is Dog owner B's fault completely.... and unfortunately her dog paid the price or rather she did......

Tell your friend to just sit tight......... nothing the lady can do.

Clearly it isn't well behaved, so I'd be telling owner B to go jump!  Idiots.  And in future, if they turn up to an on-lead fun day and have their dog off lead again, I'd ask them to leave immediately unless they follow the rules, and remind them that those rules are there for a reason and that anything that happens because their dog is off lead is their fault, no-one else's.

My boy is currently going to kc bronze award training. As an entire stud dog and having been attacked he can be a bit 'victor meldrew-ish' if a dog comes over aggressively. He stares and goes rigid but doesn't react further. We sit in the middle of the class, well away from the 3 other entire and (of which one is) clearly a active/reactive aggressive dog. Last week I had to have a word with the leader as the couple who choose to sit next to us have a 7 month cavalier who is continually allowed to wander over into my dog's space. We made it quite clear at week 1 that at his age, he prefers to be left alone - he sleeps during most of the class because he can do it all. The couple (little know it alls) do not keep their dog in his designated space, let him try to start playing and try to climb all over my boy. I know he is still a puppy but as responsible dog owners, we keep our boy's attention on us, keep his lead short and basically follow the class rules. HOWEVER, all things said and done, if my boy is laying down and the puppy jumps on his back, he can IF HE CHOSE TO, very easily twist back and reach his own rump or snap. All the owners do, is pull their pup off after he is trying to do these things rather than preventing them,while texting on their iphones.

The class leader cannot be blamed here (nor can the op) because she is working with a class of 8 dogs and up to 16 people. It is up to each dog's owners to keep their dog in check and to stay within the club/class rules. Owner B's off hand remark just cements the belief that they are the ignorant owners and not owner A.

I'm with owner A....owner B can take a flying leap. There's only so much you can do but idiots will always be everywhere!

Thanks all for the advice and info. I have spoken to owner A today, she sent me across a copy of the vet bill which was just over £400 with no overnight stay. The dog did have stitches. They have reluctantly decided to offer half of the bill (i did say she shouldn't!) and i believe this has been accepted. Her reason for doing this is that owner B had been pretty nasty about the whole thing and had threatend again to report the dog or take them to court. I did say reporting the dog would do nothing and she was unlikely to go to court but I think with the stress of the incident they just want it done with. I will be speaking to owner B at training tonight as I feel if she behaves in this way she isn't the sort of person we welcome at our club. (I want to hear her side of things first to be sure its not all one sided)

GSD owner, we run Bronze Good Citizen classes here and for the simple reason that i cannot monitor a lot of dogs I restrict my groups to 6 maximum and they all have a clear set of rules when they start. I find 6 is a good amount to manage and watch :)

its sad that the owner has been bullied into paying anything - forget half! its horrible when you get so stressed over something that isn't even your fault.

just to clarify - our class has two trainers who deal with 2 training elements and work from either end of the line so that no one is sitting idle waiting for the trainer to come round. this cavalier couple just sit there and moan - i think they expect their pup to do it on his own. i don't understand how they can spend £45 for the classes and then not bother to put in the work!

i'm pleased everything will be sorted for your sake and i really hope you might reconsider about the fun day later on. its a shame everyone else will miss out because of such people.

We also only have 5 and there are really strict rules. No dog socialising during the lesson. No chatting focus on your dog and what you are being taught. Definitely no phones. It sounds really boot camp but it's lovely everyone encourages everyone else we laugh constantly and have a natter on the way home.

We have a very reactive collie we don't avoid him but all of us make sure we give each other our personal space

And i bet in their heads (dog B)  they are right!