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Topic Dog Boards / General / DCM Related Post (Nikita, UK Dobes?)
- By Hethspaw [gb] Date 28.07.14 07:01 UTC
I was wondering what the ultrasound tests are as far as DCM goes, - below is from the Austrian Dobe club site - my understanding is that normaly the tests only show a dog to be free at the time of testing. As Nikita gave a very high incidence in Dobes here in UK (I think you said above 50%) then what benefits are there to testing?.

I dont understand why these tests are done on a regualr basis (around twice a year) by lots of Dobe breeders in Europe, so some of you elaborate on whats at the link below? & maybe discuss DCM here, its not mentioned very often & if Dobes here have such a high % incidence of it surely there must be other breeds here which are badly affected, I have never read on any UK forum about regular testing - anyway can those have some knowledge of it expand this?

Some DCM tested Dobes Austria
http://bit.ly/1nMG0iv
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- By Nikita [gb] Date 28.07.14 08:06 UTC
Not sure what I'm looking at on that link apart from a list of unaffected dogs?

As for here... last time I checked the incidence here was around 60%, but that was back in 2011 so it may well be higher now.

Testing here is three options on the real-time detection side: basic ECG, which is essentially useless; 24 or 48 hour ECG (holter monitor) which can be very helpful and some people say it's the only definitive way to diagnose but I disagree; and the echo (ultrasound) scan.  Personally I would go for that first as it'll pick up the physical changes and can detect them long before the dog becomes symptomatic.  There is also now the troponin level test; this measures the level of troponin protein in the bloodstream which is released when heart tissue becomes damaged.  This correlates well with heart status and is a useful first stop; raised levels would indicate moving on to echo/holter testing.  It can be done at a year old which is a benefit; It's cheaper too - not sure on the exact cost but I *think* less than £50 (don't quote me on that!).  Whereas an echo at my vet is £90, or at Liverpool £350; and a 48 holter at mine came in at over £500 with a £100 deposit in case the recording device was damaged (it cost them around £1000).  In future I will be using the troponin test on any new dobes I get when I get them - they'll be rescues so adults already.

I would LOVE to see twice yearly testing here, I really would.  The problem with any tests as you've said is that it's a snapshot - a dog can test clear one day and develop it the next, it's the nature of the disease.  You could argue that this renders testing pointless but some is better than none IMO.  As far as I know dobes have the highest incidence of any breed but I am a little behind on my info so happy to be corrected on that!  They aren't the only breed prone to it though, certainly.  Deerhounds I believe are, possibly sighthounds generally but not sure on that.

A huge problem here is breeder denial - either denial that the problem exists at all, or denial that it exists in the breeder's lines.  So the overwhelming majority of breeding dogs do not get tested and the ones that do, often aren't tested enough (annually would be a minimum for me).

There are problems with the testing of course - the snapshot problem for one thing, and age for another: most cases don't show symptoms until the dog is 4-5 years old or older, by which time they've been bred (although echo testing can pick it up younger).  However if we did not have breeder denial; if the proper records were kept, if pups were kept track of throughout life, we should in theory by now be in the position that we could look back over the pedigrees and identify carriers (as of 2011 ~85% of cases were genetic in origin, possibly all but they hadn't identified the cause of the other 15% at that time - not sure what the status of that is now, I really need to get myself up to date!).  But of course, with the BYBs and even a lot of the show breeders not doing the tests, we can't.

At present, there is no requirement under KC for regular testing or indeed any recommendation for heart testing at all for dobes - something I find absolutely ridiculous.  I'd like to see annual testing (both holter and echo) made mandatory for anyone on the assured breeder scheme (well frankly, for anyone breeding them at all, but we all know the chances of that happening).  Lack of knowledge is still a massive problem here as well as denial and I think changing that would go a long way to changing things for the breed - I've had dobes for over 11 years now and in all that time, apart from the people I met at the 2011 seminar on the disease, I have met one person who was already aware of it.  One.  And he is only aware because of the 7 dobes him and his wife have owned, they've lost 5 to it - but they weren't aware before they lost the first one.  They also weren't aware that the only symptom can be sudden death - all theirs went the slow, heart failure way, then I took my Soli in after her heart attack and they learned about that side of it.  Soli's brother's owner was the same - never heard of it before his dog dropped on a walk.  I have spoken to countless dobe owners over the years out and about and it's always been the same - no knowledge of it whatsoever.  I'd understand that with a minor ailment - the prevalence of hypothyroidism in the breed for example, because it is typically not fatal or particularly dramatic but for something like DCM, there is a massive gap in knowledge that really needs to be addressed.
- By Hethspaw [gb] Date 28.07.14 18:11 UTC
Thanks for that overall view, I suppose that sort of situation us something I expected, but, thats a wrong attitude for someone/me outside the breeding standards here, only people within the breed & some experience of what the wider scene & it the social attitudes which are really the foundations of whatever the breed has become health wise.

apart from the people I met at the 2011 seminar on the disease, I have met one person who was already aware of it

Its so very confined to UK & to some extent some Euro countries where there are very few Dobes & maybe their attitudes are little different to here (guesswork on may part). I have been told some time ago by an eastern european (cant remember which country) that they had refined Dobes for hunting, but she was also clear that health was always important to them.

Theres a lot of things in your post, what I really need to do is call someone, probably in Germany, & find out what their current knowledge is in regards to the tests maybe giving some kind of predictablity or if they have eliminated things which a few years ago may have been suspect & which now have been eliminated as being related, that sort of things narrows possibilities.

Either way there are ample dogs which undergo the regular tests to give the veterinary unis & related enough data to study it more extensively & thoroughly so a wider scale of knowledge is readily available - what I do know is that DCM is not a problem in Northern Europe. Their whole attitude  is not comparitive at all to here, their concern is to maintain the breeds health throughout europe & definatly their goals are to eliminate dogs from the breed if these is some reasonable reason that breeding from it might eventually spread throughout the entire european pack - of the breeding regulations of the club are broken the club which is owns the prefix bans the breeder from ever using the prefix from that point and that breeder is banned from the club & can never register a dog they have bred again, for life, theses no half measures or second chance.

A huge problem here is breeder denial - either denial that the problem exists at all, or denial that it exists in the breeder's lines

That is exactly the same as in 1976 when I took on my first (rescue) dobe, the difference now is that way of wheeling & dealing dogs (how else can it be described?) so ingrained & covered up that an unhealthy dog is 'normal' "Oh they all have it" - its really so far outside I gave had anything to do with its just a sort unbelievable world of the Dobermann, what must be taken unto account is the fact that KC UK is the only breed registration club in Europe which does not have mandatory testing before they issue a fit for breeding licence permits....

So all these and more variables have developed the huge 60% DCM figure - but as you say, quote:

A huge problem here is breeder denial - either denial that the problem exists at all, or denial that it exists in the breeder's lines

Yes & I doubt its 'just' Dobes or 'just' DCM - its a bl**dy shambles and those who suffer are the dogs themselves & unsuspecting buyers.

I will skype a couple of people over there this week sometime & see if there is anything new which might be useful to know.
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- By Nikita [gb] Date 29.07.14 08:55 UTC
The attitude over there is so different to here, it's wonderful.  Here, the majority of breeders are BYB as our culture has descended into selfishness - I want a puppy now, I want to make some money, I don't care about the dogs that make it for me, and the denial on top of course.  And everyone's an expert now - everyone knows best, no-one needs to go to an experienced breeder for guidance and you'll get a mouthful if you dare to suggest that maybe they don't know best.  It's a mess, it really is and I don't know how we get back to a point of sense now.

I think DCM is a big problem in the US too and I suspect it comes down to the same attitudes over there - I know they also have a huge BYB problem (indeed that's where the term BYB comes from to the best of my knowledge) and I've known a lot of owners who've lost their dogs to it.

I think we're reaching a point in this country where the only feasible way out for dobes is either a lot of imported bloodlines or outcrossing, because if we only use totally unaffected animals with good pedigrees from unaffected ancestors, the gene pool will be so dramatically reduced that we'll end up with a whole host of other problems.  But then imported stock might bring its own problems as I believe from what you've said a few times, the European dobes are much higher drive than our own as working ability has a much greater emphasis for breeding animals - the vast majority of homes here are pet homes who would never cope with a working type dobe.  One of the breeders I met at the seminar had working lines, I *think* her last litter at the time was half european and she was finding the puppy she kept incredibly hard work.
- By Goldmali Date 29.07.14 09:51 UTC
as I believe from what you've said a few times, the European dobes are much higher drive than our own as working ability has a much greater emphasis for breeding animals - the vast majority of homes here are pet homes who would never cope with a working type dobe.

A friend has just taken on two rescue Dobermanns -both docked and cropped. One is from Serbia the other from Hungary. I noticed straight away the male is a lot like my Belgian import Malinois -absolutely fixated with toys, nothing matters more than toys and of course tugging. (My own dogs would come away from a bitch in season for a chance to tug.) Personally I have come to love this and it makes it SO easy to work with the dog -the will to tug overrides anything, including fears, so you always have a way to motivate the dog, and continental breeders clearly have managed what UK breeders seem to struggle with  -have dogs that BOTH have the breed's drive AND the looks for the show ring. But yes, they would not exactly make suitable pets.
- By Nikita [gb] Date 29.07.14 11:52 UTC
I think again that's the culture difference (although I am now totally speculating): here dogs are primarily pets and an awful lot of people expect them to just have a walk and then do nothing; over there I think the owners/breeders are far more active about their dogs, more involved and more driven to work with them so they can cope with the increase in drive.

It's a good thing IMO and something we could do with seeing more of here - a shift back towards dogs being seen as dogs, as active, working beings, not just pets or even accessories.
- By Hethspaw [gb] Date 30.07.14 04:14 UTC Edited 30.07.14 04:28 UTC
The attitude over there is so different to here, it's wonderful.

As far as Dobes go, health as a whole is always a priorty & what I think also greatly distinguishes them from here is that the dogs themselves, their genetic health predisposition for life & longevity as a whole is always a centerpoint of subject in conversations - what is very refreshing is that the one time 'eastern block' & Finland have taken up those prioritized applied practices in keeping with mainstream Euro Dobe countries, the samples below are the ex eastern block, although Finland has always been sort of a place of its own - all are DCM tested.

The point of it all is so that any dog of the breed can live a life of high activity & quality of life without problematic genetic impairments inhibiting that quality - when the vid clip at the end of this was shot she was 11years 1 month old & I think it displays the ability of an eldery dogs potential to fullfull that end.

1. Hungary
health tests at age of photos given
http://bit.ly/1nE0vNc

2. Croatia
health tests at age of photos given
http://www.delnaissus.net/dogs/artur.html

3. Poland
Health tests given on left panel of photo
http://www.dobermann.pl/puppies/BOB_fabienne.htm

4. Finland
Health tests below name 'Kriegerhof Viva L'more'
http://www.kriegerhof.com/VIVALAMORE.html

11years 1month
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRuMCwYnnvA&list=UU2MktiTK0FWV_zmtKYndqpQ
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- By Hethspaw [gb] Date 30.07.14 05:41 UTC
But yes, they would not exactly make suitable pets.

Yes your right, maybe that is a big shortcoming in all my meanderings about euro Dobes this & that & its probably been because when related subjects come up I never really 'think' about them in the context of suitable pet dogs here, they are not suitable for that, they are very, very self demanding high drive & high drive endurance dogs, combined with a compartive high degree of their readiness to work in their original working role. I guess Im so habituated to them that I dont really think enough about the wider context of a well meaning pet owner taking one on in innocence -

Most people get a dog to add something to the quality of their own lives in a non time consuming, 'only needs food & water' kind of way. It just doesn't work that way not just with euro Dobes but with many other breeds which may be carrying remnants of working genes which put their own genetic based behavioural demands for expression & outlet on the dog itself, so we end up with rescues brimming at the seams & so on & so on....think I need be more careful about some of my posts seeming to map out an ideal, healthy pet dog...OMG
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- By Hethspaw [gb] Date 30.07.14 07:05 UTC Edited 30.07.14 07:10 UTC
Hethspaw wrote:

The point of it all is so that any dog of the breed can live a life of high activity & quality of life

Thats v badly written - The 'point' of the health & work testing in Europe is to maintain the entire breed in Europe as a healthy, resilient breed, throughout the lifetime of the individual dog & to eliminate individual dogs from the breeding programm those dogs which might compromise those goals, I think the unexpected appearance & play vid clip with the BC pup illustrates those goals are being met, that clip was shot 14th July, she was 11 years 8.5 months, her age shows when she struggles a bit to get back up the bank of the brook but otherwise she's still in 'fine feckel' for this breed at that age.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Gw_LOzllI
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- By Hethspaw [gb] Date 30.07.14 07:30 UTC
a lot like my Belgian import Malinois

That's interesting, I have wondered when I saw the photo, is it a ringsports ancestry?
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Topic Dog Boards / General / DCM Related Post (Nikita, UK Dobes?)

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