I have a 5 year old Frenchie bitch, who recently took serious fits for the first time in her life. She took as many as 8 grand mal in one day ..these started one week after bringing home a new puppy ..vet says there was no connection.. However from the onset she was pretty severe with the puppy .. Although he was termenting the life out of her.. I had to step in a few times to calm things down ..she was put on 4 phenobarb per day .. Fits have stopped , but last week she severely attacked the puppy , both front legs are ripped with multiple puncture wounds .. She has never ever been an aggressive dog in any way .. I can't believe how bad this attack was , if I hadn't been there I think she would have killed the pup.. Vet told me epilepsy can change the character of a dog .. I'm wondering is it the drugs or the epilepsy ? At a loss how to tackle this .. Stop the drugs? Keep dogs separate for ever? Or get rid of the pup? .... Help

>Stop the drugs

Most definitely not.  You will condemn your Frenchie to even more seizures.  That would not be fair.  And, in all fairness, under the Animal Welfare Act you are required to provide for the welfare of your pets.

Bringing home a new puppy, you would expect an older dog to put a puppy in its place.  Which is totally natural.  Your new pup has to learn what is, and what isn't tolerated.  Interfering would just confuse the issue. 

>vet says there was no connection..

I've had a dog on  phenobarb for 3 years.  Like your dog, late onset epilepsy.  She had her first seizure at 6 years old.  At 9 years she is doing well on them.  Has your vet told you that your dog will need blood tests regularly to measure the levels of phenobarb, and altering the medication as required.

I am wondering if you had not interfered in the "pecking order" that things would have been fine.  I would train the pup to get used to a crate for time out whenever it gets over the top and too much for your Frenchie. I have to say that my bitch had no changes in her behaviour at all.

It is just possible that a very bouncy pup may have triggered seizures in a dog that was already inclined to have them at some point. If you view arrival of puppy as a significant change in the environment that in turn elevates stress hormones which then affect brain chemistry, you get the picture. I would say that your bitch would have probably started to have seizures at some point and it is unfortunate that your pup is the environmental trigger...however, it could have been anything, even a thunderstorm etc.. Bottom line is your bitch must have some predisposition to have seizures.

The phenobarb, since it is early days, may possibly be making her feel a bit odd which in turn, along with changes associated with seizures and changes leading up to seizures, will possibly be making her feel more vulnerable, she may also feel slightly unwell/strange. In a nutshell her internal world has changed at the same time as her external world which is quite a lot to contend with and might explain the unusually severe attack on your pup.

My advice is to monitor all interactions between pup and bitch for now and let the dust settle a bit. Given this very severe attack I feel you have no option but to be very hands on. Ensure the bitch has plenty of space away from the pup and don't let pup jump all over her. Ensure any interactions between pup and bitch are positive and move pup away if it gets OTT. Ensure bitch gets plenty of quality time with you away from pup, so she does not feel her whole world has crumbled.

As I say, had the bitch only grumbled and snapped we might let the pup take its chances but puncture and tear wounds means the bitch cannot cope and needs your support. The pup also needs your kindly help to burn off steam away from the bitch and to begin to learn manners around her.

Don't take your bitch of the phenobarb.

Good luck

I have no experience of seizures or the meds in my own dogs however, I have looked after a dog who had a similar level of fitting and who was on the same drug IIRC.  What I saw in him was increased aggression, reactivity to nothing - literally,he would suddenly fly at the air as if he was going for another dog - and he was generally out of it on the stuff.  The owners reported the same problems.

Now there is another drug, which came onto the market last year.  Again no personal experience so of course I can't recommend it, but a friend of mine is trying it with her dog who has just developed mild epilepsy, as she won't touch the pheno because of the side effects as he's already a very generally stressed dog.  It's called Pexion and is supposed to have much fewer side effects.  No idea if it's suitable in this case of course, but I thought it was worth mentioning in case it might be of any use - maybe worth mentioning to your vet if the pheno continues to cause problems.

Well I had something like this. Once a dog of mine (the sweetest, gentlest Golden Retriever you could imagine) was put onto epilepsy medication, he did start to attack the other dogs. He'd also sit for hours and stare at walls. We had him castrated and he started fitting during the op and when he woke up he attacked and injured both the vet and a nurse. It took a full year before he settled down on the medication and became more like himself again -but he's never been 100 % since. His brain just stopped functioning properly, he forgot all his training for instance (this a dog who had passed his KC Good Citizen GOLD before his first birthday), and he was too tired to go for more than very short walks, for years. I can't remember the exact timelines, but he started with epilepsy aged about 3 and was on medication until something like 8 or close to 9. The vet (a new one we had changed to) then said they wanted to do blood tests to check if the medication was working as it should etc -we'd not had any fits in years. The results came back saying the medication did NOTHING whatsoever, so they guessed his fits had stopped naturally, and advised us to slowly, one by one, wean him off the medications. He's now 10 ½ and FINALLY able to go for longer walks again, although his brain has never been as sharp as it once was.

I would most DEFINITELY not stop the medication as it sounds like you would most likely lose your dog then. But I would seriously consider finding the pup a new home as it would be the fairest solution for both.

I don't know if there is any truth in this or not, it was just something a vet said to me years ago.
I had a Golden that had a fit when she was about five years old, so took her to the vets. He said to monitor her for further fits first before deciding on any meds, but he added that it could well just be a one off. He told me that with epilepsy in dogs the fits rise to a peak at about five years and then tail off. Which I suppose could be the case with Goldmalis Golden. No idea if that is still the thinking nowadays regarding epilepsy in dogs as it was some time ago.

Sadly, I agree with Goldmali and would take the pup back to the breeder, he won't be safe, seizures, never mind drugs can induce mood changes and brain damage in people and animals.  To attack a pup like that it's not acceptable and I would forever be in fear of it happening again when least expected, I know it is upsetting, but for the pups sake and also to alleviate your girls stress levels it's unfortunately the wrong time for a pup.

Here is a link to a useful article http://kimmurphy.net/shaman-article.html

I had a dog on phenobarbital when he started fitting due to a brain tumour. I remember him being totally out of it for a good two weeks whilst his body got used to the drug. Maybe that's what happened in your case.

I was talking to my friend this morning and she mentioned that it's also worth reviewing diet - the more natural the better.  She helped a collie who was having grand mal seizures a few years ago, on pheno I believe, with changes in diet and calming exercises he has had no seizures since and is not on any medication.  Your dog sounds considerably worse than he was but I figure every angle is worth looking at :-)  The less additives the better - he was put on Burns.