Hi we have had him 4 weeks from the age of 11 weeks old and from day one have constantly shown him we do not tolerate biting we tell him no then put him in a boring small space for a few mins to calm down we have tried yelping turning our backs on him but he just finds anything to grab and bite drawing blood sometimes growling and barking too!! Its getting us all down i have previously owned dogs and been through this but never ever this bad but never had a toy/small dog before is this normal or have we picked the worst pup out of the 3 left :( please can i have some advice

You had a lot of advice from your last post so what have you changed based on what people have suggested apart for turning your back and yelping ?

I think it's going to be a case of persevering with this, a friend had a Bichon pup a few years back and had the same trouble, apparently very very common in this breed, they aren't easy puppies.
Can the breeder offer any practical advice on this?

Without actually being with you to see him it is hard to know. He is 15 weeks now-is that right?

First, have you spoken to the breeder? How are the littermates doing, is this behaviour he/she recognises in her line, does she have advice?

If you are feeling really stuck I'd seriously consider getting a reputable behaviourist in (See UKRCB or APBC for someone near you). I say this because you can go on taking advice from this site but without actually being there it is a bit of a shot in the dark. There could be something all of us are missing that proper assessment would reveal. In addition, if you are getting down and feeling tired and frustrated sometimes you cannot see the wood for the trees. All those negative, stressy feelings (not your fault) will also be picked up by the pup.

You are an experienced owner, you have kept saying this feels different- get someone in to get an objective assessment and some advice on the way forward.

Thanks for all your help and kind advice really appreciate it

> have constantly shown him we do not tolerate biting

Be careful with trying to get rid of all biting BEFORE you teach him to be softer at biting.

Have a read of this The Bite Stops Here

The first paragraph:
Puppies bite, and thank goodness they do. Puppy biting is normal and natural puppy behaviour. In fact, it is the pup that does not mouth and bite much as a youngster that augers ill for the future. Puppy play-biting is the means by which dogs learn to develop bite inhibition, which is absolutely essential later in life.

I know it's horrible with a bitey puppy, my 3rd dog was horrible as a youngster, it took a few months I'm afraid before she stopped being a piranha. Might be worth as others have said getting an expert in just to be sure there's nothing else you could be doing to teach her faster, but try to persevere, she will learn eventually. Possible as a toy she is slower to learn that as well as slower with the housetraining, I've only had small dogs so don't know how fast the bigger ones learn.

I think that you just need a bit of support right now and a fresh pair of eyes. If your breeder, or good behaviourist, can visit and say, oh yes totally typical, a nightmare for a while but just stick to what you are doing and you'll come through fine- then you can relax. However, I think you are in real need right now of external reassurance and a forum is probably not enough.

I think you are at a stage where you cannot see the wood for the trees and are losing confidence. It happens to the best of us. Think a fresh pair of eyes and a bit of hand holding is what you need just to get your confidence back up- ensure it is someone that knows the breed. Breeder would be best first contact. A good breeder will really want to help and to step in, if need be. Failing that a good, qualified (degree level) behaviourist (no aversives).

You sound as if you totally wish you never had this pup.  I for one think the dog is picking up your feelings.

not at all i do not wish i never had this pup just never ever had a pup bite as hard as this one we cant even play with him as soon as we try he wants skin or clothes to bite on then when told no he growls and barks we have perservered with a firm no then time out but when hes let out starts all over again no matter how many times we do it anti chew spray he licks just feels like its never going to stop we thought a small friendly dog such as a bichon which we did homework on was ideal but everyone is upset at the constant biting (breaking skin) :(

we cant even play with him as soon as we try he wants skin or clothes to bite on then when told no he growls and barks we have perservered with a firm no then time out but when hes let out starts all over again no matter how many times we do it anti chew spray he licks

This is no different to what you said you were doing when you first posted!

Have you tried any of the things suggested in your other  threads?   if  so,   what have you tried, and for how long?

Why are you telling him No-your puppy doesn't understand words & unless you can say the word in exactly tone & pitch the same 100% of the time-you will achieve nothing.

You should walk away from him when he starts nipping etc, that is what an adult dog does. I personally simply ignore nipping etc & praise & treat when it stops, my puppies/adult rescues soon learnt that nipping etc gets them nothing. If you think a Bichon can bite hard-try a totally unsocialized collie puppy kept too long with it's litter mates without their mother-now that is hard biting believe me

>when told no he growls

Of course he does, the word means nothing to him.  What you are telling us doesn't sound as if you have taken on board what people are trying to say to you.  You need to change.  I feel that you would be wiser asking a reward based trainer to visit and show you exactly what you are doing wrong.  Because you must be doing something wrong.  And abracadabra just doesn't cut it. 

I think I've said this before:  buy The Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell     read it cover to cover      then go pack to page 1 and systematically work through it with your puppy

It works   I promise   

Please remember that it's you and your family that need the training more than the puppy.  I'm not being rude but he is just acting on instinct: you on the other hand can reason, plan, adjust, tweak and try again until you find the best options for his needs

You cannot buy a 'small friendly dog' you have to train one :)

Just as an aside (and not directly addressed to the OP - as I don't know who you got your dog from) some of the worst behaved dogs I've met in the last few months have all been the smallish whitish bichon ish pups.   This a breed that must must must be bought from the best, most responsible, and most supportive breeders.  Back yard breeders and puppy farmers have had a lot to do with changing the basic nature of the breeds they profess to care about and it's the small family dog - found in many breeds - that is paying the price for their greed and poor ethics.

feels like its never going to stop we thought a small friendly dog such as a bichon which we did homework on was ideal but everyone is upset at the constant biting (breaking skin)

Tracey, firstly you are not giving all the good advice in previous posts, time....... this doesn't work in two minutes, one week, two weeks..... it can take weeks for some pups to understand, not because they are stupid but because their own instincts to play fight and act like a pup gaging their own strengths are stronger than anything else, he's enjoying himself and learning. (I know you're not, but he is)

Keep going with the puppy classes (KC reward based classes will be best for him, they will help you to teach commands) and continue with as already said the yelping and ignore plus time outs, please get that whistle, if he is ignoring you, it will help to peak his attention and help you train him commands quicker, again it may take weeks for some pups to learn.

When people have never had a pup like this it is hard to understand, we all expect some biting, chewing, scratching and tugging and yes it does hurt, pups play darn rough and some owners cannot even handle the basic puppy play......... but there are some pups whom go above and beyond what we even expect and the training and your patience takes much longer, that is the only difference, you have a Bichon, try a GSD pup with the same attitude, my brothers eldest was extremely hyper and took much longer to understand the world of domestic dog, he could easily have you bleeding and ripped into you, if you were not on the ball, never met a pup so rough, his other GSD was a dream to train, I once had the same problem with a Springer pup too, many before just the usual, that one, if I hadn't been used to training pups I'd have probably thought him a devil dog too. ;-)

Believe me, both of those dogs grew up to be very obedient, calm and loving dogs, you'd never believe looking at the adults what they had been like as pups. :-)

I fully understand why some owners become fearful and upset, you just need to persevere if you have a pup like this and I always find that whistle invaluable the sound peaks attention and helps you to teach commands far quicker, verbal commands alone can have an adverse reaction, if a human's voice is too harsh, a pup will avoid the owner or continue to attack thinking he is being egged on by an angry tone, or if their owner has no air of authority a pup will ignore their owner and just carry on...... a whistle says neither and is generally listened to, you also need to avert this kind of play with some mental games.

No dog IMO is untrainable and the last thing you should do is expect too much, they are not all on the same level at the same age, everything at its own pace as previously said. Just ignore bad behaviour whilst keeping calm, and don't allow him to bite you or your sons, you shouldn't allow it, remove him and if he needs longer than a few minutes do so, stretch it to 30 mins, if this pup is not learning at all......just do nothing to entice this behaviour or inadvertently reward it.

Calm body language, calm tone, not overly looking at him with sadness in your eyes or hidden (you think) stress. Get on with other things and completely avoid eye and verbal contact with him. View him only as a pup who will take longer to learn to live with humans and get yourselves a 'well, so what attitude,' just walk away and wait until he is ready to learn, when he is 'good', in our eyes, (in his he is just being normal) you need to make sure he understands that too and reward him with a happy tone. :-)

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but look here -
http://www.apdt.co.uk/
and here -
http://www.apbc.org.uk/
for qualified trainers and behaviourists in your area, who could come to see you and observe the behaviour. Sometimes an extra pair of eyes (from someone who is experienced and has been through, or worked with, this type of biting) is all that it needs......

Have you been in contact with the breeder, as they may have some advice for you?

Look also at the UKRCB (UK Registry of Canine Behaviourists).

Also the Animal and Behaviour Training Council (ABTC) is the nearest we have to a regulator and is the body most likely to govern legislation of behaviourists in future -there will come a point when people will not just be able to call themselves a behaviourist but will need a degree in animal behaviour (Bsc) and membership of ABTC/ASAB.

Currently the ABTC list qualified behaviourists with demonstrable practical experience. Members of the UKRCB and APBC must have academic qualifications and are interviewed and supervised for at least a year before membership is granted, both have their members listed on the ABTC www.abtcouncil.org.uk

The APBC deal with many animal species. The UKRCB just with dogs. Behaviourists are generally also trainers, so you will get both on these sites. The organisation for those who are trainers only is the APDT -though some people belong both to the APDT and one of the behaviourist organisations.

Sorry for that little diversion but it is important for people to know.

Are you attending or planning to attend any puppy training classes?
All puppys go through the bitey stage. When i started the Kennel club Good Citizen award i got some excellent advice from a really good trainer re biting. Also, with puppys mind on practising the work we had done in class he was much nicer and less bitey at home.
As others have said, it is about patience and consistency - you will get there if you are constantly using the right methods to teach your dog biting is not ok

Hi yes we attend puppy class weekly still he continues i can honestly say everyone is getting frustrated he gradually getting worse with the biting running jumpin up at us on the sofa barking too actually the barking is becoming a problem aswell now!! he really seems to have an attitude on him i took the same classes with my old staffy who is no longer with us :( and all went really well he however seems to have an issue at times if we tell himoff he barks and lunges at our skin really hurting at times it gets me so upset although i try not to show it

its very hard to stop still  or try to walk away when he is hanging from trouser leg or teeth sunk into feet he is difficult to get to let go honestly never had a small breed before so maybe its just different

That is why I trained the positive interruptor I mentioned on your other thread.  Willow was a serious trouser-biter and a very bitey pup generally, and that 'tool' was the best thing I did and instrumental in stopping her.

> That is why I trained the positive interruptor I mentioned on your other thread. 

I can't seem to find that post - maybe repost here? (just interested).

> he however seems to have an issue at times if we tell himoff

Your pup does not understand our language, it's up to you to teach him what some words mean and/or what is expected of him when you say specific words (training).

Here's things from your pups point of view, there are 2 versions:

First version,
Pup - "yay, moving feet, what great fun, I'll chase them & bite on them like I would a litter mate" (pup obviously doesn't think in words like this, but we need a translation!)
Your reaction - "woof woof, yap grrr, yak, woof" (ie. you 'telling off' pup - as pup hears it)
In this version, the pup hears your 'telling off' as a play-mate getting stuck in with the fun, so comes in harder - playmate obviously is up for rough-housing - bring it on!!!!!!

Second version:
Pup - "yay, moving feet, what great fun, I'll chase them & bite on them like I would a litter mate" (pup obviously doesn't think in words like this, but we need a translation!)
Your reaction - "woof woof, yap grrr, yak, woof" (ie. you 'telling off' pup - as pup hears it)
In this version, pup hears you getting cross and doesn't understand why - he's only playing, he doesn't know what to do know, maybe he's frightened too - nobody around here understands that he's only after a game....So, he falls back on even more instincts and tries to show you he's friendly by trying to PLAY with you EVEN MORE (sort of a calming signal to try to pacify you).

Please re-read all the advice that has been offered to you and do some more research, but not on breeds, on canine beahviour. Your puppy is being a puppy, he just needs patience, training & consistency, not frustration and tellings off.

> he really seems to have an attitude on him

And he thinks the same of you.  In his eyes you are never pleased with him.

I feel so sorry for this pup.

we cant even play with him as soon as we try he wants skin or clothes to bite on then when told no he growls and barks we have perservered with a firm no then time out but when hes let out starts all over again no matter how many times we do it anti chew spray he licks

its very hard to stop still or try to walk away when he is hanging from trouser leg or teeth sunk into feet he is difficult to get to let go honestly never had a small breed before so maybe its just different

Tracey,

You've been given loads of advice now on several threads.

What have you tried besides what's written above?    

Remember, "if you always do what you always did, then you'll always get what you've already got"       In other words,  you need to change what you're doing, if what you're doing isn't working ;-)

I can't help noticing that you keep referring to your earlier dog as a pup.     This dog is not your other dog.    And I can't help wondering if you are perhaps expecting more of this pup as it's very small and very fluffy/cute.     However, it's still a baby dog, no matter how cute and fluffy it is ;-)     If this were a large breed puppy, are you sure you'd think it was over the top?

tracey,

Please,please for your pup's sake, get some expert help in. You seem to be having difficulty understanding how to deal with your pup and I really feel a second pair of eyes in situ to show you what to do hands on could make all the difference. It is pretty clear that, for whatever reason, you are not finding it possible to follow advice on this forum. Have you looked for anyone yet? Perhaps if you tell us what part of the world you live in we can make some suggestions.

When I replied very early on in this conversation about this pup I said Bichons are VERY difficult to housetrain,
I omitted to mention that many owners find them incredibly thick.....your SBT would have learned stuff so much quicker than this for sure and everything you try to teach this one will take ten times as long.

If you persevere with this little one you must appreciate you have bought a breed with these traits.....and apply the advice given knowing that it will take time.

Listen to advice given and put it into practice.Things may not change overnight but should get better will perseverance.

tooolz,

Yes, I agree. I think someone who has owned a biddable staffy may well be confused and, in my experience, staffs learn very quickly and are very keen to please their owners, they are also very forgiving of harsh tones etc.. in training. Bichon is very different. I have one training at the moment and she is a sweetie but a real wriggler/adhd type dog and she certainly has her moments- not in a nippy way but in an airhead ...I am not interested and I just want to do what I want to do....way.

Tracey, I said to you before, if you have your pup on a houseline this will allow you to hold him away from your body if you need to when he is nipping. You tie him up somewhere (a kitchen table leg for instance) and walk away. I think he may be a bit too old for the squealing/ow response. Again some dogs get more wound up by that. Equally 'no'  may be read by him as excitement or a challenge, so stop that. I'd go for no comment and calmly tether him. Walk away, wait until he calms down and try again. The idea is not to punish him, though he will not enjoy loss of freedom or his favourite chew toys (your arms and legs) but simply employing cause and effect to teach him how to be part of the social group. Now it is summer you can try this out in the garden. First get yourself a dog lead stake and put that firmly into the soil (they look like giant corkscrews) and then you can quickly put his lead or line over that and you can walk away and potter around the garden until he calms down. You keep repeating this, without emotion, until he clicks that only by being calm does he get access to you and your attention and on top of all that he is also rewarded with suitable chews and chew toys on which to vent his puppy frustrations.

However, that aside, I still think you should have someone in. A really good behaviourist will be able to show you what to do but they will also look at everything else, his routine, his diet. Some of us can never learn by reading things, we need to be shown. Also in any training there are little tweaks that have to be done around the individual dog and none of us here can actually see the detail of what is going on.

What has your trainer at puppy class had to say / recommend about his behaviour? Has she witnessed it first hand?

> I can't seem to find that post - maybe repost here? (just interested).

Oh.  Sure I mentioned it!

I just trained it like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvPaqMZyo8

Dead simple and surprisingly effective.  I've had a few clients start with it and it's working well for them too - it's an instant distraction you can use anytime, anywhere which gives you a chance to either reward the cessation of biting (or whatever the pup is doing, I've used it for all sorts with Willow) or to ask for an alternative behaviour which is then rewardable.  I had her off my trouser legs in a few weeks using it :-)

I used the positive interrupter method too with the current pup, worked extremely well. Saved my sanity. It may seem to be something that won't work, but it's amazing how it does. Just made the 'kissing' noise to my now 11 month old pup and the reaction was still there - stopped what she was doing and where's the treat. I haven't used it hardly at all since she stopped behaving like a shark on steroids, yet it had become an auto response.

Kikopup does some good stuff definitely worth a look.

This method is great but still think OP may need help implementing it, ie choosing right time to train/timing etc... Perhaps OP can show link to trainer at dog class and they could help? However, if I have it right, tracey seems to say that she feels trainers at class etc.. are all getting frustrated with pup's behaviour, which may mean a number of things. At risk of repeating myself, think she should get someone in.

Normal pup behaviour where pups have each other so owner does not bear full brunt- no training being given: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZMt-jiR1u4

I still use the kissy noise with Willow now - she'll be turning the big 1 tomorrow and she still remembers it, although somehow it's now changed into more of a 'do this now please' cue and an occasional informal recall!

Well the ideal solution would be if you lived near the OP and could teach her:)

Nikita
I've never watched this before.  I'm very impressed with the girl.  I am now going to find some more to watch!

Feel sorry for this pup? Hpw dare you say something like that i am a responsible dog owner have had dogs years u know nothig about me to suggest that i came on her for friendly advice not answers like that :@

I jave expert helpin thankyou :) for your help some people would rather criticise than offer advice

Feel sorry for this pup? Hpw dare you say something like that i am a responsible dog owner have had dogs years u know nothig about me to suggest that i came on her for friendly advice not answers like that :@

You have asked and complained plenty, but actually you have given very little information, except that the pup is still biting and you are doing the same thing as when you first posted.

You may have 'had dogs years', but it appears you haven't gained much experience.     If you had, you'd realise that this pup is just being a puppy, nothing more.   

Try seeing it from the perspective of people giving up their time and many years of experience to help you FOR FREE on this forum.  They have given you lots of advice, suggestions , and even posted videos to try to help you.   Yet you  give no information beyond the initial post and then complain when someone feels sorry for the pup.

For your pup's sake, I hope that the help you are now receiving is knowledgeable.

Given half a chance, this is the exact type of puppy I will always pick from a litter. The one that bites the hardest and has the most attitude tends to be the one that grows into the most confident and happy adult after plenty of hard work. Much better than a timid pup that is so much more difficult to get right. How is the pup played with? Are any tug toys etc used? Better to have him bite toys than hands and if he tries to bite a hand, the game stops. I know from my youngest child (well he is 14) that he has a tendency to try to play with pups WITHOUT using a toy, only his hands, and I keep telling him he won't like it when they are ten times bigger and still think they can bite his hands.

tracey, good you have someone in- I hope they are an accredited and qualified behaviourist? If they think anything is odd they will almost certainly ask for a full vet check before anything else. On the other hand, if, as most of us think ( though we cannot see so cannot be sure) the pup is simply very 'drivey', then I am sure you will get the right help and life should settle down soon.

We dont play tug o war games we were advised not to as soon as we try to play hes all mouth lol like a tazmanian devil i love this puppy with all my heart and honestly think at some point everyone thinks will it ever stop i am a natural worrier thats all cant change how i am the only way we get a break from the biting is to put him in his bed for around 30 mins to calm down and we never put him in there in an angry mannor alway no words spoken just place him in to calm down which he does i know he is a pup being a pup and maybe its a male thing as always owned bitches i just wanted to know if t is common issue with this breed that was all but it seems some people rather shoot you down than help so what if i place a few posts on here thats what the site is for isnt it? Its a forum to get advice thankyou to everyone for all your kind help :)

tracey,

As a matter of interest who advised you against tuggy and why?

The key thing is that very drivey pups have to be taught a solid leave/drop/give in order to play this. You then play only for a few seconds before asking for a leave and this may be achieved initially with a food lure, so the pup does not associate leave with a loss of a valued object too keenly.

Eventually the pup learns that in order to get the game he has to leave and then resumption of the game becomes the reward. With a very drivey pup you have to keep up a start /stop method. This way the pup begins to learn impulse control. I suspect impulse control is something your pup has difficulty with and so an expert will help you to deal with this.

If his behaviour is really extreme tuggy may not be possible at the moment but it is often a great game to play.

Please let us know what the behaviourist advises and how you get on.

It might be worth looking at the 'go wild and freeze' game (tis on youtube), it's great for teaching self control and mouth control as well.  I ahd a customer with a springer/lab, working lines on both sides, absolutely crackers and at 6 months old he was doing everything your pup is doing and then some - and then some more!  He was actually on the verge of risking his own life through being perceived as dangerous.  One of the things I did with the owner was go wild and freeze, starting VERY carefully, just moving around slowly then freezing and building up the amount of movement/action as his self control increased.

It didn't take long before we had a tuggy as part of the game and he was ragging hard (something he used to do to her sleeve) and dropping the instant she asked him to 'stop' (said very quietly and calmly, in a matter-of-fact tone).  You do have to build it up but it can be very effective with these very drivey dogs - but, get a really good sit/down/wait first, so you have a behaviour to ask for as the freeze.

>but it seems some people rather shoot you down than help

No, not at all.  But it is very, very, very frustrating when experienced people give you advice, we get no feed back at all, so don't know where you are in your training.  But you come back and post the very same question.  And again post the very same question.  We are bound to wonder why, and the experts have no idea if you have even tried turning around any of your mistakes.  Which is why you have been advised to get someone in.  Most people would have practised some of the ideas and be at least a bit further forward in their attempts.

I don't recall shooting anyone down, if you are finding it difficult to carry out the advice given, it's best to have a behaviourist in to actually show you what you are doing wrong.

Puppy classes advised not to play tuggy games yet this is how we taught our staffy to leave it and she did it every time she was asked so found it strange as tuggy is exactly what hes doing on our trouser leg lol i really appreciate everyones advice on here looks like im going to have to ride this one out and just persist with removing him from the situAtion when he starts biting

A lot of trainers still believe that tuggy is a very bad thing, either because it supposedly encourages dominance or because it encourages the pup to be aggressive with people.  Neither is true - it can be a great confidence builder for nervous pups (although I suspect that's irrelevent here! ;-) ) but it can also be brilliant for teaching self control, just as you did with your staffy.

Totally second what N says about tuggy (yes Nikita I also use go W & F :)

Tracey because you have said that trainers at your class seem out of their depth with your pup, and given they think tuggy is bad( sigh) this is all the more reason to go with a good behaviourist. If they are properly qualified they will be more up to date in their knowledge.

If you could try the house line so that when he gets nippy you can hitch him to the nearest table leg and then calmly walk away so he cannot follow you, you may well find he learns what is required more quickly. I know why you are putting him away for up to 30 mins at a time, but he won't really be learning from this effectively.

Ideally you want nippy monster, tether for 15 secs, release...nippy monster again, tether again for 15 secs and just repeat until he stops trying to come at you on release...now you want to give him something to chew on and praise. Stay calm at all times. As I said the house line also means you can hold him away from you so he cannot latch on until you get him tethered.

Talk to your behaviourist about this.

I am interested to know if you looked at the link to Bichon pups play biting that I posted. They were playing that fave puppy game "bitey face" and pups can learn to play very roughly if they don't get immediate feedback they understand.

Have you seen your behaviourist yet?

Totally agree with Tuggies being brilliant for the bitey puppy stage :-)     They don't just build confidence in a timid puppy, but they can be used to teach a bolshy pup some limits too.   And they  encourage the pup to do what he needs to  do, but directing it at an  appropriate toy    :-)     Using a Tuggy, it's possible to teach  a really strong 'leave it''   and to teach them to completely stop biting/ragging etc. if they  even feel a finger on  a tooth!        

Do watch the link of the bichon  pups playing,  it shows just how they enjoy biting at things and tugging at clothes   Though personally, I was surprised at how  tame it was compared to Bedlington pups LOL