I have a very excitable, boisterous, playful 10 month old Briard.

I keep him on the lead in public areas as his recall isn't reliable and he thinks that all people and dogs love him and want to play. He is a big boy and I would not allow him to hurt another dog or person by accident. We are doing recall training on a long line in the isolated field next door to us.

The problem that I have is that when we go to the park or a dog walking area for our daily lead walks, other off lead dogs come bowling over to him, some of them are growling on approach and then they either attack him or bark in his face. The owners either ignore their dog and walk on or call them, only for the dog to ignore them. I have really had enough of it, if this continues, he is going to develop problems with other dogs.

I already have an older lady of 9 yrs, who is strange dog aggressive as a result of being badly attacked when she was 14 months old. Despite trying to work through it with her over the years, she has never really got over it. She is fine with dogs that are familiar but not fine when a strange dog approached her, understandably.

My question is what do you do when this happens?

My boy always goes into play mode when he sees dogs, he gets excited, jumps around a bit and sticks his behind in the air. I know that he needs to mix with other dogs and I have no problem with that but not knowing if another dog is friendly or not is my dilemma as I want him to have good experiences at this vital stage. He is also going through another growing spurt and consequently is going through another fear stage. At the moment it is inanimate objects that seem to be the scariest things but, like all of the other stages, he will grow out of it as long as he is exposed to different things and I use my happy voice to encourage him along.

I have discussed this on my breed group but didn't really get a lot of help. One person seemed to think that I am the problem as I am emanating fear down the lead so I will be ruining his confidence. This isn't the issue, I just don't want other dogs jumping all over him. It is bad manners and I would never allow him off lead to go running up to others and behave in a moronic manner so why should I tolerate it.

I am looking for other people with dogs who I can go walking with as he needs to lose the over excitement when he sees another dog but most of my friends either don't have dogs or live too far away. We live in a rural area so I am really keen on getting him out for socialisation purposes and so far, so good. Its just other dogs that we need to find, to mix with where there is trust on both sides.

He is the friendliest one that I have had so far, my old boy used to ignore dogs but would grump if they pushed the boudaries, they then backed off but he was an adult and his personality was totally different to this one.

Avoidance at this stage is all you can do.

Once he is mature and bomb proof enough, he should be able to deal with the odd rude dog, as after all it's part and parcel of canine interactions, annoying as it is.

the rude dogs will never learn either, if they don't get the opportunity to practice social skills.

In the days when dogs had more freedom, were allowed to roam and many were latchkey, they had far better social skills.  Look at the dogs of the homeless in any city centre.

I know with my own two youngsters (under two and just turned three) who rarely get to mix with other dogs outside of shows, mainly as they would probably be the rude dogs, and because I have half a dozen.

They are not as good socially as when 20 years ago when everything was more relaxed, they did meet and great all and sundry, including being and meeting the rude dogs, as the adults soon taught/learnt canine manners,, and do a lot of frustrated greeting barking when we meet solitary dogs on our evening lead walks.

It seems to be the price we pay for living in an overcrowded and dog dangerous (traffic) environment, and the overcrowding in our dog walking areas, especially with the rise of dominant, potentially dog aggressive types, and at the the other end of the spectrum many vulnerable small dogs.

Hi,
You could try this: http://www.yellowdoguk.co.uk/
http://www.yellowdoguk.co.uk/
Not sure if I've put the link in properly but you can Google it.  You put a yellow ribbon on the lead if you want others to give your dog some space.  If there are appropriate places you could print the poster out from the website and stick them up somewhere or give them to the other owners to try and explain why you don't want their dogs all over yours.

Thank you both for your replies :-)

Brainless, I think that you are right, in the past, dogs had more freedom so were better equipped to deal with other dogs. I do happen to agree with you that the best teacher for a dog, is another dog, its just that there are so many aggressive ones out there, people think that their dogs are socialised when in fact they are taken out regularly enough but have no training, the lead is clipped off and they are then left to their own devices! There is a difference. 

Whatdog, the yellow dog is a very good idea, thank you ;-) and coincidentally, I have been recommended this by at least 5 people in the last few days.
I think that I may give this a try, the only draw back may be that the morons round here don't take any notice. I actually saw a women with a walking stick who was clearly disabled, walking her small dog and it got jumped on by something twice the size and the owner couldn't even be bothered to put down their mobile phone to call the dog back. Disgraceful!

Is there anywhere else you can go?

Near me for instance there are 3 places, one small park which I just won't use as I had a bad experience with some abuse from an aggressive owner (dog may have been aggressive too - who knows) it's a smallish area with a high concentration of dogs and a lot that seem to be off lead who should be under a bit more control in my opinion.
There is another large country park where dogs can go off lead.  It's ok on cold wet days but when the weather is nice the world and his wife go and you get a lot of folk who don't like dogs or owners who have rude dogs etc.
The third is somewhere which tends to have more dog savvy people.  It's muddy and a bit rough and ready - the country park is much nicer but you tend to get people who are more accepting of dogs being dogs and enjoy the dogs being off lead and playing.  They are also more accepting of the occasional muddy paws and being mugged for treats!  That way you get the best of both worlds as the dogs are more socialised because they are allowed to interact than the dogs at the other places as they get a much better and more natural setting.

hairypooch, these are very rude dog owners to let their dog go running up to yours, when yours is on lead - and when their dog then behaves aggressively when they reach yours! 

If I were you (and I actually usually hate these products and don't recommend them for solving any behaviour problem whatsoever - this is the only sort of situation I'd suggest it), I'd try a Pet Corrector spray.  You'd first of all, need to work at home to desensitise your own dog to the hissing noise.  Start with someone else spraying it a long way off, and give a treat every time it hisses.  Gradually bring it closer until you can spray it near him and treat, and he doesn't care.  Try it out on walks when there are no other dogs around, always giving treats.

Then, next time someone else's dog comes running over, I'd do the Pet Corrector at it, to get it to go away (and chuck your own dog treats at the same time).  Hopefully the owners will get the message that you don't want to be bothered, when they see this happening!! 

You could also do some Look At That with your own dog, to distract him from the other dog.  Meanwhile, try to make sure he is still getting opportunities to meet and play with other friendly dogs - if you prevent all positive play and the only experiences he gets are these, then he may well decide that other dogs are nasty things.  Training class would also be a good idea for this reason too.  Whereabouts do you live?

At the most basic you could try lobbing a handful of treats at the ground when you see one approaching - works quite well for a lot of dogs and gives you a chance to slip away.

Unfortunately I do have time to read what others have said but what I do is carried a pet corrector and if that type of thing happens i.e. dogs running up growing or intend going for your dog I would spray it at them that usually makes the owners realise you will not tolerate it.

I find it quite rude to use a pet corrector on other people's dogs! Obviously you realise they can be damaging to your own dog's behaviour as you've noted the need to counter condition your dog to be fine with the noise, but what if a really nervous dog (that is also going through training with the owner) comes over and you give THAT dog a bad experience around other dogs and strangers? You are potentially creating problem dogs all around you that bark or cower from strangers in case they make that strange noise. Not to mention the fact you are using an unacceptable aversive training method on someone else's dog without their permission.

I have a dog that is nervous on-lead, but when a pup HE was the annoying dog greeting everything he saw, so I have seen it from both sides of the coin and find a more relaxed attitude is best. In my experience of being a dog walker, the frustrated and excitable greets soon get over the novelty when they've had a chance to realise their owners are more interesting than the other dogs through the use of positive re-enforcement with something like a squeaky toy or a rewarding game of tug for good, calm behavior.

I hate the thought of people spraying a pet corrector at someone elses dog, or their own. What if it is a young exuberant puppy? That could really affect it's temperament and possibly even make it aggressive to strangers.

My breed are quite reserved with strangers, they never run up to a strange dog but where I walk we regularly meet a young bouncy lab puppy and an exuberant beardie pup. Both will come charging up, sometimes some distance from their owners. My lot all huddle against me but the pups mean no harm and after the initial bounces are fine. If I thought mine would react badly to strange dogs running up they would be muzzled, as was my borzoi before.

I think it's a huge shame that so many people nowadays don't allow dogs to be dogs, if all young dogs were allowed to meet other strange dogs off lead there would be far fewer 'problem' dogs I think.

In my opinion it's the responsibility of owners with dog aggressive dogs to muzzle them, avoid popular off lead walking areas and only let their own dogs off when safe to do so, don't tie a yellow ribbon to it's collar and walk down the country park on a Saturday afternoon expecting everyone else to put their dogs on the lead. Let everyone else's dogs be dogs, meet new friends and learn social skills.

To the original poster what a shame your boy meets so many dogs with poor social skills :( What area are you in? Perhaps there are people on this forum nearby that could meet with you?

If the other owners cared at all about their dogs nature, they would have it under control!!
I would use the pet protector or avoidance if you can.  I don't take any chances with puppies natures ever, to the point, I throw myself in the middle!!lol

> In my opinion it's the responsibility of owners with dog aggressive dogs to muzzle them, avoid popular off lead walking areas and only let their own dogs off when safe to do so, don't tie a yellow ribbon to it's collar and walk down the country park on a Saturday afternoon expecting everyone else to put their dogs on the lead. Let everyone else's dogs be dogs, meet new friends and learn social skills.

Whilst in principle I agree, it's getting harder and harder to do that and it isn't just about aggression.  My youngest is currently scared stiff of other dogs - she is naturally nervous but I worked damn hard to make sure she was fine with dogs, only to have three separate incidents of them running over inside a month back in Feb.  The first bullied her, the second ignored her and tried to climb up my back and the third ignored her and went for Linc (who I must say was impeccably behaved).  In the first two incidents, I tried to avoid the dogs involved (and was in a VERY quiet area for dogs, with plenty of room and alternative routes to keep a lot of distance) as I know the first can be a bully and reactive, and I know the second is a loony.  It made no difference, they still came over and she is now more scared then ever :-(

Plus, if you have a reactive dog (whether just frightened like her or actively aggressive), then unless you just don't care, chances are you're going to want to try and do something about it - which means you do need some degree of exposure to other dogs.  If I have a dog like that I go to the main park, which is very dog-heavy, but it's very large so I stick to the edges so I can keep well away and do distance work.  Totally avoiding other dogs is no more a solution than over-exposure.

I do agree though that owners need to pick and choose their walking times with a reactive dog - as you say, not on a saturday afternoon or a nice sunny school holiday day or the like!  It's about balance.

I agree with Cracar I did stand between a dog that came at one of mine and the other dog bit me so yes I would now use a Pet Corrector.

I was getting fed up with my dog being pestered by 2 loose dogs all the time - the same 2 dogs never with an owner in sight. I had my dog sit & rewarded him for being calm and ignoring these 2 dogs climbing on him and snapping at him, but I got fed up with that (he was a super star at that though, bless him).
Knowing that my dog is extremely friendly (even in the face of a dog trying to have a go at him), I let him out on his ling line the next time these 2 loose dog ran at him. He bounded forward into a huge playbow - they scarpered for dear life!!

Sometimes letting a loose dog plainly see that your dog is free to move and not restricted by a lead (fool them by using a long-line), is all that's needed to keep your dog safe. The more room our own dogs have to express their natural behaviour, the better it is for socialising and the less of an easy target they are for the bully dogs that the owners have no inclination to control :)

Thanks all for the good advice ;-)

I don't like the idea of a pet corrector but may have to eat my words on that if things get a lot worse. If I had one of these years ago when my girl spent 3 nights in the vet after a nasty attack, I definitely would have used one of these to get the blasted dog off her. I would and have taken bites for my dogs which when you tell people this, they look at the size of my breed and wonder why they can't look after themselves. Wrong...they are very sensitive, although my pup in particular does come across as a big bouncing fool. Also, I hate to see dogs getting aggressive with each other and just don't want to expose my dogs to this, it is unnecessary.

I will definitely use the long line when we are not road walking but I will need to be careful as I am also aware that if another dog comes over to play, my pup is usually bigger and heavier and I would be mortified if he accidentally hurt another dog. He does play very hard and rough, he plays with my big girl nearly 24 hours of the day and yes, she warns him and nips when he goes over the top but surprisingly, she is very tolerant of him. He does back off when she gets impatient with him as she pins him down and barks in his face...he does deserve it though. Everything is a game to him at the moment and he doesn't take the hint when playing is at an end, even when I am playing/training with him in the field. I am getting there with him though, slowly but surely. He is at that juncture in his life where he has hearing and memory impairment...another year and these senses will return Lol :-D

I hope to go on a breed meet soon, this will expose him to lots of under control dogs of his own kind/size. Another good experience for him.

Thanks again to everyone that took the time to answer :-)

> use the long line when we are not road walking but I will need to be careful as I am also aware that if another dog comes over to play, my pup is usually bigger and heavier and I would be mortified if he accidentally hurt another dog.

I know what you mean, my boy is an English Mastiff and we've not yet met anything as big as him, but if a rude dog rushes him in an aggressive manner, then he gets his space on his ling-line, even being a huge boy :) I could easily live with myself if my dogs size accidentally caused damage to an aggressive dog.

People who think it's OK to let thier dog run up to everything else, really do need to take responsibility for thier own dogs behaviour. I actually don't mind my dog getting rushed at by other dogs, I use it as training practice, but I've been much more relaxed (and hence more effective with training my dog) when I get it in my head that if a stranger thinks it's OK for thier lose dog to pester my leashed dog, that it's their own tuff ***t if he lands a 90kg play bow on 'em. (I am extremely carefull with him around puppies and tiny dogs though, I wouldn't want him squishing them by mistake)

I've got to the point now that allthough I will still be a very responsible dog owner, it's not my place to be responsible for everybody else & their dogs!!

>In my opinion it's the responsibility of owners with dog aggressive dogs to muzzle them, avoid popular off lead walking areas and only let their own dogs off when safe to do so, don't tie a yellow ribbon to it's collar and walk down the country park on a Saturday afternoon expecting everyone else to put their dogs on the lead. Let everyone else's dogs be dogs, meet new friends and learn social skills.

Agree, it's now why mine don't get to go off lead any more.  They no longer have the great Social skills my past dogs had, (the young ones, under two and just turned 3, would fit into the exuberant noisy greeting category) because so many people worry when they see more than one dog off lead, as they have had too many bad experiences with dog aggressive types of dog.

With the best will in the world with sociable but independent dogs, you can't get more than one back on lead instantly if you see another dog coming.

It was so much nicer 20 years ago when dogs and dog walkers were so much more relaxed and tolerant, and the dogs behaved much better, mine and other peoples.  Used to walk five of mien at a time, and beyond early puppyhood the dogs new exactly how to behave with their own kind.

> It was so much nicer 20 years ago when dogs and dog walkers were so much more relaxed and tolerant, and the dogs behaved much better, mine and other peoples. Used to walk five of mien at a time, and beyond early puppyhood the dogs new exactly how to behave with their own kind.

I still live in that world :) Most places I walk are very relaxed with lots of off lead dogs meeting each other without human interference, and rarely a cross word said.

Today for example we met several different sizes of dogs off lead, 2 chihuahuas, lhaso, springers, collies, gsd and a dogue de bordeaux.  This dogue appeared long before his owner, though I could hear her shouting in the distance, he was a young dog, 11 months, at the teenage cloth eared stage. It didn't bother me at all, he was clearly friendly and goofy when he appeared, my elderly collie checked him out and declared him safe, the silkens simply ignored him. Owner arrived a few minutes later full of apologies, no harm done. Imagine how different the scene could have been had I sprayed the dog with a pet corrector to get him away from my dogs, would he attack them next time because of the associated fright, couldn't blame him really?

You are lucky. Unfortunately, it appears that my problem is becoming more widespread as many people that I have spoken to are just as unhappy about it and location doesn't seem to influence how people behave with their dogs. I live in a very nice, fairly rural area but this makes no difference. The fact that dogs are always off lead doesn't necessarily mean that they have any manners, you need humans to teach that. If I let my pup off lead without any guidance on how to behave, e.g. recall, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't come back or just bowled other dogs over.

I agree about the pet corrector, I am anti anything that may cause harm or upset to any dog but when your own dog has been attacked very badly causing nasty, painful injuries, not to mention the vet bill, you tend to consider things that you thought you never would. I wouldn't wish what happened to my girl several years ago on anyone. I certainly will not be tolerant again, forewarned is now forearmed for me and I will act immediately if my pup, albeit large in size, is seriously threatened. I will not have another one of my dogs fearful of dogs they meet because of irresponsible people and their out of control animals.

The problem is there is a big diffrence to a friendly but over excited dog running up to yours and an aggressive dog running up to them. To many people leave those types of dogs off then can't get them back which leads to problems. There are 4 dogs that I know of who have run up to and bitten other dogs in the local field. One his owner mostly keeps him on a long line now, one doesn't think his dog has a problem, the other lies about his not not being friendly and is only worried if it bites an expensive pedigree and the other still walks it off lead last time I saw them and had no recall with it, luckerly it's only male agressive so my girl was fine but I had his owner shouting not to go near him when it was him coming up to us!

My girl has issues with strangers so I keep an eye out for people and put her on lead when I see one we will be getting to close to.

All though even with friendly dogs I think if an owner is going to allow them to run free then they should be able to call them back if needed. There is one dog I try to avoid like the plague, he is an old massive lab and very friendly boy but he for some reason seems to think my girl is season every single time we have bumped into them. My girl is 13inc tall and having this huge male charge over to her and insert his nose where the sun don't shine realy scairs her, he has pushed her over befor being so forceful shoving his nose up there. It allways ends the same with my girl panicking running away with him chasing her around completely ignoring his owner calling him. We both avoid each other now luckerly we don't often walk at the same Times but still on the odd occasion he has taken off to harass her.

> The fact that dogs are always off lead doesn't necessarily mean that they have any manners, you need humans to teach that

I think other dogs teach manners far better than any human could.

If all dogs are allowed off lead every day from the time they finish their jabs they will have far better manners than ones kept on lead to get frustrated and over excited. Of course you shouldn't just let a 10 month old bouncy lab puppy off for the first time in a busy country park, it will inevitably bounce on people and dogs. But if the owner had let the same dog off from 12 weeks then it would be less likely to offend anyone as it bounced on them, dogs would tell it off, it would learn not to do that, Humans would forgive it because it is small and cute. Also young pups are quite insecure and far less likely to run away and get lost, now is the time to teach them to watch you because you may disappear.

As Brainless says the rise in popularity of breeds known to be dog aggressive is a real shame. However I think brought up the same way these dogs are less likely to be reactive and aggressive too. One of my dogs best friends is a huge male entire staffy, he's been allowed to mingle from the day they got him and he's a very balanced, friendly character. Doesn't work for all dogs, for me it's a one strike and you're out rule. If your dog bites one other dog it should be muzzled for life outside. An adolescent male borzoi of mine went for another dog once and he was muzzled for the rest of his life. I was also very careful about when and where I walked him, he still had a great life, free running every day but he wasn't a danger to society.

As with everything in life a little consideration for others goes a long way. To sum up I think every puppy should be allowed off lead to mingle and meet other strange dogs every single day. Dog aggressive dogs shouldn't be an issue because they shouldn't be walking in popular off lead dog walking spots.

> As with everything in life a little consideration for others goes a long way

And that is the whole point of my original post.

> I think other dogs teach manners far better than any human could.

Completely agree with this and my pup has been taught manners from my older girl beautifully but he needs to meet other reliable dogs too. But I certainly wouldn't trust an unknown dog when we are out to teach him. I want a dog that has good experiences with other dogs, not bad. As I have already said, this has happened to me once, never again.

Sadly, it is not always practical to let a 12 week pup off lead in public places and be confident that it is going to be safe.

> Dog aggressive dogs shouldn't be an issue because they shouldn't be walking in popular off lead dog walking spots.

No, in an ideal world this wouldn't happen. But they are.

In a utopian society every dog would meet and greet other dogs without a problem, any young bouncy dogs would be put in their place by other dogs without causing catastrophic injury and all dogs would have perfect recall. But sadly, in a lot of places, we don't live in this kind of world.

I will continue to take steps to prevent my boy from getting hurt and will do whatever I have to. In the meantime, I will only let him socialise, off lead with dogs that are known to him on the occasions that we meet up with them, so he can continue his social skills and treat every strange dog that comes bowling up growling, with deep suspicion.

My friend has sent me some pictures of her arm that got bitten by her own dog. It is extremely nasty. Her foster Collie was jumped on, bitten and then rammed from behind by 2 large bull breeds without an owner in sight. The collie was thrown several feet in the air and landed on some rocks by a stream. When she went over to calm her and gently feel for damage, her dog bit her in panic, Jess (the dog) has 4 breaks in her back leg, and is on crate rest for 6 weeks. I think anyone would agree that this is going to set this girl right back in her rehabilitation and it is doubtful that she will ever walk well again on her leg.

Sadly, this type of story isn't particularly unusual but something that all responsible dog owners are keen to avoid.

Sadly this is now the case around here, and this causes worry in other dog walkers, especially those with the also increasing number of small crossbreeds, who tend to belong to non dog savvy folk, (as do many of the bull breeds) who then avoid anyone with more than one dog, especially of a type they don't know (enter my wolfy spitz types whose recalls can be slow).

So it just isn't worth the grief to walk them off lead any more, unless I choose to only take one.

regarding the corrector I am also one who wouldn't want to carry one. I was really taken back when I visited a training class the other day and the trainer, very experienced was very insistent that everyone should be carrying one of these to use if the case of a problem.
Do not go out with out one was  her direction. She also sold them at the club.
Sorry I am not in favour

The person who posted the original question has a dog which is showing signs of going on to develop aggression because he is being charged by other entire males who are being aggressive towards him.  Not 'exuberant' but friendly puppies, and not every person at a training class using it on a whim - but aggressive dogs whose owners are not keeping them on lead and under control.  It is not a training product and should not be used in that way (I know some awful people do) - it is a last resort emergency-situation product, in my eyes.  I put my own dogs first and foremost, and I'm there to protect them from this kind of behaviour so they don't need to step in and use aggression to protect themselves.  I wouldn't hesitate to use something like this to protect my own dogs from other people's untrained, uncontrolled, aggressive, off-lead dogs.  If they don't like it happening to their dog, perhaps it might make them consider keeping their dog on a lead or seeing a behaviourist to get some help.  If they don't want someone spraying pressurised air near their dog, then they shouldn't let their aggressive dog run up to strangers with dogs on lead.