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Does anyone else think the dogs that won their breed this year were sub-par compared to past winners? I thought the dogs at Westminster were so much better, and I'm not saying this because I'm American. I looked at almost all the Crufts winners' photos and was, for the most part, pretty darn disappointed.
By JeanSW
Date 21.03.14 00:55 UTC
You can't please everybody. :-)
By smithy ![[gb]](/images/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
Date 21.03.14 06:19 UTC
Well I thought the dog that was bob in my breed was streets ahead of the one who won westminster.
And what breed would that be, smithy?
BOB in my breed (from its country of origin) was STUNNING and a worthy winner (beating the UK's breed record holder to BOB), and I have so far never seen a Westminster winner in my breed that would do anything much at Crufts. As so often is the case, the American dogs have a different look to the European ones.
I agree. I watch both Westminster and Crufts each year and the gap between breeds is astounding! From what I can tell the US shows seem to be very much about pizazz and showmanship and then breed type and characteristics. I was reading a very interesting piece about Afghan Hounds where a world renowned breeder (I can't actually remember her name now otherwise I would link it to you.) who was saying that in the US breeders in Afghans are abandoning the classical movement and type of her breed in favour of the more generic and flashy showdog. I hope this isn't a problem which will creep it's way over here. I thought there was some very flashy Westminster winners but equally there was some beautiful Crufts BOB winners who won in stiff competition. Every single one should get the recognition they deserve. I guess that's the wonderful element of opinions, everyone gets to have one :)
We had a Westminster BOB winner entered at Crufts one year and he came third in his class, that was all.
I think our BOB was OK, he managed to win the group afterall ;-)
By Tommee
Date 21.03.14 10:33 UTC
WestminsterCruftsNo contest I think, the Crufts BOB didn't have to be held up by the ears ;-)
By Tommee
Date 21.03.14 11:06 UTC
I always cringe when I see the American bred German Shepherds, I just can't help it. Whilst on break between teaching I was flicking through a book (Bo Bengston's one?) and noticed an interesting part which claimed that at a prestigious show a fight between Wolfhounds broke out in the ring?! I always thought Wolfie's were quite placid dogs, is this drive for more showmanship and 'flash' changing breeds temperaments as well as their outward appearances?
Gosh some of those were awful by comparison -the American ones I mean. Fancy taking breeds that should be able to do a day's work and turning them into nothing but scissored fluffballs. It didn't even look nice.
By tooolz
Date 21.03.14 11:43 UTC
A young lady from the UK went over to get work experience with a professional handler in the US...one of her jobs was to colour the boxers coats the desired shade.
In my breed I prefur the crufts to the Westminster one. My friend in Lhasa couldn't believe the one that got it at Westminster.
But we all know you prefur exaggerated dogs poochlover where as here the majority prefur less exaggeration so I can imagin you would prefur the Westminster ones to the crufts ones.
By Merlot
Date 21.03.14 12:04 UTC
The BOB winner in Bernese was Superb. He came from the continent.
The American Bernese are trimmed to excess IMO.
Aileen
By Boody
Date 21.03.14 13:23 UTC
Wow way to take the shine of peoples BOB, i was BoB at crufts and my boys has 13cc's, i consider it quite rude for you to state they are sub par :(
Sorry JG, this is in reply to poster i just clicked on bottom post.
I think the most extreme differences of all can be seen in the setters! They (and many other breeds) have become caricatures of themselves :(
I'd say the standard of photography, (the shots are often not complimentary, just a quick snap) and the time allowed, we very rarely get any winners photos, unless you have a friend with a camera or a show photographer is passing and snaps a ringside shot, which seem part and parcel of US shows, so it's a quick snap of a dog who is not used to being on a podium, after a long day.
Also thankfully we do still not have so much over preparation and use of products and over grooming in most breeds.
We have imported US dogs in my breed and when you compare their 'winners photos' from US and compare them to pictures taken here, you would not think them the same animal.
Our UK Crufts BOB / BOS winners for the past two years have been torn apart on forums in the breed's home country, and much of the rest of the world. And I hate to say it but rightly so. In contrast the Westmister BOB this year was spectacular, and very correct and not trimmed to within an inch of it's life. The judging at Crufts for us has been nothing short of embarrassing in the eyes of the world at the totally political placing and complete disregard to movement, soundness, and breed quality. Essential points of the standard ignored including mouth, both years not even a glance at the bite by each judge, so called breed specialists. No wonder our breed entries are at an all time low, if it had not been for a fair number of foreign entries (with beautiful examples of the breed with correct and sound movement) who all went unplaced, the actual entry total would have been less than an average Ch show under a good all rounder or foreign judge.
What breed?
By Dill
Date 22.03.14 00:00 UTC
Edited 22.03.14 00:12 UTC
BOB and Dog CC at Crufts 2014 :-) The photo of the BOB bitch illustrates how flexible these dogs are.
Crufts 2014Bedlington Terrier Winners USA (can't find a comparable photo of the Westminster winning dog)
The British dogs are usually kept in a short clip and fairly short furnishings, as the dogs live life without regard for their looks ;-)
I have no idea how the Americans manage to keep over an inch of coat on the body and about 2 inches of furnishings on the dogs.
In addition, paler coats tend to be much softer and lack the mixture of guard hairs which darker dogs have. Guess which coat felts and mats up more quickly?
I find it difficult to look at the pictures of American and European Bedlingtons, they look like caricatures or stuffed toys, and completelt unbalanced.
Luckygirl, a US Afghan won BOB this year at Crufts, and breeders around the world use US-imported Afghans for their programs, so I'd say us Yanks know a thing or three about quality Afghans. No breeder in Europe is better than Grandeur Kennels, as far as I'm concerned. As for the Dalmatian, there are differences in size and other traits, so you can't truly judge them as the same breed. Same for the Shetland Sheepdog, which the US type, to my American eyes, looks far better.
By smithy
Date 22.03.14 07:14 UTC
By smithy
Date 22.03.14 07:25 UTC
By smithy
Date 22.03.14 07:32 UTC
> http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2014/photos/breed/SR62441102.html
the American dogs have one generic showstand which involves over stretching the hind legs out backwards leading to dogs that are overangulated in the rear.and then the head and neck is stretched up with a lead behind the ears making for very straight fronts. All the professional handlers that handle all the different breeds handle them all in the same way. In another hundred years there will be one generic American show dog with different coats and colours but it will have excessively long hind legs and short front legs with no shoulder angulation at all.
By Boody
Date 22.03.14 07:33 UTC
on the whole through all those photos i think it is safe to say the uk dogs look so much more natural, i really hope this American obsession with grooming does not creep over here.
The UK breed standard for the Weimaraner requires "
Topline level, with slightly sloping croup."
The US standard says "
The back should be moderate in length, set in a straight line, strong, and should slope slightly from the withers." So not only is the US standard different to the UK one, the US dog appears to be over-long and is weak over the loin, even judged to the US standard.
The American examples chosen here look prime examples of style over content. Can that Boston actually walk? These examples are all about exaggeration and the art of grooming. Lord help us if we start following suit.
Good grief! How on earth could that sculpture work in the field? Its appalling. My first breed was an ESS and I shudder when I see the American bred ESS. That dog looks like an American Cocker! Just awful.
the American dogs have one generic showstand which involves over stretching the hind legs out backwards leading to dogs that are overangulated in the rear.and then the head and neck is stretched up with a lead behind the ears making for very straight fronts. I noticed when watching the Westminster judging of my breed that several of the better dogs were ruined by bad handling this way. The breed should have a square body, not a long drawn out one, but the handling made them look a lot worse than they would have done if stood naturally. Occasionally when you spotted dogs relaxing and waiting and dropping into a natural stand, you could see the REAL dog, and that was a lot better.
The back on the US Weimaraner makes me cringe, it looks like there is something wrong with it, but as Jeangenie has pointed out the standards are diffrent in USA and UK so you can't realy compare dogs together as which one is better when where there bred has a diffrent standard.
The only diffrence I see in the Sussex Spaniel is the US one has a shorter muzzle and way more coat which after all for a dog who is ment to be able to work I can't see all that coat helping.
Same with the Springer the US one has much more coat I wouldn't call it moderate length which both US and UK standard calls for, I'd class it as exaggerated.
The cumbler I don't realy see a diffrence realy, the lead on the US one is being pulled right up so will be pushing the skin up so that could be making its head look chunkier, but his toplone looks straighter, but can't seem to find any mention of topline in uk standard.
By smithy
Date 22.03.14 12:01 UTC
> As for the Dalmatian, there are differences in size and other traits, so you can't truly judge them as the same breed
This seems to be true of most of the dogs. there is a US type and a "rest of the world type" Why then do you insist on trying to compare the two? You stick to your preference and we will stick to ours. I personally prefer dogs are sound, unexaggerated dogs with no surgical mutilations and who can live a happy life running around without having to worry about the damaging effect on the hugely inappropriate coat.
Sadly due to our Quarantine in the past and the newly emerging dog Fancies in the former USSR American style dog and presentation with Pro handlers ferrying them all over Europe seems to be becoming the pattern in Europe, thank God for the Scandinavians by and large where function is very much part of judging show dogs.
The over angulation behind and straightening of fronts is something that has happened in my breed in the USA with it going the over reaching movement that many photographs show off as lovely movement.
We have US lines here (language means it has often been easier for us to import and research US dogs), and the tendency is evident in breeding results, and something we need to work on to improve.
>As for the Dalmatian, there are differences in size and other traits, so you can't truly judge them as the same breed.
The differences between the standards are size (US dogs are much smaller; 19"-23", whereas our ideal is 22"-23" for bitches, 23"-24" for dogs) and the US allows blue eyes (which is why there's a higher proportion of deaf dals in the US than here). Other than that the two standards are very similar, just worded slightly differently.
By MamaBas
Date 22.03.14 13:12 UTC
Edited 22.03.14 13:22 UTC
From my own breed, I'd take the BOB Westminster this year into my kennel ANY DAY. Which is far from how I feel about the BOB, an Italian bred bitch.
As for how the presentation of the GSD USA and the GSD UK is in those photos, apart from the fact photos CAN lie, again it's a question of presentation and what the eye is used to seeing. In my main breed, hanging the collar round behind the ears I hate, but that's only part of the whole. I've shown in N.American and in the UK, and apart from some differing interpretation in terms of the Breed Standards, it is mainly about presentation.
Many of the Crufts Breed winners were European visitors of which we had loads this year, and they did do very well. Loved the American Afghan btw, even if he/she didn't place in the Group. Should have - at least it would have performed which the Group winning Wolfhound failed miserably to do in the BIS competition.
I'm afraid you'll not get many UK people to accept that the Crufts results were not 'as good as' those at Westminster.
ps It's true, showing in the States is more about flash and generic movement across all Breeds than over here (sometimes on my return to the UK, it made me cringe to watch handlers looking more as if they were out for a Sunday stroll in the ring with their hounds than at a 'show'), which can, for UK exhibitors, be hard to get ones' head round. Also, re the 2 GSDs, at least the American one has a sloped back, not a roached (banana) back although that may just be the way he's stacked in this photo !!
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=CH+ELMO+VOM+HUHNEGRAB&client=firefox-a&hs=IXN&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=LY4tU_2sEMqqhQe8wIEg&ved=0CDgQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=622 Prefer the head on the UK dog.
Smithy, I have to agree that the Crufts Boston was better than the Westminster. The Westminster Boston looked like a deformed gargoyle.
By Tommee
Date 22.03.14 17:25 UTC
The UK GSD is of course a German import. As for the US dog having a sloping topline er it has a sloping BACK when stood relaxed, they cannot stand 4 square because they have excessive rear angulation, which is not in the breed standard which calls for a level back. Also I suggest you look at the US showline GSDs in
motion, it has to be strung up on a cheesewire choker
& the movement is terrible with the dogs rear pasterns being on the ground in movement. How on earth could any of these Champion & Grand Champion dogs gait all day working sheep or cattle. They have rolling over the withers(not in the breed standard) & loose hock joints & these are
ALL Champion/Grand Champion adult dogs !!! They are not moved at a walk, or a trot just the flying gait. You cannot gauge the soundness of a GSD at only at the flying gait nor in single curuits of the ring. Interestingly all the dogs are being attracted from outside of the ring or strung up by the neck to get their ears up !! The second dog in the line up is obviously being double handled
Elmo is not roached back as his back is not above his withers(as in the
Bedlington Terrier )
>because I prefer the flashier-looking Dalmatians and I honestly believe US-bred Dals have sweeter expressions than European Dals.
Flashiness doesn't help a dog trot continually for 20 miles, the way a properly-constructed dal should be able to. Decoration (the spotting) is always of secondary importance when judging.
>because I prefer the flashier-looking Dalmatians and I honestly believe US-bred Dals have sweeter expressions than European Dals.
Flashiness doesn't help a dog trot continually for 20 miles, the way a properly-constructed dal should be able to. Decoration (the spotting) is always of secondary importance when judging.
The full-face picture appears to have the dog squinting in bright sunlight so you can't see its natural expression.
By smithy
Date 22.03.14 18:06 UTC
It is heartbreaking to see how deformed the hind legs of thos US gsds are. Surely even poochlover can see that they are not sound?
> Elmo is not roached back as his back is not above his withers(as in the [url=undefined]Bedlington Terrier [/url])
The only reason Elmos back is not above his withers is because of his deformed hind end. The excessive angulation makes the whole of his rear end several inches lower than the front. If you were to put a long ruler on his back it would tip like a seesaw from the hump. I used to have a GSD many years ago but it was a nice sound well angulated dog. Not the travesty that they are now.
By Tommee
Date 22.03.14 19:05 UTC
I'm not a GSD person, but I do know a sound animal & Elmo is that. Whether you like his"type"or not, he does have a full set of working qualifications which a "deformed" dog wouldn't have. I would like to see one of the GSDs from the past(when the popular name was still Alsatian) do the endurance test, tracking, protection work & control-they simply would not have been able to do because they were not physically or mentally sound enough. He also has had a full set of health tests done-again years ago this wasn't the case & those who favour the"old"dogs still believe if you don't test, your dogs are physivally sound :-(
The main difference I see between Crufts and Westminster are the number of entries and the handlers. In Vallhunds there was a grand entry of 2 this year! Also it appears that the culture in the US is to use a professional handler to take your dog in the ring whereas here in the UK we still normally handle our own dogs. Last year I had an American lady talk to me at Crufts about my breed as she had Pem Corgis in the US and because she couldn't afford a handler knew her dogs would do nothing in the ring, She was looking at Vallhunds as she felt she could be more successful due to the lack of competition!
I know I'm a rubbish handler but the day I don't take my dog in the ring is the day I stop showing!
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