hi my girl a toy breed is 56 days from first mating today she has previously had 1 litter which she whelped on day 62 with no problems at all but this pregnancy has been totally different, shes on antibiotics for a uti infection and she seems like shes just slept the whole way through, also last time i regularly felt the puppies move near the end this time i cannot feel a thing even though shes quite big and her appetit has not been half as big as before anyway my question is i work from home as i have my own business so am with her 24/7 but today she is pooing an awful lot and its a bit runny shes on royal canin mother and babydog dry food so i no its not down to her food but my worry is incase her body is starting to clean its self out ready for labour if she did happen to start to go in labour would these puppies be viable at this stage as i was lead to believe anything under 59 days from first mating would not and i no the dates are exact when she was scanned my vet who is very experienced in scanning said it looked like she had taken from first mating so am feeling a little panicked at the moment and advice would be much appreciated xx

>i was lead to believe anything under 59 days from first mating would not

Who said that?  What a load of tosh!  :-)

My toy breed never goes to day 63.  In 40 odd years I've had more litters born on day 56 than any longer gestation periods.  Pups are definitely fully viable at this stage.

I'm aware that it seems to be a toy trait.

Thankyou so much you ve made me feel alot at ease it was one of the nurses at the vets when i rang and asked to be honest i normally only deal with owner but she was not in so spoke with one of the nurses hence why i felt panicked i wud much rather gain advice of people who have actually been in the position rather than people who just read about it so thankyou again xxx

If it helps. my girl has a litter at present and  had them at 58 days from 1 st mating. Not a toy breed. Alll was fine.

> would these puppies be viable at this stage as i was lead to believe anything under 59 days from first mating would not

From everything I have read and taken on board, it all depends on when the bitch actually ovulates, which might even be before the actual mating.

Therefore, 59 days might be the actual gestation period for dogs, except that for many/most it is later, as the eggs aren't released immediately, and are fertilised later.

If you have a bitch, breed or even a certain line, which ovulates very early (especially before their most receptive day) then of course, it would seem as though the gestation period is shorter.  The eggs may have already been released, and are fertilised much faster after the mating.

Then there are bitches who ovulate several days after mating, and fertilisation also may not take place til much later, leading to those occasions where the litter appears to be over the 63 days. (It is the same in cats, although mating usually triggers the release of eggs with cats, so "early" litters are less common).

I have had a litter (of 9) born day 58 from a single mating in a medium size breed (20kg adult bitch)

63 days is just the average gestation time taking all breeds into consideration.
Even pinpointing (hormonally) the ovulation, many Toy breeds routinely whelp well before 63 days.
Mine around 59-61 but much earlier is fairly common.
The 'average' for each breed is more useful than the whole dog population.

My bitch whelped on day 58 from one mating on day 15 of her season, all a good size.

I hope it goes well for you :)

62/63 days is the norm.   Mine tended to go over rather than under (Bassets) but also tended to inertia, secondary - the moment pain was felt, it was ouch mum.  End of.   Oh for a free-whelping breed/bloodline!!    Clearly the longer she can hold onto this litter, the better, but as has been said already here, each bitch is different and based on when conception actually took place.   No two pregnancies are the same however.

It would worry me if, by the seventh week, I saw no puppies moving around but again as long as mum is otherwise healthy I'd leave it to her full term before hitting the vet's office.    At that point the choice would either be inject to get things moving, or x-ray first to see whether or not she does have puppies.

As I've written here before I don't do scanning which isn't accurate, just a guide as to whether there is a pregnancy, at the time of the scan, or not.   Experienced or not, I'm confused about how a vet could tell from a scan, which was the mating that 'took'.       This based on the fact that I had a vet who swore up and down with my bitch who had cancer, that 'scanning was enough', and refused to do x-rays.   When the Sen.Partner appeared after I'd taken two outside opinions, and did the x-ray, her chest cavity was riddled with tumours.

I guess you have two choices - sit it out until she's full term and then get to the vet, provided she's otherwise okay, or take her in now for x-ray and assessment.

ps   I've never understood the need for 'mother and puppy' dog food.   Provided the bitch is on a good normal diet, and plenty of it, especially before whelping, surely that's enough?   Puppy food is for .... PUPPIES.   Once she's whelped, and you see what number of puppies you have, then you adjust her diet accordingly.   My opinion.

>62/63 days is the norm

Not in my breed, we would be panicking at a bitch that went to 63 days! The litter I had that were born naturally were about day 58 I think. Oh, and with a small litter you might well not see puppies moving around.

Oh, and with a small litter you might well not see puppies moving around.

True!

Not in my breed, we would be panicking at a bitch that went to 63 days!

Me too. In my toybreed I always expect pups before day 60, the only time I have had them later was when pups were dead. In my large breed I count day 58 as the first possible day and always expect them before day 63 -was starting to panic this time when the bitch went 62 days!

thanks guys can i just ask are you s going from first or second mating for toy breed?

First mating.

Thanks goldmali i really appreciate your help x

Goldmali can i just ask you out of interest when going from first mating whats the longest you d let your girl go and if a girl does notstart to whelp other than a c section is there anything else they can do just asking as my husband just asked me and i thought you d be the best person to ask hope you dont mind xx

>62/63 days is the norm.

Certainly the norm for my breed.

If it was my toybreed, where I know my bitches never go past 60 days, I would be at the vets by day 60. Progesterone testing to see if labour had started and there was a problem. If it was my large breed I would wait to 63 or 64 days. Really hinges on what is the norm for the breed and/or particular line.

And my bitch had a big litter for her size and i hardly ever saw or felt movement. They're making up for it now though!

Goldmali can i just ask you out of interest when going from first mating whats the longest you d let your girl go and if a girl does notstart to whelp other than a c section is there anything else they can do just asking as my husband just asked me and i thought you d be the best person to ask hope you dont mind

I'm not Goldmali (clearly!) but again provided my bitch was otherwise okay, no nasty discharge or other distress, I don't react until 2 days over, from the first mating.  Generally speaking.  But again, clearly going by what's been said here, some breeds differ in their delivery date?

It has been suggested that taking the bitch out for a good car ride can get things moving.   Whether I'd do this -never have - is another matter!   Also I didn't go straight to a C.Section - a shot of oxytocin would be tried first, after examination by my vet to establish what was going on and if that didn't kick start things, then a C.Section would probably be done.

Well guys just a quick update now on 64 days cant believe it never thought id get to this point and she is showing no signs of anything happening soon i had her scanned again friday pups heartbeats seemed fine and she had an internal which showed she was starting to dilate but i have an apoointment tomorrow and have a gut feeling its going to be a c section. Can i just ask first time around she panted and shaked for about 2 days before beginning to push then once she started pushing it didnt take long at all but this time ive had none of that has anyone else had a bitch who was completly relaxed 2nd time around??

No two pregnancies are the same - even with a repeat mating (same dog).   But I'd certainly be off to the vet in the morning if she's now 64 days gone and sitting there.   I fear you may be looking at a C.Section - but at least you won't be hanging around waiting on each delivery - in some ways turning up and collecting a batch of nice clean warm puppies can have it's plusses, even if it's ouch vet bill, and mum has to recover AND cope with the demands of her brood.

Good luck!

Ellie was relaxed with her singleton, I went to the vet at about 61 days after first mating, it was a Saturday, he checked, could feel one pup heading towards the birth position with a strong heartbeat, bitch was fine, happy, eating and perky, so he advised to leave till Monday morning to save costs on C-section out of hours. This particular vet is very experienced with whelping in my particular breed as at least two long time breeders have used him for many years so I did trust him, and she was fine over weekend, no straining or nesting, no looking worried. Monday morning I got up and she was looking a bit unhappy at that point, luckily we had the section booked for first thing and the single puppy was fine.

Thankyou very much im booked in for 4 t9day have woke up this morning and shes in heavy labour cudnt believe it ive still kept my apointment in case i need to go but hopefully it shud be any time now xx

Hooray!

Any news?

She had a c section she was in labour all day and was pushing but nothing was coming out vets and myself tried about a good hour feathering but they said head was getting in the birth canal but rest of body cudnt seem to budge they tried a shot of oxytocin but it didntvseem to do anything they wanted to try another but i requested a c section she was tired and i knew it was the way it was going to go anyway she had 4 boys 1 girl they said 2 they had to work on for a long time but eventially they came around im delighted she and pups are fine if id left it any longer i think i would definetly have lost the pups and had a very poorly girl its definetly learned me that in future theres no way id let any go more than 2 days over. Can i just ask they are very big for breed size since getting them home they ve nursed constantly but cried all night do you think with them been so overdue they are just very hungry xx

>they ve nursed constantly but cried all night do you think with them been so overdue they are just very hungry xx

Have they lost, maintained or put on weight?

Constant nursing should bring the milk in as long as pups are strong.  If they fall asleep wake them and get them suckling again as anaesthetic can make them sleepier so they don't suck enough.

They ve put on a little bit weight its the biggest boy who seems to not feed or be as loud as the others the vet showed me how to bottle feed as she said puppies after c section tend to not latch on as well but i only want to do that as a last resort as my girl is really trying with them shes hardly slept for been so attentive xx

If the noisy one hasn't lost weight then he is getting enough to go on with, and will soon have enough to gain with as long as he is feeding frequently.

thank you very much they are alot more settled this afternoon and are all latching on alot better I think they may have just been a little slower in grasping what to do. xx

>I think they may have just been a little slower in grasping what to do. xx

This is why with a C section it is so important to keep plugging pups on, waking them if need be, as they will be affected somewhat by the anaesthetic.

Mum also needs closer supervision for a few days, as she may not be quite with it,, be clumsy, or not realise pups are hers.