I was contacted by someone late last year as they had a Golden puppy who was having issues with stomach problems. She had contacted the breeder but was not getting any help and so a trainer at my old dog club suggested she contact me. She had been to the Vets numerous times but the antibiotics were only giving relief for a short period and then the problems were returning. I suggested that she ask for a Campylobactor test. I was then contacted again a few weeks ago to be told that the pup had died at 8 1/2 months of age. Obviously one devastated owner. I told her to contact the breeder as they would want to know but unfortunately the breeder replied that as she was 25 kg, then it was the owners fault as she was obviously too fat (not in my opinion). The post mortem has come back as sudden shock and heart failure. Now comes the crux of the matter. The breeder was recommended, however, the breeder who owned the mother did not breed the pups, she had all her bitches homed elsewhere with a friend who bred and reared the litter at her home. The new owner has never met the breeder who the mother is registered to and yet the pup had her affix on it. The contract was not signed so the person who reared the litter counter signed for her friend. Now these friends are both CH show judges and the person who had the bitches at her house is an Accredited Breeder. No-one is helping this lady come to terms with her grief and is basically wiping their hands of this matter. I do realise that the death is probably just 'one of those things' but surely when we breed pups then we should at least give help and support to our puppy owners. Now does anyone else believe that this is unethical because in my opinion an Assured Breeder should not be breeding someone elses affix at their premises. Opinions please.

I am no breeder, but I think that stinks from start to finish.  It sounds really fishy about the "breeder" farming her dogs out.  And the attitude of these people is shocking toward a grieving owner.  If this happened to me I would be looking for dna proof that the dogs who were my pups parents on paper really were the same dogs who produced the litter for a start before you would convince me this was in any way legit

What a sad story. :-( Did both the parents have the same affix? It's well within the rules (or was until recently - it might have changed) for someone who bred both dog and bitch to give them their own affix, even if they haven't bred the litter, and it's not unheard-of for bitches to whelp somewhere other than their home address, for reasons of convenience. How this is affected by the ABS is another matter and not one I know enough about to comment.

It's well within the rules (or was until recently - it might have changed) for someone who bred both dog and bitch to give them their own affix, even if they haven't bred the litter,

This can still be done but all the pups would have to be transferred into that person's name FIRST, away from the breeder's name. (Did this last year -I was the breeder of the litter that was born here with me but my mentor had bred both parents and asked if I'd mind if we added her kennel name to the pups as well, so these dogs have 2 kennel names both at front of the names.)

It isn't unusual for somebody to have a bitch on breeding terms and so the breeder wanting pups off her before she is transferred into the other person's name and on such occasions the person who actually has the bitch living with them may well prefer to have the pups born there as well -the bitch is their dog after all, and used to living there. But on those occasions I've known then BOTH people have taken just as much responsibility for the pups, and both have been in contact with the buyers. Bit like on Dragon's Den where you get two investors sharing, you get double the help. :) Or at least that is how it SHOULD be!

As for this poor pup and poor buyer, had it been me I would offer sympathy and a free pup, my conscience would not accept anything less.

Thank you for your comments. That is exactly how I see it. Support and a free pup, but so far only condemnation about the weight. The owner has been fighting to bring the pups weight up as she has had so many toilet issues. The PM says that she was in good body condition with good coat. Just to clarify. Breeder A is an Assured Breeder and bred the Sire and Dam. Breeder B bought the Dam off Breeder A and has other bitches but keeps her bitches at Breeder A's premises (about 200 miles away). Breeder A has not used the Loan of a Bitch arrangement but has whelped the Dam at her premises and sold all the pups from her premises. The pup had Breeder B's affix on it. Hope that makes more sense as it is just such a confusing situation that it is hard to put into words. I do wonder what the KC take on having someone elses bitch living at your premises and breeding from it especially with all the Assured Breeders checks going on and paperwork needing to be up to date. Also co-signing the contract? surely that makes a contract null and void. Also Breeder B has only spoken to the owner on the phone after she bought the pup and has never met her. Wouldn't let one of my pups go to someone I hadn't met!

>does anyone else believe that this is unethical because in my opinion an Assured Breeder should not be breeding someone elses affix at their premises. Opinions please.

Not commenting on any of the rest of the situation, but 'breeding terms arrangements are often entered into, so that the person appearing on a dogs record as the breeder is not the person who has their bitch in their possession.

Such a bitch is often sold at a reduced rate, or given to the new owner on the proviso they have a litter, which on paper will belong and be listed as bred by the bitches breeder.

This way the person listed as the breeder can maintain control of their bloodlines, have puppies back etc.

and it's not unheard-of for bitches to whelp somewhere other than their home address, for reasons of convenience.

I agree, I've had a couple of dams whelp at my home and reared the pups as I work from home and can be here full time with lots of helpers, sometimes you can have a very reputable breeder who may not be confident and wants their mentor to take charge, or just cannot for various reasons including room, be there full time so others in the breed will help out. :-)

Alison - the fact that neither of the breeders have shown their upset for the dogs owner or the dog is very surprising, not the way that things should be done, as a breeder I know, I would want to know all the ins and outs of what has happened here, including if there is any kind of genetic reason, the fact that there is no interest at all feels so wrong, I would be really upset as I know others on the board would be, and accredited breeder or not, it is not how one behaves.

My sympathies to the owner what a horrible shock and it was no age to lose any dog they must be devastated.

Brainless, Breeder B has 3 bitches, one of which she bred and yet all the girls live permanently at Breeder A's premises. Things are just not adding up for me that things are being done correctly.
Carrington, I agree, no support for a grieving owner who is absolutely devastated.
To me this is not breeding reputably. Just hope that the owner learns to trust another breeder at some point.

My sympathies to the owner who has just lost the puppy.  Devastating. I don't know enough about the  ABS but it sounds like a letter explaining the full situation with copies of all documentation  ie. contract, pedigrees, vet's history,  etc should be sent asap to the KC reporting the situation. Not forgetting to ask for a reply and also remembering to keep a copy of everything.

It may be worth contacting Prof Barry Peachey who has just started a column in Our Dogs.  He is an animal law consultant and expert witness.