So the limited 'no benching' trial held at a couple of the smaller Champ shows has been viewed as a bit of a damp squib in that there was little reduction in entry fees as a result. But is that not missing the point ? ......a huge number of exhibitors now use crates or trollies that cannot fit onto benches leading to them having to set up camp in a cramped designated areas or squeezing in round the ringside whilst vast swathes of space are used up by benching that is hardly used. Doing away with benching is surely not about saving money but about freeing up space to accommodate the equipment that modern day exhibitors now use.

Yvonne

Surely doing away with benching at shows would save a lot of money, and it would be fair to pass on the saving to exhibitors?

After all, no exhibitors, no show ;-)

If you do away with benching you have to provide even more space for exhibitors - because people with crates and trolleys and all the other paraphenalia spread themselves out! More space needed =  more marquees needed (yes, it can rain in the UK!) = more expense.

Well I would not go to an unbenched championship show as I don't want to take all that equipment to shows, as it is I can fit three or four dogs into my hatchback (usually enter two or three at general shows), which I would not be able to do if I had to have crates and trollies.

East of England was a nightmare even though we had our benches, but at least the dog were up off the waterlogged ground and showing resembled swimming.

I take a bag and dogs, that's it.  Also means if needs be I can go with a friend without cluttering up their vehicle, o am able to take someone with us.

It's one reason I do very few open shows.

Also what if the ground is wet or waterlogged, the benches give the dogs somewhere off the ground to rest.

What we do need is god show layouts that have the benches close to the rings.  Southern counties I think is the best, but other shows even with constraints of site mange to do it.

Won't enter Richmond or Windsor anymore due t benches being far from rings and rings surrounded by peoples crated dogs blocking ringside.  Often breeds in before or after us or from adjacent rings.

>If you do away with benching you have to provide even more space for exhibitors

And then you would find the ones with the sharpest elbows or most influence crowding out the less pushy and newbies to gain best positions.

At least with benching your spot is allocated without fear or favour.

Maybe the question should be why do exhibitors not use benches, and what could be done to make them want to use them.


As already said having them close to rings, or larger may make them more attractive.  The return of toy benching??? (I believe they are like the cat/poultry rabbit cages?

>And then you would find the ones with the sharpest elbows or most influence crowding out the less pushy and newbies to gain best positions.

That's been happening for years in some breeds.  

I've arrived at my bench and found it impossible to access for the trolleys, cages and other stuff of the people next to me :(  Others take up any available space they can.

We have a crate, but it fits on the bench and is folded to travel, a small grooming bag (6") and a towel and that's about it apart from OH's food.  The little folding trolley thingy fits at the back of the bench, so no more room taken up than the bench, nothing pokes out at the front.    I pop the dog on top of the crate to groom her,  a rubber mat travels in the bottom of the cage for this purpose.   Can't see the point of bringing a full size grooming table, trolley table etc.  But then I groom before the show, I'm amazed at the number of experienced people who seem to need to scissor endlessly at the show!

At the Welsh KC Show, you often find people surrounding the rings with crates for the dogs.  As it's usually blistering hot, it seems cruel to me to make a dog sit in the heat when they could be in the cool sheds.

Whose bright idea was it to get rid of benching?

I usually enter two dogs ( sometimes three) and need my large show trolley to keep one in whilst I'm showing or preparing the other one, (the top of my trolley also acts as my grooming table) benches do not work for me as the dogs are not secure on them and are generally too far from the ringside for me to keep an eye on them , yes I could take a couple of crates with me to put on the benches to keep the dogs secure but generally I'm showing on my own and the sheer logistics of carrying in two crates, two large dogs, grooming table, show bag, , chairs etc. etc defeats me ! ...and I'm not alone, take a look round most champ shows on working/ pastoral days and you'll see many exhibitors of larger breeds using show trolleys or crates. It's a ridiculous situation at the moment, at Boston all the crates and Trolleys were squeezed onto the ends of the rows of EMPTY benches.

Yvonne

I can see both sides. I'd prefer no benches when I show Papillons as I would like to bring a trolley but I now never do as I really don't fancy having to be at the show several hours before judging, and that's what you have to do if you want a space to park the trolley. But for the Malinois I use the benches unless it is an outdoor summer show and nice weather, in which case I will sit ringside. But I'm lucky in that we are usually 3 people. I would definitely miss benches though for shows like Boston, Birmingham National, WKC, LKA and when it is wet in the summer.

I know it isn't feasible but it is a shame that they can't provide different types of benching. For example in one of my breeds (oes) very few people use the traditional benching apart from at crufts, and if you do then it is ridiculously squashed as everyone tries to set up grooming tables without encroaching over the next bench.  I do take a table, but usually only take one regardless of how many dogs I have entered as  I have to present my dogs in the same way as everyone else if I'm going to have a chance! However, if it were somehow possible to have a type of benching where the base bit was higher, more like a grooming table, with a storage space underneath perhaps we could all get used to using equipment that is provided rather than lugging our own tables etc? In my other breed I always used the benching and found it really useful whereas it just  isn't suitable for all breeds.

>if it were somehow possible to have a type of benching

There you go, benching could be made more user friendly/appropriate/secure.

I am on my own usually with the trio I do not have the time to get to benches and back most of the time my crates fit on my trolley with my table beside it yes I have a table breed, I get to shows early both open and champ for my convenience but it will not be the first time friends have put crates under my table when they have arrived late, my dogs are happier being with me, even hot weather Leeds was baking I was ring side at 7 30 in the morning back and sides of crates covered with a pale cotton cloth parasols over crates cool water in coop cups and cage fans on stand by the tents were hotter than ring side because the slight breeze was not penetrating the walls, dogs were on cotton beds and were happy and chilled out all day while dogs were panting on the benches, and with a small breed entry being in the middle of the field no way could I have changed dogs in time, most local outside shows where it is hot look for the car with the gazebo over the back end of the car you have found me with sunshade covering the front Windows if done correctly it is possible for a car on a hot day to be a lot cooler than outside

So where do you have your trolley?   as surely you have to reach that in the crating area, What we don't want is them ringside, as that already causes problems, so if benches were by rings as they are at some shows there is no issue, and people could use them, but of course if they have already brought all the paraphernalia then I suppose they decide to use it anyway, even when they don't need to..

I to take at least two dogs sometimes three, and hubby is not on hand to help, (usually having a  nap in the car), so benches are vital, but as you say they need to be close to the ring, as we have small entries so little time to change dogs between classes.  Mine are normally in following classes as I only show bitches.

But if the room currently taken up by benching was instead used to site breed rings there would be a huge amount of extra space for trollies and crates round the ringside and the problem would be solved - yes of course those that got there the earliest would be able to choose the best positions but that's not a case of having 'sharp elbows' but of having an effective alarm clock ! . It works on the continent very well so why would it not work here?

The proof that benching no longer works is surely the fact that they are not being used by the majority of exhibitors. They are a relic of the days before crates etc and it's surely time to modernise the show layout to reflect that times have changed.

Yvonne

it might work in the numerically small breeds. but what about breeds where the entries are several hundred? Thats a lot of dogs people and equpment with nowhere organised to go. I can see total chaos round those rings. I am anotherone who usually uses my bench. I like having somewhere covered to keep  my dogs and equipment. I also usually go to shows on my own and need somewhere safe to leave my second or third dogs. I would hate to have to lug 3 crates a chair,  bags and up to 3 dogs from the carpark. Definitely keep benching.

>there would be a huge amount of extra space for trollies and crates round the ringside and the problem would be solved

What size ring would you need to have 300 crates and trollies around it, and still be able to a) reach the ring and b) evacuate the area quickly if there was an emergency?

But New York if you are on your own with 2-3 dogs then how can you leave them on the benches and still have time to swap them over between classes ? It clearly does'nt work for the majority of exhibitors otherwise we would not see rows and rows of empty benches ! . Also leaving benched dogs unattended is against KC regulations yet those of us who usually go to the shows on our own would have to do this.

Benching for 300 dogs already takes up a huge amount of space Jeangenie and most of that benching is standing empty as a significant number of exhibitors already use crates or trollies - in fact the present system is the worst of all worlds as not only do we currently have to find space for benching but we also have to find designated space for crates and trollies or we get the ridiculous situation of exhibitors plonking their trollies in front of their benches thus making the space even more cramped ! . I say free up the space for exhibitors to use the way that works best for them.

Yvonne

>Also leaving benched dogs unattended is against KC regulations

Which regulation is that?

>not only do we have to find space for benching but we also have to find designated space for crates and trollies.

No, we don't have to find spaces for crates and trolleys. Nowhere in the rules does it say they should be brought - exhibitors choose to bring them. I hate to sound like an old fuddy-duddy but when I first started showing dogs back in the 1970s nobody brought along so much equipment; because many people came by public transport you only brought what you could carry. And guess what? Dogs still won their classes, people watched the judging and socialised - in fact far more than they do nowadays!

....and way back show dogs were transported by train in the guards van to their show destination ....most people did not have cars which meant that car parking was not something show committees had to think about providing.
But times change, factoring in huge car parking spaces to accommodate those changes is now the norm.....dog showing has changed and people want to have their dogs close by, protected from other dogs or people in their own secure crates, methods of presentation have also changed which means an increased use of grooming tables for coated breeds, I recently was at an Open show at Wood Green in Huntingdon where in years gone by most exhibitors sat on the tiered rows of seats and held their dogs ....this year those seats were almost completely empty and the place was wall to wall with crates, tables and trollies. We cannot ignore these changes, if show societies are to succeed then they have to respond to them not bury their heads in the sand and pretend what worked back in 1920 will work in 2014 !.

>people want to have their dogs close by, protected from other dogs or people in their own secure crates

Benching is by far a better protector of dogs from others than crates - many times at unbenched shows I've winessed unattended crated dogs being terrified by a dog in a nearby crate; dogs are far more territorial in their own crate/cage than they are on a bench which smells of other dogs. Trying to find a suitable place to put a crate can be impossible; I've given up taking one because of this.

>and way back show dogs were transported by train in the guards van to their show destination

That's why there's the regulation which says that dogs must be accompanied. :-) As you rightly say, gone are the days when dogs would be sent by train and met at the station by show officials, handled in the ring by strangers then despatched back to their owner at the end of the day! I still can't find a regulation that says they must never be unattended. When you need to go to the loo or watch some of the judging, most exhibitors are friendly enough to keep an eye on your benched dog for you till you get back.

I'm coming from the perspective of showing in N.America (mostly Canada) where there is virtually no benching.   But it's only a few shows that were held outside other than in mid-summer, so finding somewhere to put a crate down on dry ground didn't (usually) apply.   We all managed to fit in with our crates and grooming tables without any need for elbows, or fights too!!

If you take away the benches it will get worse around ringside, some rings are bad enough now as it is. All it will do is make more space for people to crowd round the rings, with human nature being as it is, you won't get people spreading out , you will just have more people competing for the nearest spot to the ring.

Personally I prefer benches, it gives you a base, one that you won't get dirty looks for, unlike when you are trying to find a spot to set up, and are made to feel ( sometimes) like you are invading others personal space, which seems to spread out  as far as they can.

>unlike when you are trying to find a spot to set up, and are made to feel ( sometimes) like you are invading others personal space, which seems to spread out  as far as they can.

Sometimes you need the skin of a rhinoceros and absolutely no sensitivity to find a place for a crate. A newbie wouldn't stand a chance and would probably never show again. An allocated bench is a safe haven, a base, and no bolshy rival will try to shove you out of it.

Yep some rings are bad enough now and that's because exhibitors want to use their crates and grooming tables and are forced to squeeze them in where they can . Go to the Beardie / Samoyed/ Sheltie/ Poodle/ Bichon/ OES /  or most of the toy breed rings at any Champ show and you'ld be hard pressed to see any exhibitors using their benches.

Perhaps the answer is for a smaller area set aide for optional benching for those that want it but with the rest of the floor space freed up for exhibitors to use as they need.

Yvonne

P.s in this weeks Dog World there is a photo illustrating an ABS article and demonstrating exactly my point  -  the dog is up on it's grooming table in front of a row of EMPTY benches !

>It works on the continent very well so why would it not work here?

Purely numbers.

>The proof that benching no longer works is surely the fact that they are not being used by the majority of exhibitors.

Certainly all our exhibitors (numerically small breed) use their benches and so do most of the breeds we are benched near.

>then how can you leave them on the benches and still have time to swap them over between classes ?

That's where shows need top rethink their layouts like some of the best already do and have benches close to rings.  Dogs should be able to cope with being left on benches as well as in crates, after all they have to be left while your in the ring with the other dogs.

>The proof that benching no longer works is surely the fact that they are not being used by the majority of exhibitors.


I am not sure that's  accurate ,  plenty of breeds use their benches, I agree a lot of breeds don't use benches, but many do.

I guess it's a situation of not pleasing some of the people some of the time....

I think benches provide  designated areas , if none it's a free for all,

I don't think crates should be allowed ring side, one show I went to you had to fight past a crowd of crates to get in the ring as the breed in after had set up around it and not even left a space for people to get in. Also you then have the dogs who then go nuts as you try to pass to get in the ring which is not what your dog needs just as its about to go in. Then I've had balls of fur rolling threw the ring while I was showing from people grooming next to it.
One person I know at an open show her dog was walking fine untill they passed a crate by the ring and the dog inside went nuts and spooked their dog who then wouldn't walk propperly after that.

Maby if they cut the number of benches and arranged them better so they were close to the breeds ring and used the extra space made for crates, so people can set up crates in the craiting areas near the ring but not around it.
So when u entre the show and can tick a box to say if you want a bench or craiting area.

Having been to a few shows abroad, such as world shows, with no benching, I really did not like it. What little space there was set aside for cages etc was filled up first thing and no way did I want to stick a cage in the middle of all that. It was very messy and untidy and you almost had to fall over the cages in order to move around. There was also nowhere to put your chairs.  I have also here at championship shows many times witnessed people walk past with male dogs who proceed to cock their legs up the nearest cage -not nice for the dog inside it. But then I have also seen cages fall off benches with a dog inside, I have seen dogs on a benching chain get off the bench and almost strangle themselves, and dogs barking and snapping at dogs walking past the benches, whether inside a cage or not. The best shows are always the breed shows with lots and lots of space for cages, but not even all breed shows are like that -the Belgian ones are but they are the only ones I have been to that DO have the necessary space. The general champshows just haven't enough space.

I do wonder though if 50/50 would work. Let the exhibitor state on the entry whether they want a bench or a cage space, and simply remove half of the benches. But then we are back again to it not necessarily being close to the ring.

Personally I think if crate/ cage areas are to be set up, then they should be as far away from ring side as possible' ( along the perimeter /wall), this way they won't get in anyone's way or cause gridlocks around the ring.

I gave showing a good try when I got my first KC Reg BC (always had farm bred dogs until then) She did quite well and we even got a trophy for best merle in show. But I didn't enjoy doing it. I found it quite boring. But what put me off more than anything was the cages round the rings. You could get close enough to see what was going on because of the chaotic mess of cages. Running the gauntlet of snapping dogs to get into the ring was harrowing and because I was a newby I ended up almost outside in the carpark. Nowadays I would probably have bullied my way a bit closer but I just felt out of it. There are so few shows up here in the North of Scotland and it involves travelling so far that I just didn't feel it was worth the effort involved just to be miserable. So we play at a bit of agility and I enjoy my dogs at home.

A very good example how not to attract new exhibitors which is what is killing our sport.

It could be a bit of a zoo without benching, overseas, but for sure, crates were not alongside the rings.   They were often, indoors, in a completely other room.   So there was no problem with sitting, or viewing alongside the rings.

>They were often, indoors, in a completely other room.

So no different to benches being some distance from the ring then, which is what people tend to grumble about. What seems to be being demanded is for everyone to be able to have all their paraphenalia at the ringside at all times. It's a logistical non-starter.

What seems to be being demanded is for everyone to be able to have all their paraphenalia at the ringside at all times

And what paraphernalia!

I must admit to being totally gobsmacked at the amount of grooming equipment some people take!  

Whole rolls of scissors , some as many as 20!   several combs and brushes.    Various sprays and other 'products'  !

And the poor dog groomed over and over (and over again) before going in the ring.

What happened to preparing the dog in the days running up to the shows?

Even in our breed, which whilst a coated breed,  is also allowed 'working scars'  etc.   There are those who will have their dog on the grooming table for most of the show!

You are right Jeangenie , although bear in mind entries, at a normal Champ Show out there were far lower than here in the UK.   Specialty shows apart.

It did mean however, crated, your dog was usually far safer than being on a bench (and not crated).   Sometimes with the actual time we'd be at a show (unless if we won BP or BOB, in which case we'd be there all day, for Group judging), we'd operate out of our car, just going in with our entry when breed judging started.   We could be in and out in an hour or two sometimes, often travelling for longer than actually showing.