I have a bitch on day 68. All seemed well puppies lively everything progressing ok. Then we went over. On day 66 rang vet explained that I couldn't feel movement, no mucus discharge temperature down to 37.5 ,  and was told not to worry until day 72. Same story today. Thing is there is only about 3 pups so my mind is thinking all sorts. Can feel the pups but no movement at all. The vet seems unconcerned. Temperature gone up a bit, so could it be peaking. The last 3 nights she has been restless, digging, cleaning herself but after about an hour nothing. Should I insist the vet sees her? Advice please. Never had one go late before.

I would be insisting on seeing the vet immediately, and having them listen to see if there are heartbeats, checking if dilation has started at all, possibly x-rays to see if the pups are too big to pass naturally. Day 72 seems insanely late to me!

agree i would insist an investigation to see if there is a problem

a premate progesterone test kit would show if her hormone levels are below that of ovulation which should signal that whelping should have started/is overdue.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2109&aid=3201
"About 48 hours before whelping, the progesterone level drops to the 2 ng/ml range and within about 24 hours of whelping, the level drops to the 1 ng/ml range. This can help determine the proper timing of a c-section, especially if the progesterone level or LH level were not used to determine the ovulation date....."

We mated at day 15. My male was very keen so took her to the stud dog. Im not so worried about her going over as I know this can happen, but as this is a small litter I am concerned that there isnt enough hormone to start labour. Also lack of movement after being so active. I think I will ring a different vet in the area tomorrow.

going over if she has inertia due to lack of hormones could mean pups have died so I would not be happy letting her go this far over unless I was sure she didn't' take until well after mating.

I had a bitch whelp day 67, but when she was palpated at 28 day the vet told me she was not as far on as that, probably only about day 23, so I didn't worry with her going over.

In my breed many of the males will not mate a bitch until she is good and ready even if she is standing so we usually have them whelp before day 63.

So unless going over is pretty usual in your bred I would not be accepting the vet saying wait, especially as very few vets are expert in breeding matters..

>> So unless going over is pretty usual in your bred I would not be accepting the vet saying wait, especially as very few vets are expert in breeding matters..

I seem to remember a thread on here not so long ago where a vet refused to do anything when the bitch went over due and all the pups died. That was a small litter too. I definitely would be demanding some action. my dogs have never gone past day 62 and have been as early as day 59.

If a bitch is over her dates and there is concern demand progesterones. It's a simple blood test but the results are science fact it can ensure if section is needed it is done at optimum time to prevent risk to pups and dam. GP vets may not be that familiar with this system but point them to google and it's all there to see.

You are the client, your bitch , your bill. If the bitch is just fine and bloods demonstrate no cause for concern it's win win.. Customer reassured and vet better off !

k

This is one reason I keep a stethoscope.     You can hear the heartbeats after week 7, sometimes week 8 depending on how big the bitch is, and where the pups are.   It also gives a rough guide of how many.     If you have a stethoscope, you can still listen for heartbeats now.

Personally, I would be most worried about lack of movement,  if you have felt movements before, then you should be still feeling it.

Have seen this happen with my bro's bitch.   A weim so should have had a large litter, but there was only one.   She went over dates and vet wasn't worried.   Bro was, so I told  him to follow his instinct.      Long story short, they almost lost the bitch, the pup had died, but she would never have whelped it as her womb wasn't right.

Not sayimg that this will happen to you, but just that if your instinct is that something is wrong, then you should follow it.  You know your bitch.

Either ask to see a different vet or go to a different practise.   Either way,  do what you think is right.   Your bitch,and pups, and your money.

Hope everything is ok and you're worried about nothing.

Thanks everyone will.keep you posted.

I seem to remember a thread on here not so long ago where a vet refused to do anything when the bitch went over due and all the pups died. That was a small litter too.

Yes -that was my thread, not a bitch I own but one of my breeding. C-section carried out day 69. Owner extremely upset with their vet, they had gone to the vet several times asking for help knowing the bitch was overdue and this vet too kept saying they can go 72 days -in another universe perhaps!!

I would be spitting feathers by now, and seriously worried about losing my bitch due to inertia. Your vet is so very wrong in insisting that you wait.  If it was my vet, I would have told him is fortune by now!

Yes, I have a breed that usually whelps on day 56, but the majority of decent breeders could run rings round the vets when it comes to whelping knowledge.  I hope you phone back and get insistent with him.  (Or change vet pronto.)

My friend was told to wait and when she got to day 70 I pushed her to go to the vet again and on day 71 she had a caesarean and delivered 1 live pup. There was just nothing happening to get her moving. I was concerned for both the pup and the bitch as thought she had probably lost any puppies and admit I was staggered it was left too late. As it happens, apart from a large bill al ended well - much to my amazement. They only got one slipped mating.

Thanks JeanSW for seeing me as not a decent breeder. This is not my usual breed having downsized. My experience is with my larger dogs and larger litters. I only breeder once every two years and only when I need to show. As this is something I have never experienced I am guided by a professional.  Its only because I find this odd that I Have asked o  here. My usual vet has moved branch. As I have said everything has been normal until 65 days. Thats when I contacted the vets and reassured all is okay. I have been kindly recommended another vet in my area so will be in contact today.

I would be concerned, and want a vet check immediately, if you haven't felt the pups moving for a while. I've had a litter born naturally on day 68/70 but they were very active right up until the last couple of hours.

Certainly have her xrayed - to see how many and how big she is.  Would be awful if she lost them now.

Unfortunately some vets see a canine pregnancy as just another accident like we've let our dog mate in the street.

Getting a good relationship with a different vet, one who appreciates just how precious and unique your litter is TO YOU -his client...is vital.

In my boxer litters I wouldn't be unduly concerned by an overdue litter but would never allow it in my Cavaliers.

I agree, for the future, consider getting a stethoscope to monitor your litters for your peace of mind.

Appointment booked for this.afternoon. First one in so no hanging around in the waiting room. Had to insist on it though. Rang other vet but he is 34 miles away so decided ti get firm with th tjem.

Thanks JeanSW for seeing me as not a decent breeder.

At NO point did Jean even hint at YOU being at fault here, she was making it clear it was your VET that is in the wrong.

Yes stethospcope on order. My friend has ordered me one as she is a doctor. Vet appointment first thing this afternoon

Information on listening for foetal heartbeats here ;-)

http://www.debbiejensen.com/signs_of_pregnant.html

Good luck with the appointment, hope all is well, but be assertive ;-)   

It may be useful pointing out how this litter is a planned, HEALTH TESTED litter, and telling the vet how much you have paid in health testing and what tests have been done - eg. Heart testing by CARDIOLOGIST, eye specialist exams, DNA tests etc. ;)   So he's in absolutely no doubt you aren't a BYB  ;-)

Many vets are still ignorant of what health tests are needed for the different breeds, and how responsible breeders differ from the BYBs ;)

Hoping for a good outcome for you.

>Thanks JeanSW for seeing me as not a decent breeder.

Where the hell did that come from?

   

You said something about most decent breeders... - just misinterpreted, I think the OP is probably so worried about her dog she will be taking anything like that very much to heart as a criticism rather than in the way it was intended.

With my Bassets, if nothing had started by about 3 days over, max., I'd be off to the vet.    My litters would often go 'quiet' towards the time they were ready to whelp - I used to think it was gathering strength for the journey but it was more likely just them getting organised and in position to come through.   With small litters, there is every chance that they just sit, growing bigger by the day - so on that basis alone, I'd take mine into my vet for an examination, possibly x-ray and a shot to get things moving.   And if none of that worked, assuming there were puppies there, a C.Section would have to be done.

I'd not be satisfied by a vet telling me, in effect, to push off!!

I hope by now, this situation has moved on a pace, and you have a lovely litter there.   And mum is okay.

>Thanks JeanSW for seeing me as not a decent breeder.

You have totally misunderstood JeanSW with her comment.  What she meant is any decent breeder has more breeding knowledge than the average GP vet who isn't a breeder, and that your breed mentors would have advised you as to what is usual in your breed and your bitch line, as to whether you needed to worry by now.

In 2012 I had a bitch with a very distended pregnancy fail to move on with labour after the first puppy, but the stand in vet would not allow Oxytocin for three hours when I knew that that bitch never went that long between whelps having always had no longer than half hour between live pups in her previous two litters.

Result was after two more pups we had three perfectly formed large stillborn pups, after that some more live and then had a retained puppy for over a day and a half as the vet said the contractions were just the womb shrinking down and the extra straining when being was the pressure on the bladder, then the poor bitch finally delivered a very large mangled pup.

Hi update, not good news. The puppie appeared to have died. By the size before day 63. Mum doing okay very lucky no infection. I knew I was right to have pushed for further investigation. At least my girl is okay xxx gutted but happy I still have her. Thanks for the advice.

Ah so sorry to hear this, glad your girl is ok and has no infection though x

Sad outcome but your gut told you to investigate and get help.
Often how we learn in this hobby, the HARD way

So sorry to hear that but at least thanks to you insisting on seeing the vet, you still have your girl. I'm shocked at how many stories I read on these forums of vets making people wait when something should be done!

First of all Sorry to the OP  for the loss of your pup. 

Does anyone know why the vets are so reluctant to do something?I have heard of several stories of pups dying because vets wouldn't do anything for an overdue bitch. You would think they would like a nice big caesarean fee.

Just out of interest what happens when the pups die because the vet doesn't act? can you ask the vet for compensation? Not that money will compensate for the little lives lost but there are many expenses lost too such as the stud fee and the loss of the puppy sales which with a large littler could amount to a sizeable sum. Would you still have to pay for a caesarean? I think I would be very reluctant to pay a vet for giving me such bad advice

Unfortuantely vets mostkly only know what theyn have read about canine pregnancy and that says that live pups can be vborn from 56 days after mating to 70 days post whelping.

I assume the latter figure is the assumption that the bitch was mated a week before fertilisation, but in my experience few bitches will stand that early and even if they do most experienced stud dogs won't mate a bitch that early.

it may not be the case with accidental litters as much as planned ones when people may have done progesterone testing etc, so that timing more likely to be accu5rate for time of mating coinciding with peak fertility.

With progesterone testing it ahs been shown that the canine pregnancy shows little variation and that bitches reliably whelp 62 days +/- a day from ovulation.

So those males who won't mate a bitch until she's really ripe, or bitches that will only stand for a day appear to whelp early by 2 or three days.

I don't progesterone test and prefer several matings until either dog or bitch says they are done and then would be anxious if a bitch had gone past 63 days from last mating.

So sorry. Dreadfully sad to hear yet another story like this. :(

Does anyone know why the vets are so reluctant to do something?I have heard of several stories of pups dying because vets wouldn't do anything for an overdue bitch. You would think they would like a nice big caesarean fee.

Just out of interest what happens when the pups die because the vet doesn't act? can you ask the vet for compensation?

In the case of my puppy buyer (i.e. the bitch owner) his vet said they get complaints if they wants to do a section too soon -maybe it is yet another action backfiring after PDE. What with the KC now wanting caesareans reported. (I do think that is right, but I also think it is unworkable.) I doubt anyone would get far with claiming compensation (nobody ever does with vets), my buyer was going to dispute the bill (after all, no pups AND a big bill on top) but I haven't heard what the outcome was.

>I don't progesterone test and prefer several matings until either dog or bitch says they are done

Same here.  If an experienced stud dog sniffs and walks away, he's usually right!

Thank you all for you kind words and support today. Im still in shock.  And my apologies to JeanSW for misinterpreting your comment, I was a little tired and stressed this morning. Although the vet was wrong not to listen on Saturday it would not saved the pups they unfortunately passed before due date, they were very tiny. I still am very cross in them not listening to me and the fact I had to insist on a scan. Thankfully apart from a confused girl, she is well one.x

Just to say we had a bitch, an imported but UK Champion who had been mated to a visiting Champion from another country.   She needed a C.Section which was delayed (long story) on the part of the attending vet.  I'd got her in in plenty of time - he thought he knew better.   By the time the needed Section was performed, only 4 of the 9 puppies survived.   She could never be bred from again either (although in truth, having had a C.Section that was it in any case).   The sire had gone back to his country of birth.  During a subsequent spay, with another vet practice, it was found that one side of her uterus was shot - she would never have even carried another litter.

We sued because it WAS malpractice, but we were persuaded to settle out of Court, which was probably as well because realistically how do you quantify the cost of the lost puppies (who could have been anything, apart from their sale cost as pets) and her from a breeding programme in any case, even if the 4 survivors (not pick!!) were excellent puppies with significant wins in the ring.  I just hope his insurance went through the roof.   He later retired actually.

They didn't charge for the C.Section - and I'd not have paid them in any case!!!

We sued because it WAS malpractice,

Good on you!

It helped, no end, to have Mike Stockman on our side at the time.   Otherwise the solicitor we used wouldn't have had the faintest!!

It's a simple blood test but the results are science fact it can ensure if section is needed it is done at optimum time to prevent risk to pups and dam.

Is this test normally done in house or sent off? Wondering because I am planning ahead to play safe and my bitch will be on 63 days on a Friday so if nothing has happened then I'd want her seen on the Saturday, to enable me to avoid having to use the out of hours vets rather than my own vet. But if the blood has to be sent off, problem!

Is this test normally done in house or sent off?

It's the simple in house test which should only take about ten minutes. However when I believe I might have a reason to suspect a whelping problem with a bitch (e.g. a singleton puppy) I would start testing three or four days before the due whelping date to be able to watch the progesterone level falling and to know exactly when the final drop occurred, therefore knowing exactly how many hours to wait before becoming concerned.

A serum progesterone via external lab will be more accurate with reading of 5ng delivery in 24 hrs and 2 ng or less should be in active labour. If your practice can't get result back same day the pre mate test kits can be used with NOT ready / baseline reading  ( sub ovulation reading ) indicating your bitch should deliver in 24 hrs max.

http://www.equitainer.com/Canine/Target-Canine.htm

Personally I would do a lab test on Friday if possible

Thank you very much both of you! I have never had a problem with this breed whelping in any way, but my pregnant bitch is the litter sister of the one who went overdue and whose vet would not do a thing until it was too late, so this is why I am worrying and preparing for all eventualities.

Hi I'm  new here , my girl had emergency c-section only one pup which unfortunately died. It was a big pup. I was in constant contact with my veterinary practice before. When she went one day over I rang my vet's and spoke to veterinary nurse, who I know and she said if she was happy and eating to let nature take it's course. Day ,65,68,69 I rang again and on advice from vet to let nature take it's course. Day 70 and I noticed Ruby was losing green discharge. I knew straight away something was wrong. When i took her to vet he told me she should never had gone to 70 day's and I felt he was blaming me.  I have been with this vet's for over 30 year's and trusted the advice I was being given. How can two different vet's from the same practice give different advice. I'm thinking of complaining and possibly asking for compensation as I feel thing's could have been different and a earlier c-section would have resulted in a live pup. I could have lost Ruby and she is my life. I had been visiting champdog's through her pregnancy and many breeder's were saying they shouldn't go over due date other's saying their bitch's had gone 70 day's and whelped perfectly fine. So much conflicting advice but I wish I had listened to the majority of breeder's who were saying they shouldn't go any more than 63 to 65 day's over.

On the other hand, I took my girl to the vets on day 65 as she always delivered early. I did say that I didn't want intervention unless she was fully open. The vet said we needed to get the puppies out so she had a section. We lost all 6 puppies over the next 5 days as they were too early.