Just after some experiences/suggestions, really.  Paige has had an odd gait for a long time now - not a year I don't think but early summer last year at least.  She saw a McTim chiro last year (ongoing from a previous problem) who said her back felt 'like concrete' - first treatment helped immensely, follow up did nothing.

I took her to the vet last fall, she had two weeks of careful exercise and rimadyl; he said if it helped but the pain returned once off the rimadyl (two weeks 100mg/day, one week 50mg) we would x-ray.

X-rays showed nothing wrong with her back at all, and just a teeny tiny touch of HD in her left hip - but not enough to cause the level of pain or change in gait.  But nothing else to go on, so I was to carry on with the restricted exercise and rimadyl.

Fast forward - neither have helped this time around.  The gait - when she walks, as she pushes off her back left foot she twists her leg so the knee goes in towards her other knee, and there's a little lift too. I took her back in a couple of weeks ago, explained/demonstrated the gait again and this time he examined her knee - pain and he said it feels swollen.  He suspects cruciate damage.  But - same thing - just carry on with the restricted exercise.

Now, I'm not happy at this point - he's not given me any detail about how I should be doing the exercise; I think at one point before he just said not to let her go really mad so she's been walked with my older crew.  Off lead sometimes, but with them she doesn't go mad, no hard running etc.  He's not mentioned further x-rays or surgery/physio/anything really, so (yet again) here I find myself researching!  She is now strictly on lead for walks, now he's mentioned cruciate - despite me talking about her gait last time he didn't examine her knee at all so she has been off lead, but not with the younger dogs so she won't charge around like a loon.  Trotting and sniffing for the most part.

She doesn't seem to be in massive pain with it generally - she can still run, flat out with no problems (I avoid her doing this wherever possible of course but she does get the slip on me on the way out into the garden occasionally and charges down the end, bliddy dog!), and the wonky gait hasn't gotten any worse.  She's not on conventional drugs atm, as the rimadyl isn't making any difference now - she gets turmeric (which does make a fair difference, I certainly notice it if she doesn't get it but that might be the HD, or arthritis from elsewhere - she's a bit wonky from abuse as a pup and dislocated a toe a couple of years back) and DLPA.  There has been a little improvement in that when she wees, she quivers as it's hurting her but that has lessened a bit (that's since going on the DLPA).

I guess I'm just trying to work out what the best path is from here.  I have a rehab centre near me who I trust, River has been there many times for her disc and Remy will be going soon for the same but I'm trying to figure if it's worth doing more x-rays etc.

Oh, Paige is a dobermann but a small one - 25" and 25kg.  Very lean frame.

I guess you'll need X-rays to find out if it is cruciate and if it is a full or partial tear. Then you could ask at the rehab about water treadmill as this is good for leg problems and will build up muscle.
If its not one thing it's another isn't it, good luck!

X-ray or even MRI. Dylan's problem was thought to be a back issue, turned out to be cruciate. Flash's issue (hopping when trotting, no other physical signs at all) was thought to be nothing, turned out to be degenerative disc disease. In both cases, only the MRI showed the real problem up, x-rays weren't even inconclusive, but showed no abnormalities at all...

You have tried pretty much everything already, I think it's time to investigate more. Cruciate or luxating patella, though I expect she has been checked for the latter? I would ask for deeper investigations now.

He didn't check specifically for LP I don't think, but did a very thorough manipulation of the knee, and said straight away that he could feel thickening that might indicate a cruciate problem.  I'm still miffed that he didn't do this the first time round.

I'm wondering if it's worth going straight to the MRI - she's got enough cover for it, any surgery would have to hold on til June though for renewal (only £2k per year).  When he's examined her back - again, very thoroughly - he found no hint of pain there at all, or in her hip before the x-ray found the HD as far as I can recall but her knee was definitely painful.

I'm going to give him a ring tomorrow, he was in surgery today.  I think it's time for a referral at least.

I don't trust just manual manipulation anymore really. Manual manipulation by two primary and one referral vet (Noel Fitzpatrick no-less) couldn't detect Dylan's cruciate problem (they all thought it was a back problem as that's where he indicated pain), only MRI did. With Flash, neither manual manipulation nor x-rays by primary vet found anything at all, though Fitzpatrick suspected back problem and MRI confirmed. I'd go for an MRI.

I've left a message for the vet saying I want to take the investigations to the next step whether that be an x-ray or referral or whatever.

I'm hoping against hope it *isn't* her cruciate at the moment - research is telling me that dogs in general over 15kg do not do well with conservative management alone for even a partial tear, never mind a very active, boingy 15kg dobe, but at the same time, depending on the type of surgery it could be £2.5k and up - her cover is £2k a year and I have no way to top that up.  But, one step at a time.

Finally had a response today - well, two.  First was a message from him saying he wanted to clarify what it was I wanted investigating - cue me getting really irritated because I only saw him with her a couple of weeks ago, and it's not a new problem.  Sigh.

I've just spoken to the vet nurse for the second time, Paige is now booked in for Tuesday to see him.  He wants to see her again to establish exactly what needs the further investigation and whether it requires x-ray, MRI or what.  I am a little more irritated at this too really as again, he only saw her a couple of weeks ago and thoroughly examined her knee but, if this is what it takes, so be it.  It's progress, anyhoo.

Saw the vet today.  May as well have been a first appointment as he spoke like he'd not seen her before for this.  Arg!  Still, all done and he's organising a referral for her.  Phew :-)

Quick update - no cruciate damage :-)  Instead, protruding disc but mild, and going downwards so not pressing up on nerve roots.  It's the last disc in her spine before the fused vertebrae in her pelvis.  It has bone growth over the underside too - very unusual apparently (it's in one of my dogs, of course it's going to be unusual, we don't do normal problems!).  But looks stable.  Her knee isn't normal either - deformities over the old growth plates, which fits with the abuse she suffered as a pup before she was rehomed at 9 months.  So looks to be a combination of the two problems causing the pain.  She's on rest and metacam for a couple of weeks then we're back for a checkup, and she's not allowed to go off lead, run, play or jump, so no furniture.  ARG!

Work on Remy's understairs pen must now be stepped up - the idea behind that is to get him totally separate from Linc for one thing (they bark at each other for fun a lot when I'm out, even with Remy in his cage), and to give him more room when I'm not here as I can't leave him loose in the lounge (Linc for one, plays with Willow for another and because of *his* disc problem he's not allowed to run, jump or play either) or kitchen (plays with River, who also has a disc problem so again, cannot run jump or play!), and I can't leave him loose in the hall because it winds Phoebe up (she lives upstairs behind a gate but if there are dogs in the hallway when I come home she gets agitated and barks her head off).  But, thank dog, the one thing I *can* do is leave Remy and Paige together!  So they can both go in the pen, so I must get that done asap.  It works out well really - they both want big squishy bedding they can nest in, both feel the cold so I can insulate it for both and they don't mind sharing space :-)

>It has bone growth over the underside too - very unusual apparently

I was told that form of spondylosis is surprisingly common; most dogs start to develop it at about 10 years and it's usually only detected if they're x-rayed for something unrelated. Some researchers believe that every dog will develop it if they live long enough. I know Piglet has had it for at least three years.