Never ever had a problem with my sheltie but today, Boxing Day, with family staying, we took four dogs for a good run for an hour or so. When putting my sheltie back on her lead I noticed she was limping on her back left leg.  That was lunch time and now evening and she is not putting any weight on it at all, hopping on three legs.  I will take her to the vet tomorrow of course but can't imagine what has happened.  She was as usual chasing her ball with the throw stick but that is what she always does.  The lower leg does look a bit  swollen and feels slightly warm.
Anyone any ideas?  She is used to chasing balls etc and is the most lively of all my dogs so i wonder if she has twisted or sprained her leg.

Hope you all had a good Christmas and I wish you and your dogs a Happy New Year.

Snowflake

How old is she? Does she often go out with other dogs for an hour or so or is this more exertion than she is used to? Only things I can think is that either she's sprained it or something as you say or maybe cruciate ligament, but I feel like you probably would have noticed if she had done her cruciate as I believe it's quite sudden? Could be wrong.

Hope she improves with a nights sleep!

Jess

I had thought a torn crusciate was quite sudden until my last retriever had one. It sort of crept up on us and the vet initially thought it was a strain. When all failed and she was xrayed, guess what! OP done a few days later.

Still lame today I am afraid so it is off to vets.  Not open until 8.3- though.

Good luck at the vets, let us know how she does :)

Ball chasing is a sod for causing injuries, no matter how used to it they are - Rai ripped a dewclaw as she caught up to her ball once, and Phoebe has hurt her legs a few times.  This week she's hurt her foot on the very first throw so I'm calling time on it now, it's just not worth it for a lively collie!

Well Nikita I am beginning to think you are right.  It is some time since we have been to the park which is the only suitable place around here to do the throw stick game so I think she must have been a bit out condition - she was certainly going for it though.

The vet examined her leg and hips thoroughly but is cautiously treating it as a strain at the moment.  He has given her an injection and tomorrow we have to start on a course of doggy type Ibuprofin for 5 days.  If there is no improvement I have to take her back and she will see the orthopaedic specialist at the practice.  He did mention the cruciate ligament although I am hoping it won't come to that.  Fortunately I have a puppy pen so she is comfortably in her bed in the pen  and  is to have small lead walks only at the moment.

I have looked out her insurance policy but am keeping my fingers crossed we won't  need it .........

> the throw stick game

Can  I just point out that although many dogs love fetching sticks they are notorious for causing injuries. My friend lost a dog when she ran onto the stick which had stuck into the ground. The dog ran onto the stick and it pierced the back of her throat. She died of blood loss before my friend could get her to the vet :(

My own labrador had to have surgery to remove a 2-inch splinter from the back of her throat after slipping when fetching a stick.:-( We've never played that game since.

> to remove a 2-inch splinter from the back of her throat

When Tara was a puppy she was carrying a stick when the end caught on the ground as she walked and the stick cut the roof of her mouth, fortunately not needing medical attention - never allowed her to play with sticks after that. Tara also broke a toe (eventually leading to her losing the toe and nearly her leg) just running into long grass chasing a ball - some accidents are just that - dogs would have a very boring life if we stopped all activity that might cause an accident :) :)

>dogs would have a very boring life if we stopped all activity that might cause an accident

Yes, but it's down to us to be aware of and accept the risks, deciding which we think are worth risking (throwing a ball into long grass) or not (throwing a ball on a slippery riverbank after a period of heavy rain).

> Yes, but it's down to us to be aware of and accept the risks

Agreed :)

Would never throw sticks, but I think the OP is referring to a ball chucker as a throw stick in this case.

Yes it is one of those plastic throwers with which you throw the ball.  (Known I think as a "throw stick".)  I too agree that running after sticks is dangerous.  My sheltie is obsessed with chasing balls but not interested in the least in sticks!  She,  being a sheltie,  gets very excited over chasing  balls and I wonder if she caught her foot in a  hole maybe and twisted her leg.  The ground of course was heavy and muddy too. Still we can't  stop them from having normal doggy fun.

She is in her pen and seems tired but I expect that is the effect of the injection.

>Yes it is one of those plastic throwers with which you throw the ball.  (Known I think as a "throw stick".)

I think they're known as 'ball chucker'. ;-) At least that's what you get when you google it. 'Throw stick' brings totally different results.

When my dog ruptured her cruciate the first question the vet asked was if I throw things for her ( which I never have and never would,) Chasing after thrown objects is the prime cause of cruciate injury apparently, however much the dog enjoys it.  Not worth the risk in my opinion as the recovery period is months after cruciate surgery and there could be a permanent weakness.

> Chasing after thrown objects is the prime cause of cruciate injury apparently, however much the dog enjoys it

That wouldn't stop me throwing things for my dogs. My younger dog will only run if she is chasing something and walking alone just doesn't give her enough exercise. Both my dogs love retrieving balls - I can't see that this is any worse than herding which they are 'designed' to do.

the thing is when herding they will run steadily, ball chasing they will go 100miles per hour then slam the brakes on and twist and tun much more suddenly than they every would when working naturally. That said, it depends on the dog, I have one dog who if she is chasing a ball on her own will run after it then slow down and pick it up, the others will dive into to ball at full speed and do somersaults! After a few nasty moments when they came back limping or yelped I'm much more careful, especially on wet or uneven ground.

If you can then dropping a toy and sending them back to fetch it is good exercise and  far safer than having them racing about leaping to catch. Also encourages them to use their brain and nose more than just running.
xx

> If you can then dropping a toy and sending them back to fetch it is good exercise and  far safer than having them racing about leaping to catch. Also encourages them

> to use their brain and nose more than just running

My dogs have always done other things as well (at least when they were younger, they're OAPs now). I'm not convinced, I'm afraid, that retrieving is bad for them - at least, mine don't twist when they leap (the older one is 15 so doesn't do much leaping these days). Each to their own, of course, and different breeds/dogs require different forms of exercise and each owner has to assess their own approach to risk as well :)

My last retriever tore her crusciate when she was 8 years. The one thing I was warned about was letting her off the lead when she was better. Once we were past the resting period after the op, she was taken for controlled walks on the lead, gradually getting longer as her fitness improved and her muscles began to repair. She also went to hydrotherapy in order to strengthen her muscles. One day I knew that I was going to have to unclip her lead and let her run loose. It's that first burst of 'I'm free' that you need to be careful with. I used to walk her about half a mile through the fields before finally letting her go and she wasn't quite so full of of beans.
I've no idea how she got the injury as she wasn't one for chasing balls or sticks and just tended to trot and run about when out nothing madly strenuous.

> I've no idea how she got the injury as she wasn't one for chasing balls or sticks

Humans tear their cruciate ligaments too doing such things as playing tennis, athletics, football etc. Would we ever not do exercise just in case ......... ? :) :) :)

Quite.
I think you can take reasonable precautions, but I would rather my dogs ran round enjoying themselves then being kept on a lead just in case.

I agree with agilabs-- it's the sudden take off and sudden stops when chasing balls, especially long distance ones like the throwing whanger things, that are dangerous. My dogs run free a lot-playing with other dogs is fine, as is galloping about in an open space, which they do a lot, so I am certainly not against free running exercise and fun, but I never throw balls, except sort of bouncing them around my feet, and playing.
I did know someone whose dog tore her cruciate when she suddenly took off after a hare, which is exactly the same kind of thing, so it is never possible to avoid all accidents. I prefer to not go looking for them though.

Exactly.  A dog walking friend from the park nearly lost her dog after throwing a ball for him from a chuckit - he hit the brakes to grab the ball at the end of the chase, faceplanted the grass and flipped over, rupturing a disc in his back.  He screamed and was paralysed instantly.  He can walk again now and even run sometimes, but not well at all, and it took months of physio and hydrotherapy to achieve.

As you say, we can't always avoid all risks - I've heard of several incidents of dogs dying when they've run into things chasing animals (usually greyhounds) and I think one of a dog breaking their neck on a tree chasing a ball that bounced wild but we can reduce it, certainly with something that is known to carry a high risk.  Phoebe is what I would consider lower risk for me using a chuckit - she never grabs the ball, and always lets it bounce once to give herself time to get ahead of it and be waiting to catch it but it's the sudden increase in speed when she's moving away from me when I'm doing the next throw that is what I think keeps hurting her.

Oh dear
All those dogs  mentioned have been doing "normal" dog stuff when accidents have happened.  My sheltie is five years old and has been chasing balls all that time with no bad effect.

Today I think she is a bit better still in the pen but dabbing her bad leg on the ground when I have taken her out for wees.

Fingers crossed

Interesting what you say about the ball chuckers, if I do throw balls (havn't for ages, our ground is all pot holes from livestock) I prefer to use a chucker because if I throw it by hand they can nearly always outrun my girly throws and be racing underneath it, not looking where they are going and leaping up to try and snatch it out of the air. If I use a chucker then it has landed and they know where it is so can adjust their speed accordingly. or most would do if they had any sense! one of my dogs will cheerfully run full tilt into a wall if chasing a ball thats moving. My dogs are labs and possibly that makes a difference, a 32kg lab running full tilt can get a good 5 foot slide on wet ground and take all the other dogs legs out with force at the same time!  possibly a 17 kg collie is less of a missile.

Also I think it depends how fit our dogs our, I strongly suspect that a lot of the reported injuries come from taking underfit pet dogs out for a walk and once a month or so expecting them to hurtle after toys without any warm up. a well muscled dog that is properly warmed up is much less likely to get injured IMO. I do agility and taking an unfit dog from a standing start around a full height course I would consider selfishly thoughtless but it's very easy to forget that pet dogs are mostly not especially fit and we think they can do anything we ask.

To the OP, I wasn't meaning to accuse you of anything, just adding to the wider topic of ball throwing :-)  As I say, I have done it myself happily and love seeing an active dog moving fast and happily, I just had a few scares with sprains etc and don't think its worth it for me.

Hi All

I don't think I will be using the chuckit thing again as my sheltie is one of those that will leap in the air to get the ball and goes at 100 miles an hour.  Where I live there are so many farmers' fields which mean my 3 dogs have to be on lead a lot.  The heath where I took them that day is maybe a weekly treat - it is the only place I can trust them off lead.  They are perhaps not as fit as they should be although the sheltie does a lot of obedience training and practice.

Her leg is not much better and she in still on box rest.  She is still very lame and I will have to take her back to the vets after the New Year I think. She is still on the course of anti inflammatory tabs.  Can anyone who has experienced it describe to me the symptoms of a cruciate ligament injury?  I don't know anything about the CL except I believe it relates to the knee.  I would have thought that a simple muscular strain would have improved by now.  I am quite worried.

Snowflake

Agree with much of what has been said and think it is about striking a balance between the needs of many types of dog to do chase type behaviours thus ensuring mental health and keeping them safe. I have found that building in a wait and/ or using a long line with which to control the dog while the ball is thrown can help. If the ball is thrown and the dog only released as the ball lands the dog naturally slows down as it approaches the target, avoiding the slamming on of those cruciate brakes.

I also think that it is repeated throwing that is bad and it is better to intersperse each throw with commands to build impulse control and alternate throws with finds, which are also very satisfying. This way the muscles and ligaments are given recovery time between throws.

Only had one dog with this injury and it's about nine years ago now so a bit short on detail as I just can't remember.

The dog showed lameness on rising after a sleep most pronounced in the evening, less bad in the morning. She dropped her hip on trotting which became less as exercise progressed. I took her to the vet I had then who was into homeopathic medications and he diagnosed a strain and prescribed some homeopathic pills. I have no problems with homeopathy and have used various things in the past for myself and the children so wasn't overly worried with what he said and gave the dog. However she didn't improve and I was going in regularly to see him over a period of about six weeks. I think during this time she was beginning to build up muscle in the affected leg in order to move without too much pain and being the breed she is, didn't complain. One day I took her in to see this vet for an appointment and found he had left the practice which was a bit odd as it was his practice. I sensed a lot of animosity from the receptionist towards this vet, but have no idea what actually had happened. From that day on the assistant vet took over the practice and has been my vet ever since. He is not a believer in homeopathy, which may have some bearing on what had happened. He read the notes and then checked the dog over flexing the knee joint, then grasping the knee joint twisted the knee to see how much movement there was. Dog took it all stoically and apart from a glare let him get on with it. He decided to do an X-ray and showed me later what was going on and diagnosed a torn crusciate. OP very soon after which was successful and remained fine for the rest of her life only showing a mild bit of arthritis later in life.