I know there are lots of people on here that understand protein levels far more than I do, I seem to remember reading before that protein from different sources is used differently by dogs.

A friend has a 7 month old sighthound puppy who is really excitable, unusually so for the breed. I have a 5 1/2 month old who is much calmer and they are similar lines. It's not a huge problem at all but we were chatting yesterday and discussing dog food as I suggested a lower protein diet for Miss Fizz. However fizzy girl is on James Wellbeloved Junior which is only 24% protein and my puppy is on Applaws puppy which is 39% protein. 

Now leaving aside everything else, training, upbringing, genetics etc and simply concentrating on food is there a case for proteins from different sources affecting dogs differently?

I ask because I have an older border collie girl who is prone to being very fizzy if fed on some foods - Eukanuba makes her wild and I originally thought it was the protein level, however she is now on Applaws too at 38% protein and quite calm.

Thoughts anyone?

I had thought this, but there is so much conflicting advice now that I'm not so sure. I have given my pup Skinners food in the past and had to peel her off the ceiling. She is on Arden Grange large breed now and seems calmer. The protein levels are pretty much the same within a few percent, so I guess something else must have sent her fizzy.
I fed my last two dogs on Burns which has a lower protein, not so much because of that although it was of benefit as they aged, but at the time I started it was one of the few dog foods that didn't use colourants and additives. One of my dogs reacted badly to them and Burns was a good suitable for her. I felt they were a little calmer on it which I put down to the lower protein.

Once you start investigating you find it's a much deeper topic than you ever thought imaginable!
20 years after I started being interested in this I'm still learning!
The fascinating thing about protein, is really not the protein! But the amino acids. Herring for example will have different amino acid make up if it's reared in the Pacific versus the Atlantic and dairy cattle will have different to beef cattle!! ~ good luck!!

> good luck

Well I was kindof hoping not to have to investigate HG and merely to post here and take advantage of all your knowledge ;)

I don't know which JW Junior you refer to, but looking at the lamb & rice one, it contains a whopping 26 % rice and 14 % barley with just 26 % lamb. Applaws dry is 75 % meat and no cereal at all and they claim on their website that dog foods including cereals and therefore carbohydrates can cause hyperactivity. Correct or not I don't know.

However I have 3 littersisters aged 3, all fed the same food, where one is absolutely hyper active to the extent of never being seen to relax and never being able to gain weight, whereas her two sisters have to be rationed to not get too fat. So clearly there it's nothing to do with the food.

Well that's just it, my conclusion was (and remains) that it's one of flux!
The research articles are yet to draw conclusive evidence but still remain in the majority that protein levels do not affect behaviour (although some recent ones have narrowed it down to some behaviors, these being the studies that concentrate on tests on testing urine much like human athlete protein metabolism studies)
   But still anecdotally there seems to be a lot of people who are convinced their dog's behavior is affected ~ I forget who now but one famous nutritionist gave a talk on Purina pro affecting behaviour (Purina pro is low protein!) is it a case we believe what we 'believe'... Or is there something in it?
   I think there is a bit of both! And given my original statement that the 'protein' of Herring may vary as to the amino acid make up of the source (Atlantic versus Pavific) can we blanket classify that protein when it appears on a dog food analysis (which is as tricksy as a tabloid newspaper to get to the truth of the matter!!)
    After much research I think I personally am coming to the conclusion that 'what works,works!' And the old ways are best.
    My grandfather fed his sled and working dogs by eye, they all had slightly different according to age, season and workload but also as to how they were working... Meat, fat and fish levels were changed accordingly my grandfather believed some did well on dried salmon and others did not, some needed kelp added and some needed litchen(!?) so I guess it would be pretty amazing if one commercial dog food brand suited all (regardless of protein levels!)
I don't believe protein alone affects behavior but I'm becoming more (scientifically) convinced that in a dog with high stress levels certain protein sources may!

~ does your friends dog have anything else other than just James well beloved (treats? Table scraps? Etc)

>carbohydrates can cause hyperactivity. Correct or not I don't know.

Well the science is that blood glucose levels can fluctuate, so yes, feasible... Spikes and lows manifested in heightened and depressed activity and mood.

It is really complex. You cannot rule out sensitivity to certain proteins and or carbs....fir instance gluten sensitivity to cause a range of behavioural changes.

the biochemistry of each animal will differ and this means that some are more prone to hyperactivity anyway. All else being equal it may be wise to look at the ratio of carbs to protein and the optimum level will be different for each animal. Paradoxically, too much protein or too little can result in hyperactivity etc.. In part it is because protein is necessary for manufacture in the brain of serotonin which is a mood regulating hormone amongst other things. In order for that to happen key protein molecules have to pass across the blood brain barrier but they are competing with other protein molecules to do so. If too much protein the key molecules (tryptophan)get knocked out of the way by other protein molecules, if too little there are not enough of the right molecules to cross anyway- the result is lower serotonin in the brain and possible hyperactivity.

If you add in carbs certain competing protein hormones get diverted allowing the vital serotonin making proteins to cross the blood brain barrier(this is to do with insulin which is produced in digestion of carbs, but the special proteins, that is tryptophan, are resistant to the diverting effects of insulin.

So you have to try different diets to see which suits your dog....not a very elevating conclusion but hope the explanation helps.

And yes, different animal proteins are digested more or less easily by each dog...as are plant proteins, don't forget some dogs do well on a corn-based diet presumably getting both a level of carbs and protein. We now know that dogs, unlike wolves, have developed to digest carbs presumably as a result of living alongside man. Though fir the northern breeds like Huskies one wonders if their needs are slightly different since they evolved alongside humans with a very high protein diet...perhaps the lichens are a source of carbs or in some way help to break down the animal protein in ways the dog can utilise it.

I have no knowledge of different types of protien but quite a few years ago Euk puppy & junior had a reputation for sending SOME dogs hyper - change food to almost anything else and they were 'normal'
Had a Rott that we used to fly like a kite if she had anything - food or treats - with EEC permitted colours/antioxidents/preservatives in. took 36 hrs to start her flying and about 4/5 days to get her right back down

I had problems with an Aussie on Royal Canin and was told by the company not to use James Wellbelove as both made by the same company and the ingredients were similar so if one didn't suit the other wouldn't. I put him on Pro Plan and he was like a different dog and have stayed on it ever since. I don't think it is anything to do with protein levels, saying that I don't like to use anything too high, the way we proved it was a old tried and tested method I used to use on the collies. Stop anything you are using and give fresh tripe and wholemeal biscuit and nothing else for 7 days as it takes that long for it to come out of the system and if it is the food by the end of the week you should see a difference. Even if it is a puppy it will not do any harm not having any supplements for a week.   

I agree that preservatives and additives are problematic to some dogs. Isn't JWB owned by Mars?

Its meant to be the quality or make up of the protein  that is more important than  the level, i was got  told that a rubber tyre  would give you protein but not an ideal one it helped make it a bit clearer  to me

> I agree that preservatives and additives are problematic to some dogs. Isn't JWB owned by Mars?

Crown, who also own Royal Canin. Not sure of the hierarchy further up the chain.

This is an issue that's very close to my heart, having bought a 4 month old puppy who had been reared on RC Junior - I think 32% protein.   Yes, he was a very advanced puppy BUT clearly had suffered for the 'too much, too fast'.   All his extra fast growth had caused his growth plates, ulna both sides, to prematurely close.   Now this isn't unknown in my breed, and I freely admit that this may have been going to happen, but fact is we never reared our puppies on anything near as high a protein level as this.   Closer to 26% absolute max. and even lower and certainly by around 8 months, they were off puppy food and onto an adult diet.   We had no prem.closure of the growth plates, and much as usually our puppies weren't 'fliers', their steady sensible progress through puppyhood left them as sound adults.   However, I'd only be worried about this high protein level with medium to large breeds.  Small breeds, I believe, do benefit from a higher protein level.

Then there's this hyper thing - and again I can only go by my first-hand experience, but I don't think you can rule out too much being a contributing factor.   But again, my Whippet, who had been reared on Beta ** (not what I'd have used and I took her off pretty soon after she came to us at 9 weeks) was very go-go from the moment she landed here.   With her, it's clearly more to do with her fizzy temperament, I'd suggest.

Interesting!   And btw. I don't do this 'breed specific' food that RC produces.   I think, but haven't checked, if you do look at the ingredients, they are pretty much the same across the breeds!!  Sales con?

Edit - **   LOL - there you go, Beta puppy has 29% protein, (so her being rather hyper could have been down to her food!!) - which is far higher than I'd realised although it lists cerals first, so again isn't what I'd use.

http://www.whichdogfood.co.uk/the-dog-food-directory