http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519314/How-century-breeding-improvement-turned-healthy-dogs-deformed-animals.html

The mail article

http://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/100-years-of-breed-improvement/

The blog

Hmm....KC are the disgrace of Europe to the notion of healthy dog breeding, my dobe was 11 last Sunday & has no UK KC in her at all, her mobility, gait, confirmations, sensory alertness & overall energies show no indications of anything other than a healthy Dobe still capable of enjoying her environment to the full, the UK dobe owners who send messages me on that site speak of nothing less than a breed will all kinds of health related probs causing an overall, significant, loss of the quality of life of their KC dogs.

11 Year Old: Mobility & Observable General Health Of Elderly Dog

http://tinyurl.com/kpp2h8j
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Hmm....KC are the disgrace of Europe to the notion of healthy dog breeding, my dobe was 11 last Sunday & has no UK KC in her at all, her mobility, gait, confirmations, sensory alertness & overall energies show no indications of anything other than a healthy Dobe still capable of enjoying her environment to the full,

So what, I'd not expect an 11 year old dog to be old unless a giant breed. I was still showing my UK bred for generations Malinois at 12 years of age, and she was still winning then.  She's 13 years and 8 months old now. My Cavalier lived to 15 and the last Golden I lost was 13, both fully UK bred of course.

>KC are the disgrace of Europe to the notion of healthy dog breeding, my dobe was 11 last Sunday & has no UK KC in her at all

So what? The KC survey of KC dobermanns had the oldest reported living to 16 years 6 months, so yours has a way to go! My dalmatians - all fully KC - live to 14 or 15, and I know of others  - again, fully KC - who've lived to 16 and 17.

My last two GRs, both KC reg dogs, lived until 14 and 14.5 years. Not bad considering the breed average.

I'd not expect an 11 year old dog to be old unless a giant breed

A Dobes life expectancy is 10-11,12 is quite rare, the one you mention living to 16 would be a mutation, I did hear of one, over this past 37 years which apparently lived till 14, but again thats a breed mutation, I dont know the breed life expectancy of Dalis or much else about that breed. There are mutations in every breed which show exceptional long or shorter lives than the average of the breed, I knew a DDB atound here which only lived to 4 & died of some kind of heart murmer but I doubt 4 years is a breed, in fact the longest lived dog I ever knew was a x collie type, he died within past year age 19 years.

Average life span of a Dob is 10-11, exceptions are not average of any breed.
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Dobermann forum obituaries, check it through & maybe revise your explurt opinion.

http://www.dobermantalk.com/rainbow-bridge/
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More factual information about Dobermanns.

Jeangenie
More factual information about Dobermanns.

What is I wrote that you do not/cannot comprehend or understand at all??? - I wrote, in reference my dog:

& has no UK KC in her at all
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I have a nearly 14 year old boxer and both her aunts (all of which I bred) made the same age.
Mine routinely have lived well into their teens.

To add: my KC registered 14 year old has never had a days illness in her life  and just as active and mobile at 11 as the dog in your clip.

>I wrote, in reference my dog: & has no UK KC in her at all

Which appears to be a shame, because the KC ones seem to do very well.

'Puppy buyers should always see the pup with its mother and avoid any puppies that come from parents with overly exaggerated features, which might include excessive wrinkling, overly short snouts or being overweight.'

TBF the KC are trying, yes, it should have happened earlier but, their response to this article is 100% better than when the PDE programme was aired, the vet checks at the show ring etc are good, it took hundreds of years for some breeds to have their varying degrees of problems so it cannot be fixed overnight, there are so many good and reputable breeders out there working with geneticists and working together to use healthy lines, many always have, which should not be forgotten or overlooked.

I particularly like the sentence above as it is one sure way to try to eradicate all the BYB and Puppyfarm pups that they cannot regulate, they are doing their best in the show ring and I think a good job now,  they say they will not place dogs overly excessive in characteristics, I believe they will stick to this, the world is watching!

There are still many, many fantastic breeders out there with healthy lines in all breeds and tbf people just need to make sure they go to a breeder who health tests, even though the show breeder was and is singled out, it will be the show breeder who will bring this back, and from now on have the best and healthiest lines.

It is the only place I would get a pedigree dog from as everyone is trying so hard to work together, the KC are beginning to step up and have changed quite a bit in such a short space of time, onwards and upwards........

Which appears to be a shame, because the KC ones seem to do very well.

KC knows next to nothing about Dobes, apart from that there are no breed experts in the UK, as far as KC go they have no mandatory fit for purpose for any breed, in Europe all working breeds have a fit for  purpose test before they can have a breeding licence from the breed registration club.

This is what KC are trying to get away from, the link is the result of youtube search words: 'UK Kennel Club'

Its flooded with the worlds most decrepit breed registration club.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=uk+kennel+club&sm=12
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Until the KC let us put date of death on our dogs details which are viewable to all the same as health tests we continue being called.My KC registered Poms live on average to 16. My KC registered SWD's cannot say yet but had two live until 12, one until 15 and have one at 13 who is extremely fit and well who looks like she's got a few years in her yet.

I agree, I've never been around early dog death and illness as I am so often reading about, it's why I poo poo'd this unhealthy dog 'rubbish' to start with just completely unknown to me, all pedigree dogs over the past 40+ years have been long lived and very healthy as our current dogs owned by myself and my family are, but I'm having to accept through others stories, vets and just looking at rainbow bridge that there is a problem here.

The KC are trying to put the dog world back together as best as they can now , it is not all doom and gloom out there, plenty of healthy long lived lines out there still, but yes, PDAE it needs to be shown as part of the health tests,  if a dog dies (apart from an accident) at an early age, or of a genetic disorder.

A responsible breeder just would not breed from a dog/bitch with early deaths or genetic disorders in the line, so again the KC and public are left to sort out those who don't care, which means they are unlikely to be honest in the first place.

The peak breeding ages of most dogs is between 2-5yrs it will always need to be a generation behind showing the deaths of grandparents and previous descendants only via a veterinary report, for others including the KC to judge that line, so that means it may not be of any good for at least another 10 years to judge from, but I guess it would be a start. :-) And only any good if the KC steps in and stops registering pups from such dogs and perhaps installs a heavy fine to go along with that.

I also strongly believe that unless breeding is only done by those who understand what they are doing i.e what they are breeding in or out of a line, it will never get any better, breeding dogs quite simply cannot be done by anyone with a dog, it just can't.

Which is why I stand by the fact that the show and working breeders will have the healthiest pups as often already and if not now will eventually, as we understand dogs and lines better than anyone else, mixing in the dog world allows show and working breeders to meet generations of dogs from a line, to understand the importance of importing and exporting to help many lines. Misled pet owners, BYB's and puppy farmers often just put A and B together with no clue of what they are doing.

For the sake of the dog, this willy nilly breeding has to stop.

I like the contents of the 3 posts above, they are constructive & have ideas emerging.

The only thing I want to add is that I think its a good idea to go lengths to study (maybe wrong word) European breed clubs breeding & fit for purpose regulations. In Europe only the breed clubs themselves are classed as the experts & it is ONLY the breed clubs which register the pedigrees & hold the championship shows. the national kennel clubs are more of a hobby show thing.

Below are links to a) German Dobermann Club breeding rules (Dobermann Verein) - b) ZTP = Fit for purpose test- make no mistake breeding Dobes in Europe is not for the faint hearted or lazy.

Breeding Rules & Regs
http://bit.ly/1f5JPIi

ZTP (Fit for purpose test)
http://bit.ly/IIPnwv

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In Europe only the breed clubs themselves are classed as the experts & it is ONLY the breed clubs which register the pedigrees

Although the breed clubs here are advisors and work with the KC having input. I think today the above is a much better idea, it would be much easier to keep records and keep an eye on a breed if it were run by a head breed club. The KC really was always only a place to register pedigrees and run competitions, and it has been forced to take on a more complicated role to try and safe guard the dog, especially since PDE, but personally I think it could be a good idea to change this up now, and have people with a real passion for a breed running things like the registration of litters health tests and pedigrees for that breed, it would probably be much stricter with its rulings.

I don't think anyone would today disagree with more stringent rules like fit for purpose and testings for all breeds perhaps there are things to be learnt via other countries, anything that helps the dog.

However, in not being so strict at present it doesn't mean that there are not great lines of dogs in the UK, the overhaul has begun, with a few more tweaks we can get there too.

make no mistake breeding Dobes in Europe is not for the faint hearted or lazy.

Exactly how it should be for all breeds, no more lazy, if you have an interest in a breed and wish to be a breeder it should be strict, and the breeder should be knowledgeable and have hedges to jump, no more just putting A & B together, it has to change.

I overlooked saying - I do not & never have bred Dobes or any other breed.
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The only thing I want to add is that I think its a good idea to go lengths to study (maybe wrong word) European breed clubs breeding & fit for purpose regulations.

Yes, and then add them TOGETHER with what we have here. Try finding an eye tested Belgian Shepherd anywhere in Europe outside the UK, Ireland and Scandinavia -you have virtually NO chance whatsoever. Although it has to be said that you will find the very strictest breeding rules (health, temperament etc, as well as looks or working ability being taken into account) in Scandinavia, and there it is most definitely NOT the breed clubs that are in charge of this but the national KCs.

I've read some of what's written in this thread, but of all the comments, this is the one I would totally agree with.   I suppose it would rely on the individual to let the KC know when they have a loss, which may be where this idea would fall down but at the moment, it's only if followers of a Breed care enough about what's going on within their breed to do a Survey, that stats like this are known - unless perhaps somebody looking specifically for longevity when choosing an outcross dog, actually asks the owner of the outcross line.

ps   My line usually lived at least a couple of years longer than the norm for my main breed, but I'd suggest that's nlthing unusual given we can provide better health care, and food, these days, then perhaps in the past.

pps   I've just had a look at the links - here we go again re the Basset ..........  yes there have been exaggerations in recent years, excesses have been rewarded in the ring to the detriment of the breed in many cases, BUT for me, the Basset of old is NOT what I'd have been remotely happy producing.   This breed, which was man-made to begin with and over the years has evolved, is, generally speaking, far sounder than it used to be.   My line has only had one, in many generations, with a back problem and that was spondylitis.   He was the only one, and although he went off his back legs at aged 8, he recovered, and lived to be 14 with good quality life, even if he didn't move as he should have.  14 is surely an acceptable age for a Basset.   As for the idea about length of ear being a problem - RUBBISH!!!   Again none of mine, not even puppies before they grew away from their ear length, had any damage to their ears, other than perhaps the occasional skirmish.  We don't normally see the knuckling over seen habitually in the early Basset, now.   Also, the GSD pictured as 'now' in the second link, I'd like to suggest is a rather nice example of the breed - certainly there is the required slope to his back, without the banana-back that is so hideous.

but I'd suggest that's nlthing unusual given we can provide better health care, and food, these days, then perhaps in the past

Interesting, I first had a Dobe rescue in 1976, there were a lot about then, the average life expectancy of UK dobes was 8 then, Ive also thought improved food has been a big contributer the much longer life expectancy these days.
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My friend who has owned a number of dobes (9 so far) has lost some at around 9, (one with haemolytic anaemia, none due to heart) but her first two both lived to 13+ and her current bitch (half UK, lines half European) is 13.  a she has lived with skin Cancer for many years.

If you look at Kioiranet (Finnish Kennel Club database) you will see that a lot of the dogs will have dates of death on the viewable record (obviously where the owner has let them know).

I have informed dates fo death for my three and the KC have these on record.

Those who use MyKC tool will se that you can choose in the My dogs list the option to not show deceased dogs, so why they don't include date of death as well as date of birth on the dogs viewable record beats me.

This post is sadly the true agenda for most of the critics of pedigree/selective breeding and keeping of pets/domestic animals:

"Just leave the poor animals alone out in the wild to enjoy their freedom. Stop keeping pets to satisfy your selfish wants, holding them through their neck with a tight strap and go wherever you point them. When we realise that animals are not born to eat them, to raise as pets and breed them for our own interests, then we will be living in a better world.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519314/How-century-breeding-improvement-turned-healthy-dogs-deformed-animals.html#ixzz2moqco4VQ
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Do such people not see what is going on with humans conflict/competition with wildlife. 

If domesticated animal breeding and keeping were phased out (they would cease to exist), we would require even more land for growing crops, and would be killing even more wildlife to stop them eating them, as well as using up their habitat.

Also we probably would have less sympathy and empathy with other creatures with no contact or relevance to most people's lives in the form of pets/livestock.  We would view them purely as competition for resources, and not a valuable resource in themselves.

Very true Barbara.  

I wonder if that's the real agenda - removing animals from the world.  

If it's not, then they are going the wrong way.    It's been proved in Africa, and India, that once the wildlife has commercial value - ie, they bring in revenue which benefits locals, then their numbers increase and poaching/killing goes down or ceases.

If it wasn't for eating them for food, there would be no chickens, cattle, sheep...

And when it comes to competing for resouces, just look what happened to Bison and the Grey Wolf in America!

The Panda is suffering the same fate right now, because until recently, it had no commercial value to the people in it's range.   It may already be too late for the Panda :-(

And these people want to put the rest of the animal kindom on the same footing.

I feel it has to be malicious, no-one could truly be that stupid surely?   When the evidence is staring them in the face.

PETA have exactly that agenda

But an ultimate aim of what?    Eradicating  all animals from the planet?    Does this include humans?  

After finding the website PETA kills animals, it seems they're just another rent-seeking  company, who make money from the bleeding  heart vegan brigade.

Not that I think all vegans are bleeding hearts, just the ones who support PETA and probably are unaware of the discepancy between what they preach and what they do

Achive photos
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519314/How-century-breeding-improvement-turned-healthy-dogs-deformed-animals.html

Dobermann conformations 1904-2008, video of archive photos, 3 secs per still shot. Note, the early part of the 20th century only working dogs were bred, the working weight is 30k male & 28k female.

http://bit.ly/1aN4Rq7
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the working weight is 30k male & 28k female.

Mistake typo - its 38k male
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