Hi everyone, I am going out of my mind trying to decipher the rules for JW points. So I wonder if anyone can help me?

1. Breed Club open show. Dogs & Bitches are judged separately. My dog is in puppy dog and junior dog. Only (2) in puppy dog so no point. (3) in junior so 1 point. My dog goes Best Puppy in show. so he beat the MP dog (1) & the MP Bitch (4) & PB (2). So he beat 9 puppies. Can I claim a point for BPIS as the MP Bitch he challenged for BPIS had gained a point in her class?

2. A general open show. 3 Breed classes, Yearling, PG & Open. My puppy is not old enough to enter yearling. My puppy gets 2nd in PG behind the dog that went BOB (6 in class). No best puppy is officially awarded. Can I claim a point? (the growing trend at open shows to not having proper BPIB/Group is making the JW even harder).

At least champ shows are clear cut. Although even harsher. We had the same scenario as question one at a champ show where he went BPIB but got no point for his puppy class, just the junior class, even though he beat 11 puppies. Harsh Kennel Club, VERY harsh. I read somewhere recently that that you can claim a point as long as you beat 3 other dogs, (directly or indirectly) but would like someone to confirm their points have been awarded in comparable situations. Hopefully it won't come down to this, but would hate to discover later that he could have claimed these points. Any help would be much appreciated.

It's pretty clear on the actual form.

in answer to your question

1 - You can only claim one point as there was a class you were in where you were able to claim a point - you cannot claim anymore, as is stated on the form "One point for the award of Best Puppy in Breed at an Open Show (effective from 1st January 2011). Only to be claimed if no qualifying Junior Warrant points were gained by that dog by winning a Breed Class or Classes at that show and only to be claimed if the dog awarded Best Opposite Sex Puppy has also gained one or more points having won a Breed Class or Classes at that show"

2 - No point - you have to win a class and beat at least two other entrants

You need WINS, other places don't count and you need enough entries in each class.

It is annoying :( My breed isn't scheduled a lot at Open shows and where they are there is very often no puppy class and often not junior either. I feel your pain; one example - my puppy was 2nd in post graduate, more than 6 in class, and at least three of them were puppies, took BPIB, no point :(

Have loads of other examples too, but it's hard in numerically higher breeds too.

Very rare to get a JW winner in our breed since the three dogs in a class rule, and having to have wins at Open show level came in, especially when you needed 10 open class wins.

My bitch has won 14 points and comes out of Junior on the 24th, with one Open show left.

She has won 15 classes at CC shows (potential 3 pointers), and 11 classes at Open level/Non CC champ shows (potential 1 pointers), but have ben able to claim 12 points from champ shows, and two from opens.  She also has a RCC.

Hi Barabara, slightly confused by your post, you only need 3 open show wins? :-)

Past tense ;)

Originally when I first started showing you didn't need any specifically from Open shows, and there was no minimum number needed in the class. 

Then the KC decided that points would only count from 12 - 18 months so that young pups were not over shown.

Then they had a rethink and it had to be 3 dogs in the class and 10 of the points had to be at Open level.

A few years later (2002 to 2004)  they allowed it to be just 3 from Open shows.

My favourite bugbear is that I think the BOB challenge should also count - if there are 3 dogs in the challenge and your dog wins, you should get a point or 3 points depending on the show, whether or not you also gained points from the class win. My boy missed his by 3 points some years ago now, but he'd gained about 5 BOB at open level and 1 at Champ show level, so would have had it with points to spare if only they counted the challenge.

Actually you do get a point for BOB at Open shows, if there are no points won in the classes, and there are at least 3 dogs entered in breed, but not if you already got a point, shame as I'd have the 3 open show points if you got one for class AND BOB..

Yes that's exactly what I said - you only get a point for BOB if there were no class points. I think you should get one even if there were class points. Henry would have had the points and plenty of spare under those rules! :-D

you can also get a point if you win your class or bob and 3 dogs are entered and all are there but one doesnt come in to show

Two ways of looking at it. I think the JW title was brought in as a prestigious junior champion title.

Yes people like to win it but....it had been so downgraded in some breeds as to be nearly worthless.
If two friends have the time and money to go round loads of shows, enter two dogs in appropriate classes......
in CERTAIN breeds they will most likely get a JW.

Because of the 'jumping through hoops' method of getting on judging lists these days, so much manipulation is going on to get SBNs.

i know we have had people entering their dogs and taking them to shows but if they want to stop other exhibitors winning the point because they think the other exhibitors will win then they have not been showing the dog they had entered
i think now the k/c have got wise to this  thats why if dog there but not shown they can still be counted

We have others who ring the secretary asking how many in their class. If not 'enough', they don't go!

i think now the k/c have got wise to this thats why if dog there but not shown they can still be counted

Yes, but this dog must have been entered in 2+ classes, it has to have been shown in it's first class to be counted in the subsequent classes