We have a Labradoddle and we love the mix. She has all the good traits of the labs we have had in the past, doesn't shed, and is much easier to teach than our loyal but not so bright labs. My question is - if we wanted to breed her what would we breed her to; another labradoddle, a lab, or a poodle? And what happens to the traits in the second generation? I would greatly appreaciate any information anyone might have on the subject.

Do a search on this site under "Labradoodle" . There's been a lot of discussions about the topic of breeding and how unpredictable the results are concerning this "crossbreed".
hth
toodles

Ditto

Hi,

I came accross a Labradoodle at training classes and it was a nightmare! It looked nice enough, but did not have the best of both breeds i think it could have had the worst! Its not the dogs fault. It was uncontrollable and I have never said that about any dog, I always think where theres a will theres a way but not with this one, one day calm and good, sitting on comand and the next whirling dervish. Also this dog snapped, and for no reason.

The moment you thought you had got somewhere it was back to square one, our training was clicker with a behaviorist and I think she tried every trick in the book.

About 1 year after the course had finished I met its owner and it (sorry for the it's but can't remember what sex it was) was still the same they put an awful lot of time in to it and loved it anyway but it was not what they thought and if you breed them and get a bad result you have to find owners willing to put up with there ways, and as i have been helping with rehoming I know only to well how hard it is to find good homes for any dog.

I don't want to put you off and this was one dog but at the end of the day its still a cross breed and know one should breed them,all the while there are so many in homing centres.

I hope this did not sound like a lecture it was not meant to.

Kim

Welcome to the forum Dudel :-)

You will find the search facility in the top right hand corner of the forum page.

Hi Dudel
We have just discussed exactly this topic, at length, in Visitors Questions, if you use the search you will find the post.
Nicky

Strange that there's been a few posts about "Labradoodles" recently.

I still can't understand why people would choose to breed mongrels or pay exhorbitant prices to buy a mongrel.

There are several existing pedigreed breeds that have the look and qualities you would like. Have you not considered any of those? At least you'd know what to expect.
Dot

Curly Coated Retriever for one :)
Sweet dogs with a beautiful coat ;)

Hi Dot, Dont want to argue with you :) but a mongrel is a dog of unknown origin, so not a Labradoodle. It is technically a crossbreed.

Sorry Philippa,:( I know I shouldn't really call them mongrels but I just hope it puts folk of "dabbling". Sorry :)
Dot

Dot, it is understandable, people who are not "into dogs" will read about crosses or have one and think it is the answer to all problems. Those who are "into dogs" will know that many experiaments with crossing breeds has lead to problems, and is why the Guide dogs for the Blind have stoped the experiment. Lets hope the whole thing dies out before a real problem rears its head, leading to Labs. Poodles and other breeds used in the crosses being involved in the temperement problems now coming to light. Jackie

Heard about Jack Russell/Poodle crosses the other day
Anne

Now that's scary --- the dog will need a 12 foot fence to just keep it in the yard :rolleyes:

Wh6y not have a Curly coated Retrieveror Irish Water spaniel. You will have more chance of predicting the result based on the parents and breeds characteristics. poodles and labradors really have such different characters, that you would have no way to tell which way another mix would go!

Another idea is a spanish Water dog or Lagotta Romagnola.

What is wrong with cross breeds? A purebred was once a cross breed until reconized and considered purbred. If it wasn't for cross breeding these purbreds would not have been here in the first place. I had a shepherd/collie and she was a very well tempered, friendly dog. Got along with everybody and animals and so does my hybrid. As far as I'm concerned it depends on how you raise an animal, a dog is only as smart as its owner. If the owner doesn't know how to train a dog then yes problems. You can take a dog to obedience class but if you are not doing it at home of course the dog isn't going to learn, once a week at class is not good enough it is an everyday thing.
For the one that wants to breed the labradoodle I personally would use another labradoodle. There is the Bichon/yorkie to. The Balgonese, Havanese, came from the Bichon (Bichon Balgonese, Bichon Havenese, and the Bichon Frise). I find it funny how people can get upset about a cross breed but once it is reconized then that cross is o.k. because now it is a purbred. Just my own thoughts and opinion.

Hi Doll,
I love mutts and I own two crossbreeds.... I understand your rationale, but no one on here is slamming crossbreeds. They have their uses and enjoyments.

But setting out to create a new breed is more than just deciding to use two established dog types and hoping for the best. That's not being responsible. Two Labradoodles together might logically be thought of to supposedly enhance the 'new' breeds characteristics, but unfortunately, genetics does not work out that way. There's more to it than that.

People unfortunately decide to breed when they have type x and find a friend who has another type x dog. Gee, wouldn't it be great sometime for these two x's to get together and have more? They don't think through the health, genetic, future offspring responsibilities. It's just a live for a moment temporary deal. :( And that's one of the reasons why the shelters are so full. Irresponsible breeding and ownership.

Yes, dog breeds have been created through the ages based on needs of owners. But come on, really, do you in your office or classroom need a specific type of working dog aimed at some vague purpose that may or may not work out in the long run? There's enough out there that fit what the average person is looking for without playing roulette.

There is nothing wrong with crossbreeds providing you don't care what the pups finnish up like as to looks, size, health or temperment. And if you don't care and love dogs so much that you will love it anyway, then what is wrong with one of the hundreds, no thousands of pups & young dogs, who are out there looking for good homes, they were probably breed by accident but they still need homes. The thing most of us get upset about is the deliberate crossing of what are established breeds and finishing up with an unknown quantity in the pups thus produced. Ja:)kie

Yes I agree. There are alot of unwanted dogs because of people. People tend to breed for the pure enjoyment of wanting pups and yes alot probable end up in shelters or put to sleep because of it. I was just wondering about the crossbreeds, but question answered...thanks :)

Yes, some breeds have been made up by crossing several existing breeds, however this does not mean all you need to do is cross two breeds to get a new one !
Here is something I wrote a while ago on a Pug list, when someone claimed to be creating a new breed, the "mini mastiff" by crossing Pugs, St Bernards and Bullmastiffs.

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For a new breed to be recognized by the FCI, its population must consist of 7 (I think, maybe more) *unrelated* lines, one line consisting of at least 5 females and one male. There must be proof that all these dogs have been breeding true to standard for a given number of generations (don't remember how many - 10 I think?).
This is what it takes for a new breed to be truly considered a new breed - not some kind of fancy mutt that was develloped by people with a very high sense of business. At the moment, the only "new" breeds that are asking for recognition are either landraces who have been reconstructed (Bouvier des Alpes - although from what I know they're nowhere near to be recognized yet, Pachon Navarro, the newly recognised Cao Fila de San Miguel ...), or breeds that one can consider as "sub-breeds" of already existing breeds. For instance, the White American Canadian Shepherd - it was created within the GSD genepool, without infusion of any new genes, thus it was quite easy to devellop, without the need for a stringent selection program. Same goes for the "downsized" breeds, like the Mini Pei or others.

Because, creating a new breed "out of the blue", or more appropriatedly, by cross breeding to use the genes of several existing breeds, implies a very long and stringent selection program. Usually such breeds were created by a single individual, who had a dream he dedicated his whole life to make come to life. Example : the Dogo Argentino. This is a fairly new breed. Its creation was Dr Antonio Nores Martinez's "grand oeuvre" - artwork of a life. He was a geneticist. He dedicated his whole life to the creation of the Dogo, using local "presa" dogs, pointers, dalmatians, and others. Yet when he died it was not completely achieved, his brother carried on his work. The breed was recognized by the FCI not very long ago (10 yrs or so?). Still there are divergences in type and the breed needs a lot of work to establish
some true consistency. And same goes for the Czeck Terrier - who was created with Sealyham (sp ?), Scottish, etc.
Now what is needed in the creation of such new breeds, appart from ***LOTS*** of time, money and dedication : CULLING. Severe culling. As in, producing ten litters to obtain one suitable puppy. I can only let you guess what happens to the other ones - it would be quite difficult to find homes for all those unwanted dogs that at this moment in the process are nothing more than cute little mutts.

So, anybody who pretends to be creating a new breed is either :

- producing an inordinate amount of puppies of which the biggest part is put to sleep. This is how a lot of breeds were created, at a time when a puppy's life wasn't as valued as it is now.

- or, producing an inordinate amount of puppies, of which the biggest part are given away - do you really think it is wise, in these times and ages, to deliberately produce mutts that will have to be given away ? And when it is very doubtful that there will be a possibility for the breeder to select the homes carefully - remember, given the number of unrelated lines needed for the breed to be viable long term as a closed population, and the drastic selection needed, there will be large number of founders needed. LOTS of litters produced. Considering this, I think the first solution could even be considered more ethical ....

- or, simply lying big time. The real process of creating a breed is nowhere near to be followed. Like, someone claiming to have created a breed, and selling his pups as such, when he's at the 3rd generation, based on 2 founders. When Dr Nores Martinez's life was not long enough for him to have ever seen the full result of his work .....
BTW - you will notice on this kind of people's website, the pictures shown are of puppies and puppies only. You will never see an adult. Two reasons : usually these are puppymillers who keep their dogs in bad conditions and showing them would do their business a big disservice. Then, the most important reason : while a litter of young crossbred puppies can seem quite homogenous at a young age, the differences in type will appear as they grow up. Thus, they can't show us an "example" of what the pups will look like when he's grown up, because they just don't know what they will look like.

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On the Labradoodle case, I would like to add that from what I understand, a Labradoodle is a Labrador x Poodle F1 cross - thus you do not breed Labradoodles any further. If you did so you could end up with even more diverse a litter as a Labradoodle one, you could even get some totally Labrador-like and Poodle-like puppies, which is not desireable (for a Labradoodle breeder).

In the USA many puppymills produce Poodle crosses, because it is interesting for them financially - they can get plenty of puppies of different "breeds" (ahem) with only one stud (the poodle, put on shih tzu, maltese, cocker, whatever bitches). Also they will produce larger litters than purebreds, with no whelping problems (for instance, larger headed breeds will have no problem whelping Poodle cross puppies). Then they need to convince the public that these are new breeds, well at the same time they'll call them rare to get more money out of them, and there you go.

For the Labradoodle at the beginning it was different, they were developped first as a non-shedding guide dog. I do not really understand why they wouldn't use Standard Poodle directly, they can be very valuable guide dogs, I know some are used successfully ... and all of them in a litter would be shed-free, which is not the case with Labradoodle.

Sylvie & the Molosses de Pacotille from France

Very interesting post Sylvie :-)

That was very interesting Sylvie. You got your post there before me (I finger pluck :( takes forever). I just thought that alot of people here didn't like crossbreeds. But you more than answered me and it was very interesting to read/know.

What an excellent mail Sylvie. Extremely well thought out and explained.

I know the UK Guide Dog Association doesn't like using Standard Poodles as guide dogs. Possibly they are too independent and can be stubborn? It's certainly not that they are not trainable. A lot of the dogs they produce themselves are lab/goldie crosses as they find this gives the best 'mix' of the two breeds. As you say about the labradoodles though, they always go back to purebreds to breed rather than mating two of the offspring.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Thanks Sylvie, you have said what some of us, me in particular, have been trying to say for months, lets hope your post is read and inwardly digested. Ja:)ie

Well I usually lurk (this is my third post I think, I had asked about the Balai directive) because everytime I had something to say someone else writes it better ... but this time I had this old post I had kept in my "archives" (LOL) because well it took me so long to write it I thought I might use it again to make it worth the work !! So I thought I could contribute to the discussion, for a change.
But it has been my experience on message boards that the longer the post, the less likely to be read / understood ... which doesn't stop me from trying, hehe.

Great post Sylvie! Hope you'll continue contributing to the board. :)

I wonder if Standard Poodles don't like the repetition that guide dog work requires. Retrievers and labs might be more forgiving of the rote work that is necessary.

Great Post Sylvie.....especially with the culling concerns. You are right on with that point.
I was reading on one website a plan to create a type of solid pinschers (I can't remember the entire name) that where those that did not fit the ideal were altered and had homes arranged for them. Now they were a small breed and I could see where demand would be enough even for an imperfect dog. I was interested in them for my mother -- small, short haired, companion, non terrier type dog.
toodles

As a Standard Poodle owner, I would imagine the upkeep of one as a guide dog would be prohibitive. The clipping and grooming is an endless task that a blind person would find personally difficult or a financial pressure to have professional grooming. They train very well, but bore easily...their minds are so quick. They are also avid hunters, always on the lookout for bunnies, mice....anything that moves. That would distract them from a guide dog task. Wonderful, wonderful dogs, nevertheless.

Thank you Sylvia, a really informed post. My first dog was a crossbreed so no matter how I might appear on here I have nothing against crossbreeds. My only complaint is when some unscrupulous people try to dress them up as a breed and charge way over the odds for them.

Over the years the Guide Dogs organisation have tried a number of crosses but now mainly use Lab X Golden. The Golden adds an inch or two to the height which helps when supplying to taller men whilst the Labrador, maturing earlier than the Golden helps to bring the training of the dogs forward a few weeks. They did try putting cross to cross but the results were so much more variable they discontinued the experiment.

Regards, John