Question originally posed here:

Should we allow our health tested stud dogs be used on un-tested bitches? Is it better to have one parent screened rather than neither when they use the dog down the road?

Would I allow my health tested stud dogs to be used on an un-tested bitchs?  NO

Is it better to have one parent screened rather than neither when they use the dog down the road?  NO    It's far better to educate regarding the need for health screening both parents and every phone call made to a knowledgeable stud dog owner is a chance to explain and educate that potential breeder.  After all you may not be saying no per se - you could be saying yes later if they go ahead and get the necessary tests...

I ask them to get the tests done but often the bitch is already in season.
My view is if they've taken so little care and so little time to plan for the litter ....what else?.....so they can't use my dog.

Sometimes people are ignorant of the health problems in my breed and I scare them into either testing or reconsidering. Very often I'll never know.

dogs a babe - we all know that we should educate others about breeding form their pets but there is always a high element of these who don't or won't take any notice. 

We are all talking as breeders with experience - try to put yourself in the position of a novice puppy buyer desperately trying to find a puppy of the breed they want.  Many would shy away from even approaching 'show kennels' fearing the price would be too high but just looking for a 'pet litter' for their family.  Would they prefer to buy a puppy from a litter where neither parent is health checked or from where one parent has?  I'm sure the latter if they were made aware of health tests etc.

Again, all of this rests with the KC - until such times only litters registered are from health tested parents (where appropriate of course), there will always be people trying to sell puppies with possible eye, hip/elbow problems as 'pedigree dogs'.

The answer is absolutely not. I wouldn't be allowed to anyway, being a KC Assured Breeder! Plus it would go against most breed clubs code of ethics so I would be breaking them as well. And we all know how things go -if something goes wrong with the pups at any point during their lives, it is the stud dog that will get the blame. "Half" a test is no good to puppy buyers anyway, i.e. one parent. You only need to look at the example of the Golden Retriever I had with a sire with very good hips and a dam with a high hip score. My dog ended up with a sky high score and severe HD, WAY higher than even the mother, and the exact same thing could have happened had she not been scored. Just one parent being good is of little use unless you are talking DNA tests where a hereditary clear dog can only produce at worst non affected carriers.

Just tagging on at the end to pose a different question, here is a scenario in my breed most people do hips/elbows but ideally with some issues popping up i would want heart and eyes testing too. Would you say if the stud was for example tested for all of them and you thought some bitches were nice enough for you to agree with your dog being used saying something like if the MINIMUM tests have been done (hips/elbows) the stud fee is the normal amount, but if you get your bitch tested for heart and eyes i will charge less for the stud fee. I have been considering this as it might encourage more people to health test rather than them just going to an untested dog. Does anyone think this is a good idea or not? And if not can you say why?

It's down to education again. So many people do not know that dogs need to be tested even for some of the more well known things like HD.
I'm not a breeder, just a member of the public who buys a puppy as a pet, the only difference with me is that I'm older, owned dogs for years and have during those years, learnt a great deal about dogs. I have to confess at this point I was not aware of eye problems in collies until recently, I still have plenty to learn. It can be rather scary approaching 'show kennels' when you are just joe public. I recently attended a dog show and found it difficult to strike up conversations with various people I was sat next to, to be honest I felt rather snubbed, I felt I just a bit of a nobody, just a pet owner. Now I know not everyone is like that and many welcome others and are only, too happy to talk about their dogs or explain what is going on at a show, but there are a number who don't. Consequently, for many ordinary people not privy to the rarified world of breeding and showing dogs, find it far easier to get a pup from someone down the road who is far more approachable, but has done none of the health tests. I suspect price is also a factor for many, not realising that there may be huge financial costs in the future should the dog suffer from HD or something. Yes, educating others about the importance of the various health tests and the need to go to those breeders is what is needed, but also for breeders to lose their rather scary, not for the likes of you image.
I really do hope I have not offended anyone, I am not directing this at anyone on here as i have found you all very helpful, but it is something I have become aware of when talking to other dog owners. It's a perceived view and difficult to shake off.

Generally members of the public seem to think health testing only applies to show dogs, not pets. Because they're only churning out pets it doesn't matter (in their view, and what they tell the buyers) that their bitch is untested, and they're not fussed about whether the sire is or not.

I am not a breeder but would want both bitch and sire to be fully health tested and if possible grandparents too.

rather off topic but
Have just been trying to deter someone from mating there untested bitch ( but she is helthy the vet says so !!) to a nice!! sire because she needs puppies as at two she is rather excitable and it will calm her down and then she can be spayed. grrr

Ells Bells - I'm a bit unsure as to why you think it's a stud dog owners responsibility to fulfil demand from novice puppy buyers...

Why should I compromise my standards simply because a buyer thinks that one health tested parent is better than none?

It's odd how the idea that a bitch needs to have a litter before being spayed, still abounds. My dad used to think that and I could never persuade him otherwise. His other 'cracker' was that if you give dogs raw meat it sends them mad!?!

I wonder if there is anyone here who would allow their health tested stud dog to be used on a bitch that had not been health tested?  If so, what would their justification for this be?

I only own bitches and am currently researching a suitable stud for one of my girls.  I would not wish to use a stud dog that I knew was being used on untested bitches since I would feel the stud dog owner did not have the breed's best interests at heart.

I agree Jodie, I think a lot of people have the mistaken belief that a puppy from health tested show dogs ,either won't be available for a pet home, or will be hellishly expensive.

>Now I know not everyone is like that and many welcome others and are only, too happy to talk about their dogs or explain what is going on at a show, but there are a number who don't. Consequently, for many ordinary people not privy to the rarified world of breeding and showing dogs, find it far easier to get a pup from someone down the road who is far more approachable,

Have never thought showing 'rareified' just a hobby.  I now try and invite people interested in the breed to come to a show, rather than just to visit me, as that way they get to meet more of the people in our breed and of course more dogs. 

>also for breeders to lose their rather scary, not for the likes of you image.

God I hope nobody thinks that of me, as I consider myself Joe Public, who simply has a hobby involving dogs and consequently breeds.

Most of the people in dogs I know are not of the monied or landed classes, just your ordinary person from dustman to doctor, or often as not housewife or retiree..

Many breeders are just like you, Barbara. Not scary at all! My contacts with breeders in the main have been good and very much on the positive side. All my dogs going back to when i was a child have come from ethical breeders. I really did feel awkward at this particular show I attended and couldn't seem to strike up a conversation with anyone apart from one lady. I was quite relieved when I spotted the breeder of my current dog and went and had a chat with him. It can just take one occasion like this to put people off and create a false impression. I know this was just not a good day, have been to Crufts on a number of occasions on gundog day and had a great old time talking to breeders and their dogs. Not just about me though, speaking to other dog owners it seems a few think that approaching a proper breeder for a pet dog is not what you do.

Well Jodi I must have three mad dogs and one just waiting to have a litter !! lol

I am a professional dog breeder and do puppy visits as part of my job, I find puppy buyers fall into two camps. One who boasts that their dog is from show lines as if that makes them an extraordinary puppy, or one who thinks they just want 'a pet'- and so health tests etc don't apply. Either way it is worrying because it obviously shows that people think show puppies are 'bad' or more expensive or only for show people.

It is pretty worrying the lack of education the general public has about puppy buying.

Think you meant walker Josh. :)

Well, 'I stuck my head above the parapet ' this week and, to continue the metaphor, 'got shot down in flames' by admin. who locked the thread when it drifted too far into this particular 'shatter zone'.
My opinion is that ,while I cannot subscribe to the 'no breeding without showing' ethos, I cannot condone breeding without rigorous health screening of both parties. I feel really strongly about this. There is no excuse for any responsible breeder to permit a dog of either sex to mate/make puppies with an none health screened partner. What is breeding about if it is not to improve the next generation? What is breeding about if it is not to educate those considering breeding from their beloved pet ? Too bad if they call me, looking for a stud and darling girl is 'ready' but has not had the relevant health testing. Okay, they may find some money grabbing opportunist who will accede to their demands but it won't be me.

I'd rather my boys be mated to an unregistered but health screened bitch than be mated to a KC girl whose bedazzled owner has done none of the necessary groundwork to be a' breeder'.

Yep, we come from all walks of life and our experiences enrich us. We are not too posh to approach. But, buyer beware , it can be treacherous in the world of breeding and there are many out there who couldn't give a whatsit for the betterment of the breed they are involved in.

How embarassing!! I DID mean to say Dog WALKER!!!!!!

Agree that there is no excuse for not doing basic health tests and would not allow a stud to mate untested bitches. However on the CD site the health test label on puppy list can be misleading at first sight,  I have used a tested dog but he is not in UK so only bitches tests have been verified so just shown as dam health tested.

Can we keep this on topic and answer the original questions please.

> I have used a tested dog but he is not in UK so only bitches tests have been verified so just shown as dam health tested.

There are thousands of 'non UK' dogs listed with us and health test results are included WHEN either the owner or the breeder using them at stud sends us copies of their official health test documents. As previously stated, we are more than happy to add any officially documented result. You just have to ask :)

Ok no problem wasn't aware of that

No - ask the owner to test their bitch if they are unwilling..i'm worried!