Hi all,

I am wondering if anyone could offer some advice please.

I have recently acquired a 6 year old Manchester Terrier and don't really know his past history. Since Saturday I have made the switch to Raw Food, Nutriment, which is pre-prepared complete Raw Food (Im too worried about missing out vital vitamins and minerals doing it myself). All my dogs are fed Raw and I don't think I could go back to commercial dry food as the benefits have been amazing!

However, since changing the MT over he was doing OK Saturday, Sunday and yesterday morning, however yesterday evening he started eating grass and passing wind a lot (REALLY smelly ones!) and this morning I have found soft, jelly like poo's, his tummy gurgles a lot too. Is it possible the raw just doesn't suit him and is too rich? Or do I persevere with it and see how he does over the next week?

My oldest that I switched to raw was 3 years and she has been fine but obviously my MT is 6 and an older dog.

Thank you all!

I have previously switched a 13 year old to raw with no problems, so it certainly can be done.

Which variety of the Nutriment have you been using? Have a word with the people at Nutriment, they are very knowledgeable and helpful, but I'd probably start with one variety and stick with that for a while before introducing the different varieties. I'd maybe try the Duck variety as it doesn't contain the beef tripe/kidney/liver etc that the other varieties do.

Thank you Pedlee. I have been feeding him the Chicken. I did notice that this batch seemed to have Tripe in it but I am sure the last lot of Chicken I have didn't?! Or I'm going mad?!

I have defrosted Duck today so will give that a go.

I think the only varieties without the beef tripe/kidney/liver are the Duck and the Salmon (which also contains chicken).

They do have a "Just" range which contains only the meats/bone specified, no veg or extras.

I have one dog that CANNOT cope with 100 % raw. If she is fed only raw for a few days she gets an upset stomach. She has to have abut 60 % raw and 40 % complete, then her stomach is perfect. That's despite being put onto raw at 8 weeks.

My understanding of moving over to raw is that you can expect a 'dodgy' stomach for the first couple of weeks whilst their stomachs adjust to it.
Also to keep it to just chicken to begin with and then introduce one different type of meat at a time.
Good luck!

Is there a reason they put so much tripe in everything? What are the actual benefits of it? I cannot stand the putrid smell (although I am sure they love it), I wonder why Natural Instinct don't put Tripe in all theirs? Can anyone enlighten me on that?

Sorry for all the questions!

I will persevere with it, I just know he obviously has tummy ache because he is a bit down in the dumps today.

This link should explain the ingredients used by Nutriment: http://www.nutriment.co/understanding-our-ingredients/

Why not speak to them if you are unsure?

I've been raw feeding since late 2007 when I introduced it to my (at the time) 6 month old HWV and my 6 year old Golden retriever (who had been fed good quality kibble since a pup).  Both dogs took to it with relish (although I did start to freeze chicken wings in order to encourage them to slow down and chew properly!)  I did notice some of the jelly like poos from my goldie - but having done lots of research prior to launching the new diet I was forwarned that this might occur.

Regarding tripe - by which I mean green tripe - just google nutritional benefits for dogs and you will come up with lots of reasons to put up with the stink :-)  I defrost my dogs minced meats (inc the tripe) overnight in a covered bucket and the dogs love it so much - you won't have to put up with the smell for long!  Don't ever cook it (gulp) firstly it will destroy all the enzymes etc that make it so beneficial for your dog's gut - secondly, if you think raw tripe smells bad .............. cook it and you may have to move house!

And to think tripe and onions was a popular dish not that long ago.

I'm pretty sure the tripe in the butchers has been cleaned, "bleached" and cooked before it goes on their counter :-)

Yes tripe for humans as you say Alysce has been cleaned bleached etc to make it suitable for us and doesnt stink like the original green tripe lol thank goodness. When feeding dogs it must be green tripe.

Most dogs adjust and thrive on raw it can take some alittle while to do so. Feed one protein at atime ie pure chicken then move on to another that way he should adjust and you will know which if any causes a problem.

Would recommend trying slippery elm/tree barks powder to help with this oldie, brill stuff. Took one of mine a few weeks to settle on raw, we went cold turkey, and he took a while to be able to digest bone, but all soon settled. I would just say avoid anything fatty/oily, just stick to chicken and tripe and give it a while. I personally don't like to mix raw and kibble but hey if it suits the dog it suits the dog, the poo will tell you when it's right!

Raw and kibble digest at different rates which is why it is not recommended to feed both together. It can cause an imbalance. I would also recommend a high strength pre/pro biotic or at the very least some good quality natural yoghurt with high cultures in it.

I have swapped one dog over to raw when he was 9 years old, he had eaten a lifetime of kibble/commercial rubbish and after an adjustment period he thrived. His weight reduced, he wasn't as stiff in his joints and his breath was much, much sweeter. The vet didn't recognise him when he saw him 8 months later ;-)

Hi all, sorry for the delay in getting back to you all!

Right, so the saga continues.

My partner is very concerned about our boy now as it would appear he has lost a lot of condition/weight in the last 6 days, he is now very lean. He is having 300g per day calculated when he weighed 11.8kg when we were at the vets about 3 weeks ago. Do you think I need to up his food?!

I have stuck to chicken formula only and this morning he did a poo that was solid and then VERY liquid. Sorry for if that is TMI!! He is also 'grazing' on grass so much one of his loose front teeth has fallen out and he has soil all over his gums!

I realise there is an adjustment period like there is with all food, I guess I was used to my ETT being fine and my Crestie was bought up on raw from weaning so I haven't experienced these issues.

I just feel bad that he is looking so lean and is clearly miserable, makes me want to pack it in but I know the benefits of raw are so great.

Yes just gradually increase the amount and he will be fine.

I keep my labs on the lean side and if you compare them to other labs they can look under fed but they are just lean and fit.

The boy Bog does need to add some bulk sometimes as he is a very active lad so does loose weight quite easily so I just adjust his food up when needed.

I don't weigh food I just go by looking at how the look and reduce or increase when necessary.

Remember he's been fed 'fillers' for the last 6 yrs.  He'll be detoxing and his tum will be trying to digest this 'natural' food.  It's never done that before and the acid won't be able to cope properly yet as this needs to build up.  He's just feeling a bit sore and yuck due to this so the grazing is just him trying to 'help' his tummy ache.
The weight loss is totally normal too.  This is because of the pure protein he is getting now.  He will loss the excess 'fat' covering he has built up on the kibble and will gain muscle mass.  This is his body now working as it should.  Dogs shouldn't have the fat covering.

I would persevere.  My oldies were the same when they first switched but after a couple of weeks, they soon relished their dinners and after a few months, they had vitality back that they hadn't had for years.  My 13 yr old, gumming on a chicken wing is one of my favourite memories of her!lol

Hope this helps you to see you are doing the right thing.  I would at least give it 6 months before deciding what is best for him.

Have you tried giving him a pre/pro biotic? I give mine high strength pre/pro biotics when their tummies are upset and it helps settle them, they also appear to be able to digest their food better and it can help to stop the runs.

I also don't weigh my dogs food, even my pup, as I increase and decrease depending upon their shape and activity levels. But I have a good idea of what they should be having in any one meal. How many times a day do you feed? Perhaps split his food up into several smaller meals so that his tummy can cope better with it?

I am trying to persevere, I poo picked today and his poo is terrible. It is soooo sloppy and mucusy, is this normal? I can also see his ribs and hip pin bones easily and his spine is starting to show, I do like lean but he is a little too lean for me. I think the food is going straight through him rather then giving him any nutrition.

I am at the vets on Monday as he is supposed to be vaccinated, however I am thinking I may have a full MOT done with some blood tests to make sure there is nothing underlying, he seems to have bad skin (scaly, black pigment with 'sweaty' feel) and eyes streaming all the time no matter how much I bathe them. Just want to make sure I have all areas covered.

I am upping his food, re the Pre/Pro Biotic, what am I supposed to buy? Pro-Kalin from VetUK? Or just some Yakult/Natural yogurt from the supermarket? I was a bit concerned about giving him dairy as I know when humans are ill dairy can sometimes make it worse.

Thank you for all your help, it really is appreciated.

Have you spoken to the people at Nutriment?

I'd be inclined to just feed one source of protein, probably the duck, and feed only that for at least a week. Not the complete food with all the veg and extras, but just duck and only duck. Chicken is often a cause of problems despite it's reputation for being gentle on the stomach and easily digested (same with rice).

I would get him vet-checked though as it sounds as if there is more going on than just a change of food tummy upset.

A lot of dogs do much better on goats milk based products. Don't know if they do a pro-biotic goats milk yoghurt. I give mine Onken high populated bacillus yoghurts but you can also give him some human probiotic capsules, a bit more expensive but they aren't all dairy based. I haven't had to use Pro-Kalin so can't comment on that.

Re his vaccinations, if he is under the weather I would personally hold off on these. If a dog is under the weather these can make things a lot worse. My vet won't vaccinate unless the dog is healthy with no underlying problems, although I don't have boosters, only puppy vacs, it is a discussion that I have had with him many times...he is a fantastic vet. I would start with getting him thoroughly checked out first and then see how and where you need to go from there.

Good luck and I hope that he improves very soon!

I spoke to Nutriment and got the following response:

It may be worth introducing him a little slower if he has been on processed food up to now. I would give him some low fat natural yoghurt for now as the probiotics will help his gut adjust. You may want to feed the raw in the morning for a few days and his previous food in the evening until he is a little more used to it. Do give us a call here or drop in if there is no improvement.

I am not keen to feed 2 different foods as I think this will possibly make him worse?

Pedlee - unfortunately they do not do a Just Duck, they only do Just Chicken, Just Turkey or Just Offal. So any other ideas?

I didn't realise they didn't do a Just Duck - probably will once the company is more established. Maybe it would be worth trying the Just Turkey or Just Chicken for a week or so then gradually introduce the Just Veg to the mix, finally getting onto the complete mix. If you do everything individually you will know what is and isn't upsetting him, an elimination diet of sorts.

There is a probiotic goat yoghurt (St Helens Farm) available from most Supermarkets which may be worth trying rather than cow's. I regularly feed my dogs a kibble meal (every 4th meal is a kibble meal) and don't have any problems. I've also fed kibble and raw together in the same meal and not had any problems despite the supposed different digestion rates.

Another thing you mentioned in a previous post was increasing the amount of food. It may be that he is now getting too much food and what with the change of diet his system can't cope so it's just coming out the other end. Maybe go back to basics and give 4 small meals throughout the day, as you would with a young pup.

> I am not keen to feed 2 different foods as I think this will possibly make him worse?

I wouldn't worry about this - my dogs are raw fed but still get the occasional kibble meal and it causes no problems (except larger amounts of poo!).  There is also no science whatsoever behind the idea that you can't mix kibble with raw so if you want to do that for a while that's ok too.

The most important thing is that you get your dog stable at this point so slowing down the introduction is good advice.  A couple of other things to consider though:

You say you got him recently - what food was he on before you got him, do you know?
Do you know that he was stable before or whether he has a history of food intolerance?

It may be worth considering that this isn't necessarily a problem you've caused, and he may have some issues you don't know about.  I'd suggest feeding a good quality kibble for one meal per day for now and feeding raw for the other.  However you could consider trying a different raw food supplier just in case the problem is with their set of ingredients.  Good luck with him

I am going to cut his meals into 4 small ones and go right back to basics.

I have no idea what he used to be fed, when I got him I had him on James Wellbeloved and it seemed to agree with him (he still had runny eyes a bit and itchiness but not as bad as now). Thinking the raw is detoxing his body and its all the toxins coming out.

Bit more info for you, where I got him from said he was in good health and no problems.. When I got him home I did a thorough check over and he has Umbilical Hernia, terrible teeth to the extent 10 had to be extracted and a fatty mass by his anus. The fatty lump and hernia have been looked at by the vet when he was neutered and had a dental, they said not to interfere with them at the moment. They put him on anti-biotics which cleared up his eyes and he was itching less, this was 3 and half weeks ago.

Off to get some St Helens yogurt.

I really appreciate all your help!

Oh poor boy, he really sounds like he has suffered with all of his health problems. I agree with you re the detoxing on raw. As you know, this is very common, especially in dogs who have been fed kibble all of their lives.

A piece of interesting reading that I have copied and pasted below for you:
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Here is a good explanation as to why a dog should not be fed kibble and raw.

So, should kibble be mixed with raw? The short answer is no, the long answer follows.


In a perfect world, no dog would be subjected to eating carbohydrate laden, enzyme-less, dead and nutrient deficient kibble. They would be eating the nutrient rich, moisture drenched, whole carcasses of animals such as deer, rabbit and pheasant etc., or the next best thing, raw meaty bones.

Kibble (all of it) contains carbohydrate either in the form of grains (wheat, rice, oatmeal etc.) or starches (potato, pea).

According to the guaranteed analysis of Orijenís Regional Red Meat, it contains a maximum of 22% carbohydrate. With Orijen considered a premium brand, I think it's safe to say that most kibble on the market contains at least 25% carbohydrate.

Of Dogs and Carbohydrate

We know that . . .

There is no known minimum dietary carbohydrate requirement for either the dog or the cat. Based on investigations in the dog and with other species it is likely that dogs and cats can be maintained without carbohydrates if the diet supplies enough fat or protein (editors note: raw meaty bones) from which the metabolic requirement for glucose is derived. - The Waltham Book of Dog & Cat Nutrition, 2nd Edition (1988)

and

Dogs experience digestive and metabolic limitations to high grain diets, which reflect their evolution on diets relatively low in soluble carbohydrates  (Clarke et al. 1990, Kronfeld 1973, Sprouse et al. 1987, White et al. 1993.)

and

From Dr. Tom Lonsdale's book Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health, Dogs have little evolved need for carbohydrates and cats have no need for this source of energy. Consequently these species produce low levels of digestive enzymes required to deal with the high starch content.

So right out of the gate mixing kibble with raw, or even feeding kibble at all for that matter, doesn't seem like such a great idea.

A Couple of Reasons Why You May Not Want to Feed Kibble and Raw Concurrently

A dog's digestive system is short (compared to omnivores and herbivores) and is designed for the quick transit of raw meat (sometimes rotting) and bone.

A short digestive system along with a highly acidic stomach means that potentially harmful bacteria (salmonella & E coli) and other microbes have little time to take up residence and proliferate and cause health problems for the dog.

A much longer digestive tract like those found in omnivores and herbivores is required to ferment and digest carbohydrate.

It would seem logical that since carbohydrate laden kibble contains no live enzymes to assist in digestion, that digestion would be more difficult as compared to a strictly raw meat and bone meal, and that the digestion of kibble would require more time.

Slower motility of the mixed kibble/raw meal through a dogs GI tract would increase the length of time that pathogens could take hold along the dogs GI tract, thereby increasing the risk of illness to the dog.

It also seems logical to me that eating an enzyme-less, dead kibble would require a dogs pancreas to work harder in order to produce more digestive enzymes to digest the excessive carbohydrates contained in the kibble, and perhaps lead to diabetes or pancreatic insufficiency later in the dogís life.

Slowly or poorly digested material tends to damage the bowel lining. Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health


Damage can occur by direct physical or chemical action of the food on the bowel. More commonly the damage is due to a change in the resident population of bacteria as a result of the poorly digested material. Harmful bacteria and their toxins affect the lining of the bowel, and if absorbed into the blood stream are harmful to other organs. With an increase in harmful bacteria there is a corresponding decrease in helpful bacteria. Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health

I got permission to post this from the author, it is a file from the raw feeding group on FB. Hope it might be helpful to you ;-)

Hairypooch - I've replied to you but this is a general comment to other readers too.

I'm not a huge fan of kibble - my dogs are raw fed - but kibble isn't the complete baddie that some of those authors would have you believe.  Some of their evangelising, and the fervent style of writing with highly emotive language is actually quite unhelpful to their cause and some potential converts are put off raw feeding well before finishing the whole book.

It IS helpful to do your research and it is useful to check material from a number of different sources but raw feeding simply isn't for every owner, or indeed for every dog.  To completely outlaw kibble from a predominantly raw diet isn't practical for everyone and dogs can cope very well with a mixture of wet and dry foods.  An owner who wishes to try raw feeding by adding a little raw meat to a bowl of kibble will not be damaging their dog - in fact there will be huge benefits to the dog such that that the owner may be willing to go a bit further.  Is raw a better option (yes, in my view) but good quality kibble is not harmful, even when it does have a higher amount of carbs.  The question over length of time to digest is moot when, with such a short digestive tract the waste from each meal is simply pushed through by the subsequent meal.  I like most raw feeders can spot the different meals in the output like rings on a tree (sorry if that's a bit graphic!)

Meals that are high in bone can cause constipation and it's something that most raw feeders have to manage from time to time.  Raw feeders will be well aware that liver is a very useful foodstuff to follow a high bone meal but in fact kibble works very well too.  Kibble - simply by virtue of it's volume - becomes an unstoppable mass moving through the intestine and can really help a dog prone to constipation.  A little kibble in an otherwise raw diet can work well for puppies - it makes them sleepy - just like a large pasta meal can do the same for humans.  Giving a pup a little kibble with their last meal of the day will assuage hunger pangs through the night and help a pup sleep more soundly... Those are just a couple of examples.  As I've previously said, I'm not a big fan of feeding kibble exclusively and I much prefer a predominantly raw diet for my dogs (I don't buy pre-prepared commercial raw mixes such as the one the OP is using but make my own) BUT kibble can have it's place in a dogs diet, and an owners lifestyle, to the detriment of neither, and benefit to both.

This OP needn't feel pressured into rushing the transition from one to the other.  Many dogs will transition very well but the unknown medical history of this dog, the lack of food history, coupled with his fragile gut and immediate weight loss, might be a good reason to exercise caution in this case and slow it down.  Kibble will not be doing any harm in this boys diet during this transition phase.

I understand and respect your viewpoint :-)

I was merely giving some information that may, or may not be useful to the OP.

I am not going to participate in a kibble versus raw food diet here as it will not be helpful to anyone.

I have my own views as does everyone who chooses to feed kibble or raw and respect everyone's point of view. We all do what works for us and more importantly, our dogs.

Excellent post DAB :)

Well the Raw vs Kibble is most certainly a minefield..

I would love to make my own meals up for my lot but I find the convenience of the pre-packaged stuff a lot easier for me (I realise that's a bit selfish but sometimes convenience rules!)

Just slightly off topic.. what tests would you have done by the vet? What Blood Work? (Bearing in mind his insurance will not pay out for this as they class it as pre-existing).

I really appreciate your help, the knowledge on this forum is brilliant :)

You may have mentioned it previously, but what do you know of his history and would you be able to speak to his previous vet at all?

I think a full MOT at the vets would be a good idea - you'd hate to think you'd missed something.

I have found pro-kolin very effective in the past but have not had to use it very often.

Whilst my dogs are raw fed predominantly - they do get the occasional meal of kibble for the sake of convenience.  This may be when they are being looked after by friends or family who are not happy feeding raw.  They are also fed raw with kibble added from time to time.  Usually when their chest freezer is nearly empty and I am waiting for an order!  One of the reasons I am so keen on green tripe is that it's chock full of the enzymes that assist them in the digestion of all the food types they encounter.  Terrible opportunists my girls!

I notice that Natural Instinct do a ready made option that may be of interest to you  http://www.naturalinstinct.com/products/Special-Diet.html#reviews  - not cheap but luckily he's not a huge boy is he?

I use the same supplier for my raw as DAB and the quality has been superb through all the years I have used them.  I mix my own food because I like to know exactly what's in there and it's also a good deal cheaper to do so :-)

How are things going now K9-Em?