Ok this is a bit of a saga but i'll keep it simple.....

Basically, I sent deposit for a pup before they were even born and actually paid in full before collecting said pup. The breeder was well aware she was my foundation bitch and I was intending to show (since qualified for Crufts 2014 yay and set up own kennel name!) Anyways, nothing was ever mentioned about endorsements and in the email I got (again before I sent my deposit, I can prove dates etc as bank transfer) the email states

"To confirm:
Puppies will be K.C registered, Have full pedigree papers, Have the first injection, Health check, Puppy insurance, Micro chipped, Food/Voucher, Info pack."

No mention at all of endorsements, and in fact the works full pedigree papers seem to indicate no endorsements. Yet on the day I drove down to collect my girl (750 miles round trip!) I was given a contract to sign which states endorsements are on and will only be removed in specific conditions, very specific...i.e agreeance in which stud is used. Now here is the problem, I prefer one line of my breed whereas she is totally against my line, again this was discussed before I put my deposit down. And I will only use the line I like as I have already purchased my stud dog too and will import in a 5-6 years time to get fresh blood. And by using the line I want to I then keep my options totally open as both are unrelated to almost all other dogs in the UK!!

I clearly had no choice but to sign that paperwork but KC are now saying that if the breeder refuses to remove them (which I have a horrible feeling she will as she is so anti-my choice of stud....then basically tough!

HELP!!!

The KC Endorsement pamphlet states:

"If an agreement regarding the removal is not reached, the Kennel Club is then prevailed upon to intervene in what sometimes can be a very difficult situation, especially when there are conflicting views on whether the breeder advised the purchaser of an endorsement at the time of sale"

To me time of sale was the time I paid in full??? Kennel Club are saying no Time of Sale is date you collected. But the email I got from the breeder clearly states £75 initial deposit and then £125 secondary deposit then becomes non-refundable. So surely when I paid second deposit and subsequently paid full amount I had "bought" the pup.

Dictionary definition of "sale" - sale  (sl)
n.
1. The exchange of goods or services for an amount of money or its equivalent; the act of selling.
2. An instance of selling.
3. An opportunity for selling or being sold; demand.

I'm sorry but there are so many things wrong here.

1. The breeder accepted a deposit before pups were even BORN?!!! Speechless here.
2. They then wanted a SECOND deposit? Cannot believe this. I among many others would NEVER ask for or accept a deposit at ALL. There should be nothing definite until day of collection in case EITHER party changes their mind.
3.You then paid the remaining price BEFORE collecting the puppy? Contracts will be signed on the day of collection from most responsible breeders and that will include endorsements (most of us will endorse the entire litter including pups kept by ourselves), so had you not paid anything you could easily have pulled out then if you were not happy. And with the distance involved etc, you should perhaps have asked to see the contract in advance -or have been offered it when you paid.
(Next point is a minor point but breeder having given first injection often presents a problem.)
4. You've then BOUGHT your own stud dog already? That to me seems really premature (neither he nor the bitch may fullfill their early promise, you never know), not to mention incredibly impractical. You will only get the use of him once on your own bitch, then you will have his daughter and can't use him again. It's far preferable to go out to stud.

And finally, if you trust this breeder enough to want one of their pups as a foundation bitch, like the lines well enough, don't you trust their judgement on what lines goes with theirs and which does not? If they have strong objections to one line being used, do they perhaps not have a good reason for this? The breeder of a foundation bitch should be somebody you trust which can become your mentor and for years in the future help you plan matings etc.

So I'm sorry but my answer would be, if you like the bitch and the breeder then trust them and take their advice on what dog to use in future. If you don't trust them, then you have to think again and maybe this bitch isn't the one for you.

Has the breeder given reasons for not wanting you to use your choice of stud?

There may be incompatibility for health reasons, or other reasons, which make the breeder steer clear of those particular lines.

Surely, there are other lines that you and the breeder could come to a compromise on, which wouldn't preclude you developing a line of your own?

ETA -   Agree with the points Marianne made.  

Personally, I have never taken a deposit.  That way both parties can change their minds, right up until the pup is exchanged.   And certainly money would not be taken before the contract was agreed and signed.

Really though, you liked the Bitches lines enough to buy her,and trusted the breeder enough to buy her.    If you don't trust her judgement on this, perhaps you shouldn't have bought the bitch?

Personally, I would have walked away from a breeder who was taking several deposits (part payments) even before I'd seen the pup and the contract, but that's just me ;)

A tricky one. It's always worth bearing in mind that legal definitions and dictionary defitions aren't always the same. That said, I would have thought that the sale of the pup was finalised when the sales contract was signed and the registration documents given to you when the puppy came physically into your possession - ie when you collected her.

If the KC's decision differs from your view, you could always have a litter to the stud dog of her choice so that the endorsements are lifted, then after that you're free to have a litter using your choice of dog. Has she told you why she is against 'mixing' your choice of line with hers? There could be an incompatability issue that she knows of but that you don't.

Very odd.

I would not see the 'Sale' as complete until you picked up the puppy or 'Goods' as it were.

I always endorse all of my pups - even those I keep myself, to lift an endorsement takes a simple letter and can be lifted within the week, this then prevents breeding should health checks not be to the breeders liking etc. I think the breeder is well within her rights to not want her lines bred to lines she clearly does not think will work with hers,presumably she has been breeding for years and your foundation bitch is carying her name and all her effort - I would be sure that 1. my pup was endorsed incase you tried to breed without acceptable health results and 2. ensure the stud was one of whom I approved.

If you're hell bent on using the sud you bought then why not plan to use him on your bitches progeny? or perhaps come to an agreement to go with the breeders choice and perhaps use your stud on a future litter?

The only thing that sounds off is if the breeder had originally said you could use your intended stud and then backed out - do you have proof she had agreed ?

Most good breeders endorse their puppies as a matter of course, to ensure that the new owner breeds in accordance with breed ethics (health tests, age of first litter etc), so I would not expect it to figure in advertising etc.

Now if you signed at time of purchase telling you about the endorsement, then you cannot have it lifted.

Surely you should want to keep on good terms with the breeder and be there to continue her work in continuing the lines they have sold you?

Why not go with her suggestion, or reach a compromise for the bitches first litter.

They breeder is likely to have more experience with her own line than you, so keep her sweet.

Once the endorsement is lifted you are then free to do as you wish with any future breeding.

I would not see the 'Sale' as complete until you picked up the puppy or 'Goods' as it were.


Have to agree if for no other reason until you have the pup in your arms you can not be sure you have it - the bitch could have sat on it or it could contract an illness or be injured at any time before you pick it up.

Why you decided to pay a deposit on an unborn pup I find difficult to understand as there may not have even been a bitch in the litter - there may not even have been a litter.

As to taking the advice of the bitches breeder that is what most would want to do - all new breeders need a mentor and you obviously trust her breeding ability so I do not really see the problem.

Unfortunately it's not as easy as that, I really wish it was...by lines I mean the breed has recently been split (i was trying to be diplomatic)....I discussed that I wanted my pup to be re-registered on to the new breed register and there was no issues with that at the time. I have proof of this in email.

The breeder (well one of them) has now made it clear she is not happy that I want to change her on to the new breed register, but has said she will sign the papers when she "has time". My bitch has been entered into the South Wales show under the new breed, spoke to KC about this and said it only takes 10 days to confirm the switch so no real issues there as long as she does actually sign the papers and forward them on.

She is totally against the breed split and actually I am too HOWEVER 99% of the dogs on the current register will be moved or already have been moved on to the new register. By leaving her on the current register I then have zero options for studs other than importing which I am not ready to do yet as I want to use her progeny against an import or take her abroad for a mating. Plus I do want some competition when going to shows being the only entry and coming first isn't exactly great lol.

The pups will not be in her name as I have my own Kennel Name as I starting my own lines. And like I mentioned I have no issue about endorsements being on initially, I endorse all my pups. My issue is that I paid a deposit and in full based on the email I have and phone discussions (I have witnesses) which clearly states full KC papers and no mention of endorsements, which to me says he was happy to send my particular pup off with no endorsements. Yet when I arrive to collect the pup I have no choice but to sign as I have paid all money and at the very least my deposit would then become non-refundable which is a whole other issue. Hope that makes more sense

Initial deposit was paid pre-birth as there was a waiting list. This was refundable should there not have been a pup to meet my requirements. The second deposit was paid when she was around 3-4 weeks old when she was selected for me based on temperament and show potential. It then became non-refundable.

The money was paid in full when she was 5 weeks old. 

And I absolutely do want to stay on good terms with her breeders...they are fantastic breeders! And their dogs are amazing. But I cannot control the way the breeder has reacted to me requesting her to be changed on to the new register even though she knew this beforehand. It's a complete 180 in all honesty

And aside from that.....I always provide a copy of the contract to potential new owners before they even come to see the pups or place a deposit...surely all you breeders do that too? You wouldn't just take a deposit and payment then bring out a contract with details not previously discussed or details on it that contradict what you have already agreed?

My main concern is not that she has endorsements...that's fine in itself...however I worry she will refuse because she is so against me moving her on to the new register hence why I need to look at the legal implications.

I absolutely have the best intentions at heart and will do the very best by my girl, after all she is a loved family member first and foremost.

Is the breeder moving her own stock onto the new register?  If so I expect they will do it enbloc along with yours.

Only you know why you paid for the pup before collection but if you were unhappy when you collected the pup and discovered that there was an endorsement you could have refused the pup or made sure the contract said what was required to lift the endorsement.

I really am puzzled as to all this misunderstanding when it seems it is so important that matters were clear. What did the contract say about the removal of the endorsement and did you know about it when the contracts were exchanged?

Oh and just to reiterate I was emailed a document outlining price and conditions...I took this to be the "contract" as it stated clearly what the pup came with etc and that there would be full registration. No mention was ever made of an actual paper contract...literally until I was about to leave, pup in my arms and it was placed down on the table for me to sign. My friend was with me so I have a witness to everything.

No she is dead against the new register....but again I have an email that states they were not sure what they would do about their own dogs but both of us had clarified with the KC how I went about moving my pup onto the new register.

I literally only sent the payment as I didn't want to be carrying about all that money, no other reason other than that.

Are you saying that you were not told about the endorsement and that it is not in the contract - if so then the KC will lift it regardless of the breeder but if it was explained to you and you signed to say you agreed then it is very unlikely except as your breed is in flux at the moment they just may over ride the breeders wishes but I would not hold you breath.

Yes and in hindsight I probably should have, however, I wouldn't have gotten my deposit back as it was non-refundable...and perhaps I would've had a fight to get the rest of my near £1000 back. £1000 very hard earned and long time saved pennies I may add. I'd just driven 350 odd miles to collect my pup, been at Crufts in the morning meeting one of the breeders as she was there showing my pup's grandmother and uncle. We sat discussing the registration changes and she was well aware I was going to move her.

I was under the impression everything was crystal clear before I even sent the deposit that's my issue....she has done a 180 on me and left me high and dry.

And regard to the stud dog being already here, I took a gamble, he wasn't even planned. Became available, great lines, I know his parents and grand parents and I'm more than happy that there is great potential there but if for whatever reason neither makes the cut then they will not be bred, they are pets first and foremost and I will always do right by them.

Oh here is another random question -

My contract, the sire and dam are co-owned, but only one breeder has signed my contract? The other one was of course at Crufts that day.

Basically I was not told about any endorsements at all...I received an email asking for the deposit to secure my pup and i that it outlined details....and to quote

"To confirm:
Puppies will be K.C registered, Have full pedigree papers, Have the first injection, Health check, Puppy insurance, Micro chipped, Food/Voucher, Info pack.

The price of a puppy will be £xxx
We are now asking for a £75 deposit this puts you on the next stage of your puppy purchase (this deposit is fully refundable should we not be able to offer you the puppy you want)
You can visit our dog at any time just ring you will be expected to visit at least once prior to collecting your puppy (over seas people this may not be possible)
Once the puppies are born and a puppy is allocated to you and you are happy with the choice a second deposit becomes due and that will be £125 and at that stage the deposits are non refundable as that puppy will be held for you.

If you would like to send a deposit I can send you the bank details or you could send a cheque just let me know.
Not to push you but I do have more people waiting for puppies than xxxx can carry (not all people that I send this email to will still want a puppy but I will get more responses from others) so the quicker you respond the better.

Regards
xxxxxxx"

That mentions nothing of endorsements and states full registration. And even when on the phone discussing it never once were endorsements brought up...I assumed they would just register my pup without them as we had already talked at great length about them etc, but leave endorsements on all pups meant for pet homes only. Plus they knew I was a responsible breeder etc so would feel confident in my choices and that I would do all relevant health check etc as  chose my breeder as they do health checks where as no other breeders do, there are reasons but i preferred my bitches damn and sire to be health checked and her sire was an import too.

However, on the day I picked her up and was about to leave I was asked to sit down to sign a contract, which had never been mentioned before that point...but unfortunately in there it did state about endorsements etc...and of course I felt obliged to sign it to be frank I didn't want to make a scene as there were another group of people there picking their puppy up too. And yeah i hindsight I shouldve brought it up then but it's only now that because the breeder is so displeased about me changing her onto teh new register (despite her already being aware of this) that i worry she will point blank refuse to lift the endorsements when the time comes.

I had a male before I got my 2 females who were compatible re pedigrees, conformation, health tests etc., I knew that I would need to use outside studs first and keep a daughter from each and he could then be mated to all 4 bitches, it didn't work out to plan, first bitch her daughter I kept wasn't breed quality when mature and second litter were all male, second bitch had 4 phantoms to different outside studs, in the end decided to use my stud following blood tests and sperm check, she had one fresh stillborn bitch and 2 partly decomposed pups, sex unknown, on day 61 from first mating

If I was starting out now I would not have got a male so early in my plans as he was 7 yrs old before he produced any pups, I wouldn't offer him at stud till he had proven himself for me [got several requests but from the wrong type of breeder]

Just an example of what can happen with the best laid plans.

I endorsed all my pups and would only lift them if they had done well in the ring or been evaluated by a breeder I knew and trusted, only one bitch met the criteria and had 6 pups in her first litter and 5 in her second, several did well in the ring.

I have to agree with the others re deposits, as I kept the pups till 12 weeks old I would ask for the price of the 2 vacs a week before the first was due, the rest was paid in cash on day of pickup, they had the contract explained at first visit including the 2 endorsement, this gave them time to back out if they didn't agree, no one ever did.

I hope you get it sorted but by previous threads we has seen on here[ there has been some really weird controlling ones] the breeders usually stick to their guns and because the buyer signed the contract after having the endorsements explained the KC won't intervene.

> by lines I mean the breed has recently been split

I dont follow this can someone enlighten me please.

>> by lines I mean the breed has recently been split
>I dont follow this can someone enlighten me please.

I'm assuming that the breed is Anatolian Shepherd which has recently been split into Turkish Kangals and Anatolians

But contracts and endorsements are the NORM -it's something most of us take for granted. I'd be extremely surprised if I bought a puppy and was NOT presented with a contract and if it was not endorsed. Doesn't matter who the person is. I bought  a puppy last year from somebody I know well, and I had bred the mother of the pup. I still had to sign a contract and the bitch is still endorsed until all requirements have been fullfilled. It was never mentioned in advance at all but I expected it all along. Even pups going to my best friends I endorse and as a KC AB I have to get contracts signed -but I did this before becoming one anyway.

But you are missing my point...I have zero issues with endorsements and contracts (all my pups go out with these too)...my issue is that because she is so displeased about me moving her onto the Kangal register I am seriously concerned she will deny my request to lift the endorsements when the time comes. So I'm trying to suss out legally where I stand in case I have to take it further. I hope she doesn't fall out with me over this as I wanted to remain friends with them both as they are lovely people and excellent breeders. We just differ opinion on moving my bitch to the Kangal register.

And I was emailed terms and what was included....it stated full KC registration...but the contract presented to me out the blue stated endorsements on.

Maybe you should give Trevor Cooper a call as a solicitor who deals with anything dog related? Will cost you a few quid to call the phoneline but might be of use for some legal advice?

The email you had was telling you what you were buying it was in no way a contract - the contract is what you signed at the time of collection and if you did not agree to the terms you should not have signed. As a matter of interest what are the conditions for lifting the endorsement in the contract because if you have met them then the breeder can't refuse and if they do the KC will over-ride the breeder and lift the endorsement.

The email, the spiting of the breed and the choice of stud have nothing to do with the basic facts stated in the contract, it is that the KC will go by and if it says that the endorsement will be lifted when the health test are done and are satisfactory then that is what will happen regardless of what the breeder says but if it says the bitches breeder will have the choice of the stud used then that is what has to happen to get the endorsement lifted.

I'll look him up, thanks!

Will see how it goes with the breeder first I hope she calms down and see's my point of view and doesn't act immature and throw all the toys out the pram!

Did you actually 'ask' about endorsements? (sorry didn't read all replies, recently had cataract surgery and eyes are sore today)  if your plans were to breed from said pup, then that would have been one of the questions high up on my list before agreeing to buy.

> I'm assuming that the breed is Anatolian Shepherd which has recently been split into Turkish Kangals and Anatolians

Thank you

We don't have full or limited registration here in the UK, it is either KC registered or its not, you get the same paperwork for all KC registered dogs, the only difference is the endorsements applied, the criteria you need to meet to get the endorsement lifted must be clearly stated, the breeder can't move the goalposts at a later date to cover the swapping breed lists if there was no mention of this in writing in the criteria to be met to get breeding endorsement lifted.

Could it be that all you are interested in is breeding?

**Mod edit - link to litter advert removed**

Nova: Interesting re the Kennel club and lifting the endorsement as I am just renewing my contracts.
So If I state my personal criteria (regardless of if i intend to lift endorsements) then if someone tries to get one lifted if i disagree, the kennel club will only do so if it agree's with my pre signed contract criteria?

As far as I have seen from KC statements they will not get involved with endorsement issues as long as the person buying was made aware of it and signed.

In the case of a death or genuine inability to contact the endorser, I assume the contract would hold weight with the KC to consider lifting.

Piratebear, I believe that as far as the KC is concerned it requires the purchaser to be aware of the conditions required to lift the endorsement and to be sure that it is understood signed by both parties, it is to be born in mind that it may be stated that the endorsement will not be lifted at all, but the purchaser must be made aware and you must be able to prove that with a signature.  Now how they would look at over the top requirements I don't know but I feel they should be sensible not require bitch or dog to have won group on 3 occasions and hold the breed CC record. Think the KC would rather not be involved but will step in if the contract is not in place and the breeder is dead and or not contactable.

According to the KC...Endorsements drop off when there's a change of ownership...

According to the KC...Endorsements drop off when there's a change of ownership...

That must mean the second change of ownership and would not help the OP

If that is the case - would or could people transfer dog to a friend, or as a partnership, mate it and then transfer it back?

If the person that has bought the dog then sells the dog, or changes ownership to say a friend or family...the endorsement drops off... Not something a lot of people want buyers to know. But a close friend of my found this out the hard way, when she seen a bitch she bred litter being registered... Not knowing there had been a change in ownership.. When she called the KC thats the info that was given to her.

So yeh, Endorsement isnt worth the paper its written on!! Typical KC for you...

Why not give the KC a call and chat it through with them? They have procedures and criteria for lifting endorsements and would be able to rule on the particular contractual terms/ payments here, as it sounds a verey complicated one.

Contacting Trevor Cooper sounds a good idea too.

If the person that has bought the dog then sells the dog, or changes ownership to say a friend or family...the endorsement drops off... Not something a lot of people want buyers to know.

This is not correct. See this booklet: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/8269/endorsements.pdf
4. Regulation B12b 1), 2) and 3) only apply where
the registered owner who originally placed an
endorsement on a dogs record, transfers the
dog to a new ownership. If subsequent
transfers take place, the endorsement
becomes a matter between the parties
involved. In such cases the registered owner
placing the endorsement shall not be
responsible if notification of the endorsement
is not given to any new owner, and may
exercise his right to decide whether the
endorsement be maintained or removed
subject to (5) below

kellystewart198,

The finalisation of the sale was when you collected your pup and signed all paperwork i.e. the endorsement, this was the time when you should have raised your concerns and if you were not happy with the wording of the endorsement you should have said so, you were perfectly within your rights to get a full refund there and then if not happy as the endorsement rulings were not made clear at the time of your deposit, fully or part paid.

It's too late to complain now, no gun was held to your head to sign and take the pup, you knew fully well how the breeder felt about the split and where her ideas for her bred pups lie.

The only person you can talk to is the breeder to see if she will bend for you ;-) there is no 'get out clause' as everything was clear prior to you leaving with the pup, full deposit paid or not, a deposit return can only be withheld if you let the breeder down and do not come for the pup, you did but were not told of the endorsement rulings, it is common sense when you buy from a reputable breeder that there is an endorsement.

It matters not how far you have travelled, some of us have travelled even further, you did not have to leave with the pup and signed endorsement in hand, that was your choice alone to continue.

Sorry to say so but, if the breeder is reluctant to allow you to do as you have planned you should have got a pup from another breeder.

There really is no point complaining after you have signed on the dotted line, you have legs which could have walked away, everything is legal here, you took the pup after signing that endorsement no matter what your impression was prior.

> If that is the case - would or could people transfer dog to a friend, or as a partnership, mate it and then transfer it back?

It isn't the case the KC clarified that lack of notification of endorsement to a subsequent owner does not invalidate the original endorsement, as long as it was originally placed properly (the breeder has soemthign signed) then the endorsement will stay.

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/asp/TNCS/index.asp

"4.Regulations B12b 1), 2) and 3) only apply where the registered owner who originally placed an endorsement on a dog's record, transfers the dog to a new ownership. If subsequent transfers take place, the endorsement becomes a matter between the parties involved. In such cases the registered owner placing the endorsement shall not be responsible if notification of the endorsement is not given to any new owner, and may exercise his right to decide whether the endorsement be maintained or removed subject to (5) below.
  5.The General Committee reserves the right to impose, remove or Maintain any endorsement. In particular the General Committee reserves the right to impose an additional endorsement "not eligible for entry in any event held under Kennel Club Rules and Regulations, nor any unlicensed event recognised by the Kennel Club"."

I hate reading posts about owners trying to lift endorsements placed by breeders!
It all makes the process seem very vulnerable when many of us rely on the KC to uphold something we feel strongly about.

In my very abused breed where many,if not most, buyers want a "cash back" aspect to go with their puppy, I need the KC to back me up.

I agree Tooolz, in this case especially, everything was signed before the pup was taken.

All of us who breed hold dear what happens to our lines. It is the most important reason why we breed.

If the person that has bought the dog then sells the dog, or changes ownership to say a friend or family...the endorsement drops off..

Glad to hear the above is nonsense, but it could come as a horrid shock to the second owner if they tried to register a litter - still I suppose they should check it out before using the animal for breeding.

Tell me do endorsements appear on the documents you get from the KC when ownership is changed?

Yes the endorsements will be on the documents that went with the dog of course too, as they had already been applied before the seller got them.

This is why a contract is essential....clearly stating that there are endorsements and why you have placed them.

This contract should ideally be given to the prospective owner ten days before pick up of the puppy, to give a "reasonable time" for the new buyer to read, understand and seek advice upon the contract.

the kennel club 100% lifted the endorsement when the dog was sold on... The only reason the breeder found out is because she seen it in the KG...

the endorsements will be on the documents that went with the dog of course too, as they had already been applied before the seller got them.

So there is no way the owner of a dog would not know there were endorsements on the dog they own no mater if they are first owner or third - the only thing with a future owner is they may not know what the requirements are to have it removed if indeed the breeder would remove it for someone they may not have met.