I have been fostering a young dog. Possibly a cross between a GSD and a Belgian Shepherd. He is reactive but until today i had not thought he would bite anyone. I took him to a local garden centre for a bit of socialisation. I was standing  talking to a friend and he was being fairly good, a bit barky but he let my friend pet him and was standing fairly calmly. Then a parent with a young child appeared and he started barking hysterically at the child. I quickly moved him away and managed to get him calmed down. I was just going back to the car when a man pushed past, very close to Henry. he leapt up, barked and grabbed at the man. Luckily he had a leather jacket on but there was a mark on the leather from his teeth. The man wasn't very happy but did calm down and is not going to take is any further.

I am devastated that I put Henry in this situation in the first place so he felt the need to bite, and that I put other people at risk but I thought I was getting on well with helping him not be so reactive. I just don't know what to do now. If I tell the rescue they will probably want him back and worst case scenario will put him down. He is a very nice dog and I am sure if I can get on top of his training he will be a lovely, if lively pet for someone. I had even been thinking of keeping him myself.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Obviously I will have him muzzled now if I take him out in public. I would appreciate any advise on how best to work on the reactivity. It seems to be mainly men, children and other dogs. :( And bikes, and cars. :(

I have been rewarding him for calm behaviour when he can see one of his triggers but trying to keep him far enough away so he doesn't react. Telling him off doesn't have any effect and I have always believed that it isn't the best way to deal with this sort of problem. However a woman came up to me having seen the incident and told me I should have growled  at him and made him lie down. I am sure that is wrong. Too much like CM.

Or should I just give him back to the rescue? or have him put down myself? I would hate to think he might actually bite someone.

Please get in touch with BSD rescue rather than return him to the other rescue if you cannot keep him -you need help from people who know the breed. Half GSD doesn't matter. Or keep him, but be prepared for a LOT of work -we could be talking years here with nothing but baby steps. It's not at all unusual what you describe.

DEFINITELY no telling off. Had you told him off and made him lie down and especially growled at him I can almost guarantee YOU would have got bitten. This is not aggression, it is FEAR aggression and scaring the dog is the worst thing you can do. So good on you for not doing so!

Whereabouts in the country are you? PM me if needs be. There are people who can help, but Malis don't work like GSDs or indeed like many other breeds, and you are almost certain to be dealing with a half working dog which makes it even harder.

It wasn't a very good place to take him, he wouldn't have felt very comfortable in a place like that.

Remember young dogs are all about hormones twice as likely to react with testosterone raging and their natural instincts than at any other time, even with good socialisation it can all take a side track until adulthood, it's the time to be even more careful with handling and socialising, so it was a bad move taking him somewhere like that, you've learnt that now, so chin up. ;-)

Just take things very slowly again as we often have to with high energy dogs going through adolescents, you go back to training as you would a puppy, it's when the long line comes out for me if a dog is high energy to protect them and others and training has to be up'd again from the beginning, introducing people and situations very, very, slowly with much reward, and as Goldmali has said no telling off. (You'll have to have Goldmali on speed dial :-D )

Newyork you'll be ok with him as long as you don't put him in situations like that again, don't have him pts he's young and will change as he gets older if he is trained properly, but only in the right hands. He's not been socialised at all by the looks of things, (the muzzle is a good move for now) if you're worried about handling him (and many would be) just, let him go to a BSD rescue as G has said, but if you're willing to work slowly with him, do so, he needs someone to for his sake.

You need to be stern but calm, no aggression or telling off EVER! Are there any classes near by (praise and reward based only) you could start taking him to after talking to the trainer of course to see what you could start him off with? It would do you both the world of good and be a really good start to socialising with dogs, people and getting a grip on his training.

I have been rewarding him for calm behaviour when he can see one of his triggers but trying to keep him far enough away so he doesn't react. Very good. :-)

Look into whistle or clicker training with him also, much more effective and something for you both to learn from scratch together. :-)

> Whereabouts in the country are you? PM me if needs be. There are people who can help, but Malis don't work like GSDs or indeed like many other breeds,

I have just moved to Manchester. Unfortunately now too far to go to the clubs I used to go to. I am starting to realise just how difficult this might be. I always thought I was fairly dog savy but this guy reacts so quickly. He takes me by surprise.

> It wasn't a very good place to take him, he wouldn't have felt very comfortable in a place like that.

He has been there before a few times and seemed OK there.

> Remember young dogs are all about hormones twice as likely to react with testosterone raging and their natural instincts than at any other time

I know castration is not recommended for a young dog but would something like the superlorin implant help to get him over the teenage months?

> Are there any classes near by (praise and reward based only) you could start taking him to after talking to the trainer of course to see what you could start him off with?

I  have just moved house so am not sure about what classes there are locally. I haven't managed to find any yet.

> Look into whistle or clicker training with him also, much more effective and something for you both to learn from scratch together.

I have done clicker training with my other dogs will start with him too.

I know castration is not recommended for a young dog but would something like the superlorin implant help to get him over the teenage months?

Superlorin should not be used on immature males, from the NOAH site"For the induction of temporary infertility in healthy, entire, sexually mature male dogs."

I recognise this behaviour....!
It is that of an over-stressed dog, whose stress levels have slowly built up to over-steam.  I have experienced the exact same with both of mine at one point or so.

When my rescue Malinois did the EXACT same thing - really - she was being cared for by my sister, who had no real experience of stress in dogs, although she has had far more experience with owning and handling dogs than I, and over a longer period. I questioned her carefully and she admitted the dog had "gone off on one" barking and lunging at another dog, only 20 mins beforehand. I knew that was probably enough for the dog to have high stress and cortisol levels, resulting in an overspill.

The way my sister was dealing with these explosions was to remain rock solid, maybe telling off the dog, but also refusing to move until the dog was "calm". This is not the way to deal with it - when a dog goes over threshold in this manner, it needs to be removed asap, to allow any stress to dissipate, and completely avoid any other potentially stressful encounters for a while afterwards, and then needs a great deal of attention to stress levels in general and how to reintroduce the day to day issues to the dog so it learns to cope.

That incident really frightened my sister, as she had GSDs previously - another example of the difference between Belgian Shepherds and GSDs.

I've been managing similar behaviour with my existing dog, a BSD cross, for the last 7 years; and also this rescue now she lives with me. In fact she is a great deal calmer and less stressed than she was when with my sister, to the extent that she no longer paces in circles and needs half as much food as she used to She was burning up food through stress. She has not, and will not, repeat that behaviour again.

I'm struggling to articulate all of this; but I do know, OP, what it's like and how it feels.... it's quite a shock. But learning more about stress thresholds, stress in dogs generally,  understanding my own dogs' cues and body language, plus some excellent training methods (the "Look At That" game) has helped a lot, and best of all, I know for sure neither of mine will ever do that again, and I know this because I now understand it.

I'd steer clear of castration or anything that takes his testosterone levels down. He is probably fear aggressive and losing the testosterone could make him more fearful, although its presence will also be making him more reactive (in terms of speed and duration of reaction, but it  does not affect/create the fear itself).

You could consider zylkene, just as a way to take the edge off. I totally agree with Goldmali that you need to be talking to Malinois breed specialists ( it occurs that he could be a dutch shepherd) with regard to training and handling- don't get help from anyone unless they have great knowledge of these specialist breeds. I also agree about punishment- that way disaster lies.

Good luck. If you can commit to the dog he is better off with you, but it will be hard work.

You could also check out Grisha Stewart's Behaviour Adjustment Training (BAT)- she is good on thresholds and her training accommodates both fear reactivity and reactivity born of frustration- which can look similar if you don't know. Sje is also good on trigger stacking and how a series of triggers, of which we might not be aware can push a dog over the edge. Sounds like your boy was already in a state of high arousal having dealt with the kiddie, when the guy pushed by him and bam..

I don't know any trainers in the Manchester area offhand but will ask around. You would probably be best off with one to one training for the foreseeable future, NOT a class situation. In the meantime, MsTemeraire has gone through the same thing very successfully so make use of her experience. :) I would not recommend castration until older, as it could potentially make a dog like this a LOT worse. With two problem dogs of my own breeding, both had Suprelorin to start with to see how they would react, that was at about aged 2 ½, then castrated aged 3.

thanks for all the replies. I am feeling a little more hopeful today. Unfortunately it looks like the decision about castrating him will be out of my hands I have just had a call from the rescue to see how things are going and they said they are having some dogs castrated this week and want to get him done at the same time. I did say I didn't think it was a good idea just yet but it is their policy. :(. I did ask if I could adopt him but they won't allow me to adopt him before he has been done .

MrsTemeraire do you have any information about the look at that game? I have not heard of that before. Any information you can give me about stress would be greatfully received,

Hate to say that I think the rescue are being extremely short-sighted. If he is fear aggressive and given his breed type, just the experience of putting him in for this procedure could have a knock-on effect. I'm afraid that the rescue policy on castration is one of my little bugbears, I see the reasoning, of course I do, but in this case they should really think again. They could actually be creating a problem.

Anyway, I may be a lone voice on this..interested in what others have to say.

That's AWFUL! What a terrible, terrible rescue -not putting the dog's well-being first! And clearly not trusting the people they rehome to either!! :(  Maybe they need to up their vetting process if they can't trust people they let have a dog to not breed from it! Castration at a young age is going to make this dog a lot more difficult. That's if it even happens -I can see this dog freaking out at the vets and being assessed as "dangerous"....... :( :(

Anyway, I may be a lone voice on this..interested in what others have to say.

You're no lone voice, this is the worst thing that could happen. It is potentially going to make this dog extremely hard to handle and no amount of training and re-socialising is going to allay his fears if neutered too early. The rescue alas are only interested in stopping procreation, I understand that with the state of overpacked rescues but...........

However, using the phrase young dog, I/we have jumped on him being an adolescent, we don't actually know how old he is exactly, although if he is fear aggressive it won't help whatever age he is, he'll be more stressed than ever, poor boy.

Rescues seem to go from one extreme to another, someone local to me got a 3 year old lab bitch who they were meant to spay and didn't for 2 years, they risked this bitch off lead on walks in season and I was always telling them off for it. How did they get away with that, the rescue just let them go under the radar, probably because they looked trustworthy?

I wish that some rescues did not have a blanket rule re:young male neutering, they should look at the dog and the owner first. Although rescues sometimes match dog and owner wrongly, which is why I like breed rescues, far more fussy as they understand their breed.

> I/we have jumped on him being an adolescent, we don't actually know how old he is exactly

He is believed to be about 6-7 months old. Still has a bit of growing to do judging by the bone on his legs. I think I will tell them he has an upset tum to avoid neutering this week. As he is living with me they can't disprove it. Will give me a bit of time to work out what to do. I haven't told them about yesterdays incident but I bet they will see castration as a way to solve that if I do tell them. I will keep it quiet.

OMG 6/7 months is terribly young to castrate at all, let alone with a fearful dog of this type. Definitely agree with your plan to avoid castration this time, then perhaps it will give you time to find a behavourist who can advise the rescue what a bad idea this is. Or perhaps all our BSD experts here can write letters....?

I am absolutely appalled. What the heck do this rescue think they are doing. If he had the most wonderful temperament in the world it would be bad, but given his issues it is nothing short of scandalous. Does this rescue have anyone on their staff with any qualifications/knowledge in canine behaviour?

My advice to you is scrape together as much scientific evidence as you can on neutering too young and fear aggression and neutering. Here's a link with references to recent research, you could  print it off and give a copy to someone influential at the rescue- http://www.angryvet.com/neutering-and-behavior/

You could also sign something promising never to breed the dog and give a copy to the rescue, stating the reasons you don't want to castrate.

There may be better ideas as people on here get to grips with this. I do know how pig-headed as well as misguided some rescues can be, so please don't think we don't understand the scale of your problem.

The most left field idea is to make a personal appeal to someone like the eminent vet/behaviourist Prog Danile Mills at Lincoln University and ask if he can advise the rescue.

 

> MrsTemeraire do you have any information about the look at that game? I have not heard of that before. Any information you can give me about stress would be greatfully received,

I think you're doing very well, as you've already identified quite a few triggers in him already. And as you are doing, keeping him under threshold where possible, but remember that stress does build cumulatively, so after every event where he "kicks off" you need to avoid other trigger points for a while, or stressful places etc. In some cases and some dogs, it can take up to two weeks for stress hormones to completely dissipate.

The Look At That game comes from Leslie Mc Devitt's "Control Unleashed" and is an excellent way of gradually training a dog, under threshold, to give you a Watch Me response. As you probably know, Watch Me goes out of the window when something scary/exciting appears. Keeping the dog under threshold when any of his triggers appear, and using treats and a clicker, you can allow him to Look at the scary/exciting thing, then back to you as you click for a look - the dog then looks at you wanting the treat that follows.

I know myself, if you are not used to highly reactive dogs, the first time something like this occurs, it's devastating and frightening. But that is the first step because you know now the dog CAN/MIGHT do this, so you will have eyes in the back of your head and I'd say it's unlikely it will ever happen again, now you understand that's part of his behavioural repertoire., and you can anticipate it.

Worth reading: "Stress in Dogs" by Martina Scholz and Clarissa von Reinhardt
and also learning to recognise the subtle body language that tells you when he is likely to react, and act on it immediately (if you're not already doing so).

I don't normally take my rescue Mali to any place where there are many other dogs, but it happened today that I did, and although she clearly wanted to react at times and started to, I was able to move her on and away fairly fast or redirect her, always keeping close control. I do need to work on her a lot more with this - I feel my sister's "flooding" type of action has made her dog reactivity worse... prolonging the encounter and allowing her stress levels to rise too much, when a quick march past or a U turn, holding onto her collar if needed, will do a lot more to teach her that on-lead dogs she passes in the street aren't going to give her any hassle. Does this make sense?

I can't see why rescues can't vasectomise instead seeing as the evidence strongly points to neutering having many negatives for males.

Newyork, dear, dear, dear, 6/7 months, he is but a baby, I was guesstimating approx 13-15 months as this is generally the time when many high energy dogs are sent off to rescue, as adolescence is not something many breeders talk about with the new owners, it can be a difficult time and many owners just think they have a 'naughty' dog who they cannot control. Not being told that time passes and everything changes once mature.

It would be a tragedy to neuter this boy so young, in both his breeds he's still considered a puppy at this age, I know you are under the rulings of the rescue and they probably won't budge :-( glad you are putting a stay on the op with an 'illness' this time, but how on earth are you going to keep that going? Really this breed/s needs to be 2.5-3yrs before neutering as long as he is of sound temperament. He has so much more growing to do both physically and mentally, and the good news is you have all the time in the world to make him a sound, happy dog. :-)

I think it is a good idea to gather evidence of the pitfalls of early neutering, I would also write to a few breed clubs for both his breeds and have them also back you up in writing, a rescue may indeed listen to an 'official' body, also the kennel club. You can only try......... I don't know if you will be successful but do try all you can. :-)

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">It would be a tragedy to neuter this boy so young, in both his breeds he's still considered a puppy at this age, I know you are under the rulings of the rescue and they probably won't budge <img alt=":-(" src="/images/default/sml_neg.png" class="sml" /> glad you are putting a stay on the op with an 'illness' this time, but how on earth are you going to keep that going? Really this breed/s needs to be 2.5-3yrs before neutering as long as he is of sound temperament. He has so much more growing to do both physically and mentally, and the good news is you have all the time in the world to make him a sound, happy dog. <img alt=":-)" src="/images/default/sml_pos.png" class="sml" />

Neutering at 6 months seems to be the standard with most rescues - I had to have my GR pup done at this very early age as part of the adoption contract and they did check with my vet to make sure it had been done.
I think the only way around this might be to find a vet who is willing to put in writing that this dog would not be suitable for early neutering. Not all vets push neutering at an early age. Hopefully you will be able to find one who is able to back you in this.

Try Newton Heath Dog Training Club, they are very positive and reward based, offer obedience training, kennel club good citizens, flyball, agility and all sorts.  Have a chat with Hilary Buckley there, she is a lovely lady and very experienced