This could have fitted into either Breeding or Showing, so I'm sticking it in General. :)

We all know judges at shows penalise dogs for pacing. But why do they pace? And are ALL dogs able to pace, or is it like in horses, where the gait is most definitely genetic, and only certain breeds are able to pace? I have heard it mentioned that it is genetic in dogs as well. (Am sure there was an article last year about some recent Scandinavian study, but I cannot find it now.) I have also read that pacing is simply a way to preserve energy, all dogs can do it, and any pacing dog can be trained NOT to. Here is one article I read today:
http://www.gilbertk9.com/Articles/ThoughtsOnPacing.html

I would really like to know other people's thoughts and experiences. The reason for asking is that I have 3 litter sisters. Two of them I have NEVER seen pace. The third is prone to pacing generally when out for a walk, and she will also pace in the ring unless you circle her fast first and also set off fast. Doing this she moves beautifully. She happens to be my current best bitch, my best show dog at the moment, and also the one of the sisters I want to have a litter from -and am planning for a few months time. I have to take everything into consideration here; of the sisters one is not quite as good as the other two. Two are both very good indeed, but only one has everything I want -minus the pacing then. For a start her temperament is better and that of course is just as important as looks and health! So, this is the bitch I want a litter from. The trouble is, the DOG I really want to use ALSO has a tendency to pace. If I did this mating, would I be producing a litter of pups that all will pace? Or are ALL dogs able to pace anyway? Even though you never see some do it? The article linked to above mentions that some dogs don't start pacing until older, and indeed my oldie bitch I am sure have been pacing on and off during walks just recently, i.e. ONLY since she has got old and arthritic.

If I had to find another dog to use I'd have to go abroad.

Be very interested in thoughts.

I was aware that pacing was genetic in horses, but hadn't really thought about it with dogs, in fact I hadn't seen it before until I looked after a male GR many years ago. The owner was out of the country for six months so he came and joined our family and two year old retriever when he was about three months. As he began to grow, he began to start pacing when taken out for walks. Having not seen it before, I was a bit concerned, but he dog obviously wasn't. I didn't see much of him after his stay with us and the owner decided to rehome him a year or so later, so no idea if he continued pacing as a mature dog.

Interesting article. My older girl does pace if I start off too slowly, if I set off at a smart pace she has a lovely trot. Her daughter who I don't show paces a lot, it's pretty difficult to get her to trot properly and when she does she kicks her front feet up high instead of reaching out. I never saw her father pace and he was a top winner so I can't imagine he made a habit of it!

I think it is seen as undesirable in showing because it doesn't look as attractive as a trot. As that article says it causes the sides to bow out and causes the dogs to roll.

My old boy Casey paces everywhere in his daily life. it is his standard gait. I taught him to trot for the show ring but when out on walks he paces everywhere. His daughter Ruby also paces quite a lot but not to the extent he does. Grand daughter Lily does not pace very often at all. but what I find really interesting is that the two pups I have kept have completely different gaits. Poppy is a pacer and Chance never paces. So far at least.

I have seen it said that having a short body and long legs can cause pacing as when using opposing legs the dog over reaches and the front and rear legs will touch. Pacing overcomes that tendency and is supposed to be more comfortable. However the flaw with that theory at least in my dogs is that Casey is rather long in the body as is Ruby. Chance has a nice short body so far and he is the one that doesn't pace.

There is a facebook group for discussion about Belgian structure. it might be worth joining that if you haven't already and asking for opinions there.

>My old boy Casey paces everywhere in his daily life. it is his standard gait.

My Dobe is the same. He is either pacing or running. There tends to be nothing inbetween. He can pace at a phenomenal speed before having to break into a run, and looks really silly bless him :-D He CAN most definitely trot (I showed him very briefly and used to cycle with him many years ago) but he very rarely does it naturally. By chance the ringcraft class that we used to go to was the same one that his dad went to and the man running it told me that he paced too.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-New-Dogsteps-Understanding-Cineradiography/dp/0876055218/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_3

Rachel Page Elliot says Why Dogs Pace

1.  As a result of square body structure.  They will develop a natural tendency to avoid leg interference.
2.  Can be due to injury in the loin area, or too much arch in the back which restricts action of the croup muscles.
3.  An exhausted dog will pace to rest tired muscles - known as fatigue gait.

A dog will move in the way which is easiest for him, whether it be to alleviate pain or because of habit resulting from poor comformation.

1.  As a result of square body structure.  They will develop a natural tendency to avoid leg interference.
2.  Can be due to injury in the loin area, or too much arch in the back which restricts action of the croup muscles.
3.  An exhausted dog will pace to rest tired muscles - known as fatigue gait.

A dog will move in the way which is easiest for him, whether it be to alleviate pain or because of habit resulting from poor comformation.

Unfortunately none of that makes any sense. The bitch has a lovely square body as the breed SHOULD gave -same as her sisters and mother, none of which pace. The dog who paces has a longer body. The bitch (well both) is in excellent condition, most certainly do not have an arched back (no GSDs here LOL) and I can't even imagine an exhausted Malinois LOL.

One thing that just occurred to me though: the difference between these two and other close relatives (littermates, parents etc) that do NOT pace is that both were worked a lot as pups -not by me, I hasten to add. I wonder if it could be a case of being over worked when still growing and developing bad habits to cope with it??

There is a facebook group for discussion about Belgian structure. it might be worth joining that if you haven't already and asking for opinions there.

Thanks, what's the name of it? I'm a bit reluctant to ask among breed people all over the world to not get rumours flying about, but maybe ask just in general. Very interesting to hear though that you have pacing dogs as well, so again I wonder if all are able to and some just chose NOT to. In particular interesting about the littermates! (Stunning colours BTW, never seen anything so red!!)

My GR paces and can cover a lot of ground with very little effort - but I walk really quickly so think he may have started to do it as a walk is too slow and a trot is too fast so he adopted the easiest and most effortless way to stay alongside me. I didn't realise I walked so fast until I walked with other people who commented on how quickly I walk - maybe that's why my children used to have to run to keep up with me :-)

I have no idea about the genetic side of things as he is a rescue but he can trot with a lovely straight forward movement but rolls when pacing.

There's obviously more than just the bit I've typed which are the main headings.

She says things like dogs will pace if the angulation at front and rear are unbalanced, then "If rear angulation is better, he may become a habitual pacer to keep the hind feet from stepping on the front"

If you can borrow her book, or even better the DVD (I had the VHS tape but lent it and never got it back!) then she demonstrates everything she says with toothpaste on the dogs' skeleton to show how the bones move, and then puts the dog on a treadmill - fascinating to see what she says in action!  :)

> One thing that just occurred to me though: the difference between these two and other close relatives (littermates, parents etc) that do NOT pace is that both were worked a lot as pups -not by me,

Obviously only one case but my pups are only 5 months old now and have not been worked a lot. Poppy's pacing has been noticeable for a couple of months.

Another theory I have heard is that it is an economical gait. Belgians were used like the GSDs and circled the flock like a moving fence so they were on the move for hours so a more economical gait meant they could work longer. How true this is I don't know.

>> Thanks, what's the name of it? I'm a bit reluctant to ask among breed people all over the world to not get rumours flying about

Its called Belgian Shepherd Structure discussion. There is also Belgian Shepherd Type

> I'm a bit reluctant to ask among breed people all over the world to not get rumours flying about, but maybe ask just in general.

I am sure it is very common in Belgians of all varieties. I have known several who do it. Because we all teach our dogs to trot in the ring we probably don't realise how common it is. I have never regarded it as a fault.

Interestingly I don't remember ever seeing my Bostons pacing. I will have to study them to see if they do.

Thanks West Coast, interesting so shall look into it. :)

My Bernese just walking paces, however in the ring he doesn't and is an effortless mover. Nothing wrong with his construction however it could be said he is a tad long in the back, personally i think he is being lazy and when strolling about has no means to put in the effort in to move correctly. Any form of speed and he moves with no issues..

I have one dog which paces a lot... I don't like to see it so I try to break it into a trot when I can, but it's her default gait most of the time.

I have another dog which has never paced in his entire life, but he also has a very short, fast, almost scuttling trot.

I'm sure you can work out which is which Marianne!

> My GR paces and can cover a lot of ground with very little effort - but I walk really quickly so think he may have started to do it as a walk is too slow and a trot is too fast so he adopted the easiest and most effortless way to stay alongside me.

My Flatcoat does exactly this .

I have tended to find that my puppies trot beautifully, but as they grow bigger my walking pace is not fast enough for them to trot so they end up pacing unless I power walk or trot myself.

Some have done it as habit at varying speeds, but have never had a problem ensuring they don't do it in the ring by moving off smartly, and not getting stuck up behind a slower exhibitor by giving myself a long gap before setting off with a whole class.

This is again a breed required to be square, which is not the natural slightly longer than tall default canine species shape.

but as they grow bigger my walking pace is not fast enough for them to trot so they end up pacing unless I power walk or trot myself.

Those of you that have mentioned this, do you walk on lead or offlead? My dogs are basically never walked on a lead, they always run free during walks, but the two in question still pace even though they can go at whatever speed they wish.

Pacing is how wolves run distances, in order to save energy, so maybe a dog that paces is also saving energy? Going at a different pace can help stop it, but not always. I seem to remember a Great Dane, many years ago, that was returned to the breeder. It only ever paced, which was caused byt he speed it's elderly owners used to walk at.

Primarily lead walked these days.

My OES will do it at certain speeds on lead, and when tired and slowing at the end of an extended period of free running, though it is mentioned in the breed standard so I assume that as all of the dogs over a 39 year period have done it is normal! They don't do it if they are not tired or in the ring though.  My clumbers never did it that I noticed.

> Those of you that have mentioned this, do you walk on lead or offlead?

My pacer circles as an ocd behaviour, and always paces when she does.
Offlead she does too sometimes but not regularly, and onlead she will if I walk slowly, I tend to notice it and push her out of it. I don't know why, but I really dislike watching a pacing dog, it's a stilted looking gait and doesn't look right, is that a daft thing to say?

I used to see a GSD owner in my local park way back when, who had a bitch who favoured that gait, and he'd even given it a name, he called it 'pepper-potting' and thought it was unusual.

> Those of you that have mentioned this, do you walk on lead or offlead? My dogs are basically never walked on a lead, they always run free during walks, but the two in question still pace even though they can go at whatever speed they wish.

Since you asked the question I have been studying all my dogs. I walk on lead to the fields where they can go off lead. I have not seen a Boston Pace yet. On lead they  trot but being small dogs my walking pace is probably a good speed for them to trot at.

Of the Belgians Casey and Poppy pace as a default gait on or off lead. They are both perfectly capable of trotting and do so quite often but just seem to prefer to pace. Ruby and Lily both trot a lot more than pace. When on lead they do tend to pace more but that is probably a reflection of the speed I walk at.

Chance definitely prefers to trot. I have seen him start off in a pace but he very quickly changes to a trot when off lead. om Lead he will pace sometimes but again probably because i am not fast enough for him.

> My pacer circles as an ocd behaviour, and always paces when she does.

Offlead she does too sometimes but not regularly, and onlead she will if I walk slowly, I tend to notice it and push her out of it. I don't know why, but I really dislike watching a pacing dog, it's a stilted looking gait and doesn't look right, is that a daft thing to say?

I used to see a GSD owner in my local park way back when, who had a bitch who favoured that gait, and he'd even given it a name, he called it 'pepper-potting' and thought it was unusual.

I think it looks silly but in a funny way, it makes me laugh!  Remy has always done it, I call it "Camelling" (which these days probably sounds rude!) because it's the way camels always walk.

I don't see many dogs doing it - three of mine do, both my boys and River.  Interestingly though River never used to, she's only started in the last couple of months - and she has been diagnosed with her prolapsed disc in her lower back.  I'm not sure whether it's that or because she's now always on her flexi, I suspect it's her disc though.  She will still trot sometimes, which was her usual gait but now she almost always paces.

One of our Great Danes began to pace as she got older. We thought it was because she was more arthritic and it was a more comfortable gait.
Louise