I have 3 Labrador bitches & Labrador stud.
2 months ago I took on a 11 month old Doberman dog.
The Doberman was bred by my friend, at 8 weeks he was bought for a lads 21st birthday, at 8 month he was returned to the breeder as the young man didn't want him, ( we don't know why )
My daughter then took him on.
I was not happy with this as this dog was timid & my daughter has an 18 month old child.
After 3 month this dog was ruling the roost, wouldn't walk on a lead with out jumping on & into the pram so wasn't getting walked enough, so there for being a outright rebel & out of control.
With me living on a smallholding I thought the best thing to do is take this dog on.
Straight away he loved my labs & started to settle in, I had him castrated after a couple of weeks as I breed labrador & own a stud dog.
I understand two males & bitchs don't mix.
This Doberman had a scuffle with my dog so I never let them get close again, then three weeks after his castration he started playing great with the bitches.
Then he started to play very hard with the bitches ( biting hard )
One of the bitches wouldn't tolerate this & would snap at him, he stopped with her but carried on with the other.
Then last night he nipped the bitch she snapped back & he turned on her, this went onto a full blown fight, with him coming out on top.
I hit the Doberman with the yard brush & he let go, as I was getting through the gate to get hold of him my bitch walked off & he went after her.
I dragged him off & put him into the kennels.
Thank gosh both dogs are ok.
He doent sleep with other dog's he has his own kennel & run of the garden.
So the question is what do I do now?
Do I train him to accept a muzzle & let him go out for walks with the others? (the others don't want to fight a flea)
Do I put him in the kennel & run on his own & walk him alone & only let him have the run of the garden when the others are in?
Or rehome him ?
This Domberman is scared of men or should I say most strangers.
Great with kids & play happily with them.
He also now stands wagging his tail waiting for me to let the bitch out to play.

Two thoughts straight away.  One, dobermans are not outside dogs - he should be in the house.  He'll be fine at the moment but come winter, he does not have the right coat to withstand the temperatures.  Dobes are also very people-oriented dogs, and need to be with their families - they were created to protect their owners directly (i.e. while with them, not as property guard dogs).

Second; you need professional help, I think.  Dobes are lovely dogs, very trainable, but as you've seen can be a bit OTT especially with a bad start like he's had - they need the right approach which IME, is clear boundaries with positive methods (they LOVE clicker training IME and respond to it fantastically).

He sounds, at the moment, very confused, and untrained.  He's had massive upheaval in a very short time frame, he is still a puppy, and he is of a very sensitive breed.  He's also at an age when they can become very challenging!  I'm going to guess that he probably wasn't socialised very well at the start either - total speculation on my part I know, but to retaliate by fighting to a dog just telling him back off is OTT.  I would not muzzle him and walk him with the others unless he is going to be on lead all the time so you can totally prevent him trying anything - a muzzle will just block his teeth, it won't actually teach him how to behave and he can still barge and paw and bruise with one on.  He needs to learn how to behave in an acceptable way around them and this I think is where you need the help - someone to come in, observe the body language, show you what to reward and when to step in to guide him in the right direction.

You also need to address his fear of strangers (which also leads me to believe he hasn't been socialised - a well raised dobe is friendly and soppy to everyone, and only protective when there is a clear threat) - again help is a good idea for this.  Punishment for both this and his responses to your other dogs should be avoided - it will only add stress and set up negative associations (stranger/dog=something unpleasant happening), which WILL make the situation worse.

Re. your other male - there is a chance he will never be able to be with him; male-male aggression is fairly common in dobes, more so in the US lines I think but it does happen here.

Have a look at the APBC to find a good behaviourist, someone experienced with aggression and who can read body language well, who does NOT blather on about dominance and pack leadership as that approach will not help.  A good one may not necessarily be registered with anyone (I'm not as I can't afford to as yet), but it's a good starting place.

In the meantime, how much exercise and training is he getting each day?  These guys need work to tire their brains out and it can really help with frustrated dogs or those lacking in self control.  Self control exercises specifically will help too, such as learning to wait while a toy is thrown, waiting for food, doors etc.  Also, what did your daughter do with him in terms of training and her general approach to his behaviour?  And lastly, for now - what do you feed him?

Agree with everything Nikita says, the 4 Dobes I know of (so no great experience here at all) are all very much owner velcro dogs wouldn't dream of having them outside in a kennel/run as permanent residence, they need to be with their owners.

A lot of work needs doing with this dog as already said and if you have the time/patience and the will...... great! :-)

But, I have to be honest as good hearted as you have been in taking on this dog if your breed is the Lab and in having a stud and 3 bitches, (who I would presume may indeed also be part of a future breeding programme leading to your bitches perhaps being in whelp, pups, new owners and all that breeding entails) I wouldn't wish a dog on the premises who caused stress to my bitches and stud and other visiting bitches.

I wouldn't bring in problems.......... I would focus on what I started with. (The Labs)

Dobes are a great breed, but they can be very highly strung as youngsters, I have no doubt that in another 2 years, in the right hands and with some good reward based solid training this dog will be a fabulous dog if you're willing and able the rewards will be wonderful as his problems are to do with his age firstly and lack of training. But, you could be talking up to another 2 years to have the perfect dog here..... there will be no quick fix.

For me, selfishly the Labs would come first as they are your chosen breed and the hard work needed here is going to take your focus away. This dog needs your full attention.

I would re-home this dog to someone who has Dobe experience and would be in touch with a Dobe breed club or a Dobe rescue, if the breeder is not known.

You may well be able to stretch yourself with your chosen breed and future plans and also have the time to offer this dog all he needs too, some people can work wonders, you may well be one of them :-) myself I probably wouldn't and would realise that very quickly.

Wishing you luck in whatever you decide. :-)

If the breeder is your friend could they not take the dog back?

I feed him pro plan large breed sensitive.
I was walking him twice a day am & pm for an hour or more each time, there walks are fast runs & lots of chasing etc, he loves to run.
He had never been off a lead before he came to me.
I used my girls to walk him as I thought if I was to take him out on his own he wouldn't get to run off the lead,,
He would of just ran off, now because my girls come to call he comes too.
I think you are both right that he needs to live in the house, but my stud dog lives in the house & with them not getting on I cannot have them both sleeping alone in the kitchen at night.
When he moved to my daughters he found it very hard, then to be put into a car & travel 6 hours up North with me was so so heartbreaking for him.
I have never in my life see a dog so distressed.
Once he met the girls he was so happy playing.
But now getting to big for his boots.
I really do not want to put this poor lad through another move if I don't have to.
He hadn't had any training before he came to me.
I real do wish my daughter had never took this dog on, but I feel am stuck with him now & need to make it work, I don't want to pass the problem on anymore.

I real do wish my daughter had never took this dog on, but I feel am stuck with him now & need to make it work, I don't want to pass the problem on anymore.

Fully understand where you are coming from and it is easy from a distance to make a logical decision about your now dog, not being attached and not having him looking at me makes it easy. :-)

Trouble is you cannot always fix aggression between two dogs even with the best of behaviourists, dogs decide who they get along with and who they don't we cannot always influence it even with the best tricks in the book with regards to hierarchy and adolescence, just like with people you often cannot put it right, it is what it is.......

Follow Nikita's advice and find that good behaviourist to help you out here, you will feel happier having someone at your side trying to help, things may change once adolescence is over........ but no guarantees.

I would advise that you take a step back too if you can, you didn't think about getting this dog and go out and source the breeder buying him in, you have him by default and because you feel sorry for him, not always the best reason to take on a dog, he is still young enough for you to find that forever home, over time and with careful vetting, where he can have a very happy life and for you not to have to perhaps live a life of separating dogs and living with the stress of it all.

It probably does not go down well with your Dobe being a guarding/one owner orientated breed that he is outside and the other male is in the house with his beloved owner, that is where a Dobe needs to be, so that does as already said, need sorting, it must be confusing for him and also causing him much distress, every bone in his body needs him to be with his owner, it is how he is built. This breed attaches itself to a territory to protect or an owner. (IMO, it is also why a new owner could work well for him too so that he can do what his breed trait dictates)

If he is staying I would firstly be thinking of a way to have the males in separate parts of the home you'll need to secure entrances add tall gates etc and allow this Dobe his rightful place..... with you. Then work with the behaviourist and see if you can work through this, only time will tell, for me from my safe distance I just feel it will be unfair on your other dogs as he will need you so much.

But, I also see from your point of view why you wish to try, for now I would also split my walks and walk him with the bitch he respects only, so as not to stress the others, until he matures more and you have command of his training. However, if your bitch being picked on begins to circle or act distressed I really wouldn't tolerate it no matter what my heart felt.

Wishing you the best of luck.

I only have one Dobe girl but she is very competitive when playing with my other dogs so I always keep a close eye on her and usually have to call her in.

My Chows only like to play with each other but as soon as she sees them she flys in knocking them about until one of them grumbles at her, at this point she takes offence and has a go back.  Although they are all a similar size and weight the Dobe (even at 10 years old) is much, much stronger and doesn't realise she is hurting them.  It sounds like this could be what you are experiencing.

I just accept that my girl can't play nice with other dogs even though she likes them, she does however love playing with people and will happily wear herself out with a game of fetch.

I think as a breed they do better having more people time rather than dog time. 

Your boy is very young and has had a lot of upheaval, I wouldn't let him have free time with your other dogs until you can safely recall him when he gets over the top.

I would perhaps try him on a different food - it may have no effect, however a friend of mine started her two pointers on pro plan recently (not sure which one though) and almost immediately, one attacked the other and they remained tense until she took them off it.  She tried it again, and immediately the tension returned and she had to separate them - and again back to normal when she stopped it again.

It may make no difference but could be worth trying.

Can I ask roughly where you are?  We might be able to recommend someone close by who would be a good choice to help you :-)  I can fully understand you wanting to try with him - I would.  Heck, I'd take him if I could but I'm full to the rafters!

I have a 2 year old dobe bitch and have 4 other dogs. Have had dogs all my life and I will honestly say she was so hard to train. She is very high energy and not a bit interested in sitting still long enough to listen to me. but once she reached twelve months, she began to calm down just enough to learn to stop jumping. She has a fantastic temprement but would be a lady for the chair by the fire after an hour of off lead running. I found she was at her most responsive after her walk as she was calmer.

Am in North East Scotland.
This poor Doberman is getting worse.
I cannot have him in the house because my Lab stud, he is getting more and more frustrated.
I need to rehome him.
If anyone can help me please call 01340 810881

What about letting your male lab live with your daughter,so the dobe can come indoors.This could be a temporary measure until you find the perfect home for the Doberman.

Dobermann Rescue is surely the best idea, to make sure he gets the right home ASAP. (No reflection on you, you've done your best in difficult circumstances.)

My daughter is in Manchester, pickles had stud duties.
I've spoken to Doberman rescue, the lady said she wouldn't rehome a dog with dog on dog aggression.
One of my bitches is coming into season & pickles would be more than happy to move in with her.
I have sold my house & we are moving onto our building plot next week, we are moving into a static caravan as we bulid the house, we would rather Pickles lived out side for now as he is a bit to big for a caravan,
Maybe pickles could live with girls for a short time & Doberman move into caravan with us??
or would this be unfair on him?
Plus my husband really does not like the Doberman but he goes back off shore to work in 13 days for 4 weeks.

I believe there is more than one branch of Dobe rescue. 

Male on male aggression is quite normal in the breed, especially as you say you have entire bitches coming into season.

OTT playing and stroppiness also, as he hasn't had the training and socialisation with dogs that would have helped him learn manners before he got to this age.

Although based in the South of England, Dobermanns in Need may be able to help you. They were a godsend when a pup I'd bred 8 years ago ended up as a stray and I couldn't take him in due to having a litter at the time.

http://dobermannsinneed.org/
Telephone: 01243 542545  (Before 6pm please).

There are several rescues - FOND (friends of northern dobermanns), DiN as Pedlee has said, the Dobermann Trust (who I know have rehomed dobes with dog issues, I have one of them on my books atm), and the Dobermann Rehoming Association.  Probably others too.

As you are rehoming him Lyndahall, I really would advise that you do not now move him indoors with you it will be far worse for him as he will bond and regard you and your home/caravan as his territory, great if you are keeping him and exactly as we have said the right thing, but now he is not to be yours, it would be the worse thing you can do for him mentally, unless it is really cold outside.

A tip, don't explain this as dog aggression to the rescue as he may well be fine with another dog and he does not attack all of your dogs, just the ones he wishes to higher his status with.

He's 13 months old and now he is settled with his surroundings after you having him for two months, it is very natural for dogs younger and of this age to playfight to firstly gage their place on the pecking ladder, this can then turn to real fighting to lower the rank of others as you have seen with the one bitch, and with your stud dog, unfortunately sometimes dogs will continually fight when the pecking order is not sorted by body language or a simple look, or a one time fight. Your stud dog obviously feels very threatened by him and being the stud he needs to be the alpha, so he will unlikely give in........ alas he can never win a fight with a Dobe.

If you put this dog in a home with no other dogs with someone who will socialise and train him there may never be another incident like this, if you put him in a home with a female Dobe he will be fine too or in a home with a very strong Alpha who can match him he'll get his marching orders and settle without incident.

It's basically the set up in your home which is causing the problems, which is why it is so important to think carefully about breed and the character of a dog before bringing it in with other dogs.

Dobes have a high prey drive which is why I don't agree in the breeder selling this dog to your daughter with a baby, fine once adults as they are protective of any children in their home, but as adolescents they practice their instinctual fighting and hunting skills, which are grabbing by the neck/throat and pinning down, human error and accidents happen all the time and the breeder IMO should never have allowed her pup to go to your daughters home, if she is not used to the breed no wonder she found him hard to handle. (The breeder is not the best place for this boy)

I would just tell any rescue or breed club that your stud dog will not accept him, so as for them not to rule him out, as he is too young to be deemed as dog aggressive and it may not be a truth as such under different circumstances....... ;-)

You'll have to say he is wary of men, (which can be put right) he would probably thrive in a home with an older Dobe bitch, (to slap him down) try the breed clubs (if he is KC reg, if not no point)

Lastly, (nearly finished :-D) if all else fails, vet for a new owner yourself, you now know what type of home he needs to thrive, if you are not used to interviewing and dealing with people reach out to perhaps the owners of the bitches who use your stud dog or a mentor to help you, it is imperative that he finds the right home next time.

You've done a wonderful thing in trying to help, {{hug}}but he may well be a different dog without a need to prove his worth to you and himself.

Best of luck and I really hope he is placed very soon for him, as well as your other dogs. :-)

Can you find out from your freind breeder if he has european dogs on either side of his grandparents? thats asked on a presumption his parents were traditional KC UK bred dogs, which may be a wrong presumption.

His lines are uk lines.
He was given to my daughter free.
The reason he hasn't gone back to the breeder is because my daughter didn't want to part with him so would not send him back, she wanted me to have him so she could keep in touch with him.
She loves him dearly but could not handle him.
I just wanted my daughter to not have this dog in a small house with a 18 month old baby.
I have a dog behaviourist coming to see him next week & I have also spoke to the Doberman rescue folk.
If there is any way we can keep this dog without any fights ect we would be very happy.
It is not this dog fault he is this way & yes my daughter should of never took him on, but she did & now I need to try & do the best I can to resolve this.

If there is any way we can keep this dog without any fights ect we would be very happy.

No, there is no hope at all if that, I speak with experience from 1976 & training mainly European Dobes from then, to now & with a training background going back to childood as well. I know the type very well, they would rather die (in human terms) than share their space with another male, the bitches are at risk as well

I have a dog behaviourist coming to see him next week

If its a succes  then its the first I have ever heard of, maybe read the posts below from those who've hired them.

Sillysue Date 30.06.10 07:19 GMT
I have seen a behaviourist highly recommended on this website several times ( no names)|
my poor dog was forced into situations where he was actually vomiting with fear

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/124063.html

Lorripop APBC
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/135066.html
.

I have also spoke to the Doberman rescue folk.

I think that is the most realistic thinking so far, it was my first thought yesterday when I first read your post. No idea where you are, The Dobermann trust in Blackpool, is v good, a Dobe rescue somewhere is the best thing for that dog & the best for you, by all means try the behaviourist first but please read those two posts first.
.

Surely now is the time to contact the poor boy's breeder?
If they are decent breeders, they will do their very best to help.

I honestly think that in a situation where there has already been trouble, both to your dog and your bitches, and when you are about to significantly downsize and move into a static, that rehoming is by far the best option.  If you move into the static and move the labs outside and the dobe in, then nothing has changed in terms of the dogs' relationships; they've just been switched round (although yes, dobe inside is better for him).  There won't be enough space indoors to really work on anything safely or with minimal stress, which you'll need.  Here I have two doors to my lounge, meaning that at any time, any of my dogs can go either way to leave the room if there is any tension - it's been crucial when bringing new dogs in and it really makes a difference.  In a static, you won't have that; you'll have narrow walkways and small rooms.

I've been able to work through this issue with both my boys BUT it took me 7 years to find a male that Remy would live with - and him and Linc adore each other.  If they hadn't done right from the start, I wouldn't have even tried it.

Can you ask the breeder if the following dog is in the pedigree? maybe great grandparent or great great grandparent!

Bronco Von Der Kunigundenhole at Heimdale
or
Bronco Von Der Kunigundenhole

Thanks.

To be honest, I think your daughter might be able to do more.  Yes, she has an 18mnth old child - but no other dogs.  She is not going to have a dog-dog aggression issue with him, and aggression towards other dogs in no way is correlated to aggression towards people or children. 

I'd suggest your daughter take back the dog she took responsibility for when she took it on, take him to training classes, spend time at home training him etc.  I know of people with young dogs and young families and by no means are they necessarily an incompatibility - it just depends on whether the owners have the will to work with the dog.  I think you've taken pity on your daughter and helped her out, and I think she could do more to help this dog.

The size of a house is nothing to do with how happily you can keep a dog.  We live in an extremely small house with 2 dogs, which are exercised and trained daily and are happy.  Dogs need human time and attention and training - not space. 

> The size of a house is nothing to do with how happily you can keep a dog.  We live in an extremely small house with 2 dogs, which are exercised and trained daily and are happy.  Dogs need human time and attention and training - not space.

Ordinarily I would agree but in this particular situation, I think it is going to be an issue as the space is going to be SO restricted indoors, compared to normal, and there is already a lot of tension and has been aggression.  I'm in a not-huge 3 bed semi with 9 medium-large dogs and they are all fine, but four large dogs in a static is very different, when one already has issues with the others.

Nikita, I'm not talking about the caravan (I agree with you on that one), but about the woman's daughter - she lives in a 'small house' and has no other dogs, just an 18mnth old child.  The Dobe was taken on by her mum because it was showing typical boisterous adolescent behaviour - jumping up and down on the lead, pulling etc - just sounds like normal adolescent behaviour.  There was no aggression towards people/the child (as reported anyway).  As mum the poster has kindly stepped in to help out because daughter 'loved' the dog and didn't want to see it go elsewhere - and now mum can't cope with it.  I think the person who took the dog on in the first place, knowing full well her circumstances, should try harder to make this word with training and time.

Ah, my apologies, I couldn't see the 'small house' in the OP's posts :-)

I agree a bit of management on daughters part, using tools such as child/dog gates, head collars for walking etc would make the situation perfectly normal. 

A good training class would take her and dog out of the house while Dad or even grandma baby sit.

Many people I know own dobes along with young children including having a pup/youngster with a baby.