Hello, I bought my chocolate roan cocker spaniel 'Coco' from dogs 4 us in Manchester. She is beautiful and an absolutely brilliant dog! However as we want to breed her when the time is right we wanted to KC Register her. She is currently registered with Dog lovers. I have her parents names on the paper however I can't get into contact with them due to 'data protection' but I can only register her with kc if I have contact with her breeders (which I don't) otherwise I have to spend a lot of money to register her on her own! That's even if they accept the application :| I was just wondering if anyone else has a cocker spaniel with the dams name as: Cynin bronfelen and the Sire as: Aeron king or if they know of any of them. I have been told her dad is Orange roan and mum is golden.
If someone could help in anyway I would be very greatfull! Or if you had to kc reg your dog yourself (like I may have to) it's down as 'unverified parentage' on kennel club let me know how it went and if you don't mind how much you spent on the process?
Thank you, Chantelle x

[duplicate post - threads merged]

I'm afraid you cannot register your cocker with the Kennel Club; only her breeder can do that. As she came from a pet shop it's highly likely she originates from a puppy farm, I'm afraid. Your best bet is just to enjoy her as the much-loved pet she is.

I've checked the names on the KC site and neither parent has had any health tests done.

I am surprised you have not realised that a dog from a Pet shop is the last place to go to buy a pedigree dog. They mainly come from dreadful puppy farms  some even from Eastern Europe. The Dog lovers is a made up registration with any old name put down and no chance of verified parents since the breeders are not interested in such niceties. They do not  waste ££££ on KC reg when their puppies sell without it.
Sorry if this comes as a shock -- I thought more members of the general public would be educated about pet shop puppies after the various media programmes exposing what goes on.
The best thing you can do is spay your girl and enjoy training her.

I thought more members of the general public would be educated about pet shop puppies

This isn't a member of the general public Louise - this is a dog groomer!

To Chantellemorris - please have your dog tested for PRA, whether you wish to breed from her or not. PRA causes blindness, and is very common in dogs from puppy farms. It can come on at any time from 3-6 years, sometimes after the dog has been bred (and then passed it on to the offspring). To have a dog that is totally blind by 5 years of age is heartbreaking - the Cocker my family bought in the 1960's had this.... she was also from a Welsh puppy farm. My parents didn't know better... and 40+ years have things changed? They haven't :(

You would think the farmers ha become aware of this by now and tested their breeding dogs - but NO... even though there is now a test available (there wasn't in the 60's) they still don't screen for it and still produce puppies that later go blind.... or even worse, are bred from by well-intentioned owners, and pass on this dreadful disease to even more unsuspecting puppy buyers :(

Thank you for your help jeangenie :)

Hi Louise,
I obviously didn't realise at all that they were puppy farmed otherwise I wouldn't of gone there.
I wasn't going in there to find a bitch to breed like some of you are making out. I will have ALL the tests she needs done we were always going to have her tested! And if anything comes back we will certainly not be breeding her. We're not going to bring puppies into the world which won't be healthy. People don't seem to get it? I have come on here to get advise if I just wanted to breed her to make money do some of you not think I would of done that by now? My god!

Chantelle - there is no point in having her health tested and then breeding on because her parents haven't been tested.  Puppy farm dogs are neither healthy or quality dogs.  You could potentially be passing on problems to the unsuspecting buyers of her puppies. :(  Just because she has a good temperament for instance does not mean that her puppies will have if her dam or sire are evil. :(

The RSPCA has been saying for 40 years - ALWAYS see a puppy with its Mother and that means don't buy from a pet shop.

Goldmali has given you excellent advice at the end of your other duplicate thread.

And that makes me different to the 'general public' how Westcoast?!
Yes you're right I am a dog groomer. So what?
Like I said before & ill say it again if I went in there looking for a bitch to breed do you not think I would of done it by now.. We are going to get every single test she needs before potentially breeding her. If anything comes back we won't.. Simple as that! I was just wondering if anyone had any information and you seem to be on here just to dig at people.
And also it isn't just pet shops it's the 'general public' your talking about that have puppy farms also as was exposed on channel 5 cowboy traders!
Don't bring my career into this as it really doesn't have anything to do with it and it certainly doesn't make me any different as a person.

I would hope that dog groomers have some knowledge and experience of the dog world so that they can help, advise and guide their clients as well as trim their dogs. :(

We are going to get every single test she needs before potentially breeding her. If anything comes back we won't.. Simple as that!
I don't know how to say in anymore simple language that testing your bitch isn't good enough.  You need to know about her ancestors before breeding. :(

Surely if we got her tested and the results shown she was clear of everything her puppies would hopefully be healthy? But if tests come back not clear she won't be bred.
I'm not just going to breed her anyway I came on here for info and I seem to have got it about her parentage.
We are going to apply for her to be KC registered herself as they do do that you just have to pay fees however at least I will know for sure if she is ok to breed or not as its a lengthy process and she will have all her tests and also she will get judged by two championship judges. So that's what we will do now. I can't be bothered arguing/justifying myself to people. Everyone should be assured that she will NOT be bred if she cant. Im definitely not some irresponsible person just breeding there dog for money. Thank you to the people that have helped I appreciate it.

Surely if we got her tested and the results shown she was clear of everything her puppies would hopefully be healthy?
No - genes skip generations.

We are going to apply for her to be KC registered herself as they do do that
No they don't - again - only the breeder can do that

Yes I can definitely advise clients on grooming they're dogs, people don't come to me to ask about breeding they're dog the grooming industry has NOTHING to do with breeding! It's to simply make dogs look & feel better not to give out breeding advise.
And I get what you're saying but if she does get through the championship judging stage and the vet says she's ok to go ahead (if that's the case) I really can't see the problem. Trust me like I've said a couple of times, she won't be bred if literally any little thing comes back.

if she does get through the championship judging stage

You can't enter her at a Championship Show - she's not Kennel Club registered.  And that's without considering that you need to know the health test results of her ancestors which isn't going to happen.  Sorry.

And I would certainly expect a good dog groomer not to advise about breeding but certainly to be able to advice where their client can buy a quality health tested puppy from.

No, they can. I have received the letter for application through the post this morning it's called 'unverified parentage' it's a pilot scheme set up in 2011.
It's basically an application and if accepted she has to have all necessary tests be judged by championship judges at least on two separate occasions and it says it is a lengthy process which if accepted I'm pretty sure she would be ok to go ahead. If not then so be it! If you've not realised I'm doing a lot more as it is as most people. I'm not just breeding her I'm going to make sure before I do that things are fine. I don't see how you can criticise that.

We are going to apply for her to be KC registered herself as they do do that you just have to pay fees however at least I will know for sure if she is ok to breed or not as its a lengthy process and she will have all her tests and also she will get judged by two championship judges. So that's what we will do now. I can't be bothered arguing/justifying myself to people.

I presume you mean via the KC pilot scheme for registering dogs of unverified parentage ?

No I know that!! This is a pilot scheme they do like I've said on my other post I'm not explaining it again. And I wasn't even doing dog grooming when I bought her so how could I advise people.. Obviously you didn't know that. Like I said if I knew that puppies there were puppy farmed I wouldn't of gone there.

Good luck. :)

Yes Tommee, so hopefully she will be accepted

> And also it isn't just pet shops it's the 'general public' your talking about that have puppy farms also as was exposed on channel 5 cowboy traders!
>

I'm glad you have seen those TV shows and realise what awful conditions some puppies are raised in.

I don't know how to say this more gently, but your dog has almost certainly come from a similar background. These puppies bred to supply pet shops are meant to be just pets (and sometimes not even fit for purpose for that, as they can be hugely under-socialised and have other issues as well). they are not - and I am sad to say again, not - breeding material. They were born and bred as products to fill a niche, just as cheese or bread is made for the customers buying them.

If you want to find a good dog for breeding, rather than one which has been put together like a take-away sandwich by its creators, then you can look on this site for people who care enough about their puppies to make sure they never end up in a pet shop. Or a rescue centre, for that matter.

I'm sorry to put it in those terms, but there's no other way to get the message across.... you are here among people who do do things differently, and always putting the interests of the dogs first above all else. And I'm glad you have landed, as all of us here are knowledgeable and understand the difference between those who do it properly and well, and those who don't... not being funny but there is a huge gap between dogs that are bred for the love of the breed with a great investment put into each and every litter, and those who regard dogs as a money-spinning cash cow.

It is a process that existed 40 years ago, but it wasn't so expensive back then.

I'm just a bit surprised that you would buy a puppy farmed bitch & then spend several £100s on going down this route, when you could have bought a KC registered bitch from health tested parents from a responsible breeder, which would be a much easier & you would have a much better bitch to breed from & have the help of the breeder of the bitch when breeding from her

Thanks,
Don't get me wrong i understand where you're coming from and why this may annoy you or whatever but even if in the end we don't decide to breed her she will still be getting tests just so I can be reassured she's ok. This is a shock to me too to hear that she must of been puppy farmed as on the website they have a company statement that they only buy from licenced breeders not puppy farms. So it didn't cross my mind that she may of been puppy farmed.

They're honest.  Puppy farms ARE Licenced Breeders!

The general public are led to believe that Licensed means good... as in licensed premises, driving licence etc...

When in fact, what it really means is, they have so many dogs and breed so many puppies, the licence is only so that the council are aware of so many dogs being produced in that place, and can come in and check on the numbers and potentially step in if there are issues... the latter part is not always acted upon.

There's a wealth of difference between a puppy raised by folk on here... and those born in a big farm shed divided into kennels, where the mothers often never know their owners and are left to give birth alone. If you stick around, you'll see that difference.

people have to be licenced if they breed more than 5 litters a year, the licence is split up into amounts of breeding bitches with lowest amount allows up to 10 breeding bitches and the highest one allows 80+ breeding bitches and with no rules on staff per amount of dogs 1 person could be looking after 80+ dogs. People who are involved with them (the puppy farms them selves, pet shops and councils) only call unlicensed ones puppy farms as obviously the don't want to lose out on money as people wouldn't buy from them if the did which is where many people get confused and think a licenced breeder must be a good breeder. But the term puppy farm is mainly used for any breeder mass producing puppies for profit as a business.

There is about 85 licenced breeders in Carmarthenshire alone and they only insist on a vet being at the inspection for new applications, after that a vet isn't always present when there re-inspected later on so only the people who of course work for the council inspecting who wants the licence money, (conflict of interest much?). Wales has tones of puppy farms as at one point they gave a grant to people wanting ot start a business breeding dogs for profit, so farms swapped over to dog breeding as there is more profit in it for them (not sure if they still do the grant or not).

Breeders that are required to be licensed are those breeding commercially, which is normally at least anyone breeding five or more litters a year, but others breeding less that are doing so as part of a commercial activity can also be licensed.

Think about it, would you sell your puppies to a middle man to be sold on to people you have never met and will never know, is that an action of a caring breeder???

So how can such a person that we here refer to as Puppy producers (as they re not all large scale, you get the same kind of person breeding the occasional litter), be trusted to do anything right by the dogs they breed, the new owners, and the breed as a whole.

Unless it s a family with several active members involved in say a couple of breeds it is most unlikely any person/family truly deserving the name breeder (as opposed to puppy producer) would breed more than 4 litters of puppies a year.

It takes an awful lot of time (not to mention money) to correctly care for and socialise a litter of pups, and your normal life is put on hold.

I generally expect this to take at least 12 to 16 weeks from when pups are born, as not all pups will leave around 8 weeks, even if already all homed.  Some wills stay longer due to holidays, timings with export to fellow breed enthusiasts abroad etc.

Also of course the first few weeks win their new homes one is pretty much keeping tabs giving advise etc pretty much every few days.

This gradually peters out enough for one go on as normal, with just the odd call with any new thing re training and growing up.

I have certainly found this process exhausting and could not contemplate doing ti more than at most twice in a year. 

You still have all previous litters to keep in mind, you may at any time get THAT call that the erstwhile pup needs re-homing due to a change in circumstances, and sometimes this does not come at the most convenient time.

The bad news is that you cannot register the dog with the Kennel Club, even if you are prepared to spend a lot of money - that can only be done by the breeder. 
From the names of the dam and sire, they sounds as though they might be from a Welsh puppy farm - not the right place to buy from if you wish to breed. :(
Were you given any details of the health tests that the sire and dam had checked?  That's always the first thing that you need to know before thinking about breeding.  And most reputable breeders wouldn't mate a whole colour with a parti. :(

Cynin kennels is a large puppy farm in Carmarthenshire. Unfortunately.

Sorry, but this sounds really dodgy. Are you intending to breed purely to make money?
If you wanted a bitch to breed from I fail to see why you bought one from a pet shop with none of the correct paperwork or history on the ancestors. What makes your bitch so brilliant that you intend to breed from her? Does she come from champion lines? Has she won lots of shows?? This just screams £££, rather than anything for the good of the breed.

Hi,
No that is not the case at all!! If I wanted to do that don't you think I would just do it?! So ridiculous.
And at the time I didn't realise I was going to get a bitch.
I have bought her and seen how much of a beautiful dog she has grown into and that's why I was wanting to kc reg her to do it properly. I have got her ancestry and before I bought her she was fully vet checked (I have proof of this) and no she hasn't won lots of shows but even before breeding her we were going to get all the tests needed! I have looked into this so don't talk to me like a child i came on here for advice not a lecture! If there is a reason we can't breed her then we won't, simple as that!!
Like I said if it was for money do you not think I would of just bred her like most people?! Stop jumping to conclusions and grow up.

Hello MsTemeraire,
Thanks for the sensible reply unlike some, do you know anymore information on this? Eg. Phone number, Address.
Thanks, Chantelle.

I have got her ancestry and before I bought her she was fully vet checked (I have proof of this)

Chances are the pedigree is fake -you will find that is usually the case with puppies from breeders and re-sellers like these. Only KC registered dogs can have their ancestry verified. As for a vet check -a vet check done as a pup will only have been a basic check, it will not have involved eye testing by a specialist, hip scoring (which the dog has to be 12 months old to have carried out), DNA testing etc, so you unfortunately have no idea what you have got. Many genetic problems do not show up for a few years. If you're lucky, your bitch will stay healthy. Many from puppy farms do not. Your best option is to have her spayed, and if you really want to get into breeding, then please find a good breeder via a breed club (no good breeder sells their puppies to petshops, nor are they allowed to according to KC rules), buy a good pup, show it, and take it from there. A good breeder will become your mentor and friend and is always your first port of call for help with anything regarding your dog.

> do you know anymore information on this? Eg. Phone number, Address.

I googled to find that information - if you do the same, you may find an address and/or phone number.

Unfortunately I don't think you'll get much information from the breeder, as they are certainly a large scale business churning out puppies like breakfast cereal manufacturers make cornflakes, in order to supply the pet shops. Once that have been despatched to the pet shops they assume no further responsibility.

The registration you have mentioned is not an accepted one - unlike the KC which keeps strict and accurate ancestry data, and also details of heath testing, and records you can access going back decades.

Sadly, unlike the Kennel Club, I could register any of my dogs with the registry yours is with tomorrow and there would be no checks done to ascertain if any of my submitted information was correct, as long as I paid the fee.... so I could declare my dog was a Lilac Spotted Wire-haired Anatolian Karabash -  and I'd get a certificate to prove it in the return post, just on say-so.

I'm glad that you are enjoying your Cocker girl so much and that you have come on here for advice before you breed from her ....you've probably realised by now that she has come from a puppy farm, is unregistered and from parents who have not had any BVA health tests , this does not mean that she is not lovely , just that she absolutely should not be bred from. But why not use the interest in the breed that she has sparked to do things properly ? . Spend the next few years learning everything you can about Cockers, visit some Championship dog shows to meet breeders with quality dogs , join the breed club, visit those breeders whose dogs you like and put your name down for a well bred bitch from fully health tested parents......if she lives up to her promise then get her health tested and look for a stud dog that compliments her lines.

This way your pups will be an asset to the breed you love .....I know you did not realise it at the time but by buying from a pet store you were supporting the kind of vile misery that is puppy farming , don't make it any worse by passing on the results of such irresponsible breeding. Get your bitch spayed , love her to bits and if you are serious about breeding then please please help the breed by doing it right !

Chantelle, Trevor's advice is excellent; love your bitch for the pet she was sold as. As she came from a pet shop she will have been born in a large-scale commercial kennel aka puppy farm, from parents and grandparents who have had no genetic health tests (checkable on the KC website) and who, because you never met the breeder or saw your girl's mum might not even be her parents.

Please remember that the RSPCA have for decades been pressing as hard as they can the message to never buy a puppy if you don't see it with its mother, to prevent people unknowingly (as you have) lining the pockets of a puppy farmer.

Now that you've fallen in love with the breed and want to get involved with breeding yourself your best bet is to buy another puppy, this time from a reputable breeder whose animals have had all the correct genetic tests, and consider breeding a litter from her if she turns out to be suitable when she's fully grown. Your current girl will love the company and you're minimising the risk that the puppies you produce will have problems down the line.

Good luck. :-)

Chantelle.

Please please don't know get upset because like so many people you have bought a puppy on impulse without the required research to ensure it came from a proper background.

Love her care for her, ensure as far as you can that she stays in good health.You may be lucky and she will not suffer from some of the known diseases more prevalent in the breed that GOOD breeders spend a lot of time and money avoiding, but DNA testing (where available) and researching bloodlines so that dogs in the pedigrees having produced problems are avoided, or watered down, to minimise the chances of their genes coming together to cause problems.

Most health issues are recessive or polygenic in nature, dominant problems, such as those only requiring one affected parent to produce affected pups tend to be rare, unless late onset, as no one in their right mind would want to perpetuate an avoidable issue.

All other issues take RESEARCH to have the best chance of being avoided, and luckily with one or two we have DNA tests to show if a dog can produce a problem (carrier) or is clear, or sadly even affected but as yet symptom-less.

So from this you can see that people serious about a breed come together to exchange information and compare their breeding results (so they belong to breed clubs and show and/or work their dogs).

This is called being IN DOGS, or more specifically IN A BREED.

Someone like yourself who is serious about learning about a breed (usually after at first having a pet and finding out about the breed starts to hold a great fascination).  Many will have had a rescue, or like yourself bought a pup on a bit of a whim, and finding it was not carefully bred, will want to find out how to do better.

The best way to do this is to join the breed clubs, start attending breed events, getting to know breeders, why they bred, what their priorities are, see the kind of dogs they produce,a nd eventually narrow ti down to a few breeders whose ethos and the kind of dogs they produce appeal most and go on their waiting list for a new puppy.  the breeder will then help and advise them, and if all goes well and pup turns out well, then breeding may be attempted with the back up of those experienced breeders to mentor, and give the knowledge back-up we all at first lack (despite all our research).

This is the way I started, and many others do, and this is what I have endeavoured to do with those new owners who have become more deeply interested and involved in our breed, and helped them as fledgling breeders.

You keep saying that you have the ancestry,

How do you know that the parents stated on the 'pedigree' are even correct? It has been known that puppy farmers have stolen the identity on paper of other people's dogs only coming to light when no KC registration has followed and the KC have then contacted the stud dog or dam owners much to the owners horror.

The Kennel club is the only official pedigree, puppy farmers are renowned for spinning the truth in fact often down right lying about parentage even the breed of dog. You can write absolutely anything on that 'pedigree' you have..... I wouldn't trust it as far as I could spit.

In all honesty I would save your money and go and find yourself a reputable show breeder, buy yourself a pup from health tested parentage with its KC reg lineage all there for you to see at the time of purchase. Rear the pup, enter the show world and let this new pup make its mark and if it is good enough deemed by judges and other competitors then you can think about breeding.

This pup from a dubious start I would have as a much loved pet and if you are serious about getting to know your chosen breed you need to start from the bottom up and that starts with a good breeder who will mentor you and help you to settle into the show world.

I am shocked that the KC would consider registering a breed as common as the cocker spaniel under this scheme, I can see the point in rare breeds that different genes need adding to the gene pool but not in common breeds produced in the 1000's each year.

Also where the dog was bought from should also prohibit any chance of it being registered with the KC.

I wonder how many generations of unregistered dogs are behind this dog.

Would any knowledgeable puppy buyer buy a pup with an unknown background?

As already suggested get her spayed when mature and buy a pup which has been well bred from health tested parents, you will then have the help and support from the breeder and a mentor if you decide to breed for yourself, if your lucky they will introduce you to others in the breed when you go to shows so you get to learn from lots of different folk.

I am shocked that the KC would consider registering a breed as common as the cocker spaniel under this scheme,
I don't think you've any cause to worry. :)

If you wanted to 'do it properly' you would have done some research before buying your pup. One thinks if you had done some research you would not have sourced a pup from where you did. In your own words you didnt even know whether you would get a male or female which i find ludicrous!!
I wont duplicate what others have said but there are some extremely valid points made which i hope (for your dog and the breeds sake) you take.

Well when I Googled the puppy farm, it didn't come up with an awful lot BUT it did come up with some WORKING Cockers. So if this bitch is working lines, I cannot see any KC championship judges ever passing her as typical of the breed for registration.

Like I said before, breeders of KC registered puppies are not ALLOWED to supply petshops with puppies, that is KC rules, so  that instantly means that a petshop puppy cannot have come from a good KC breeder. This is WHY the Mickey Mouse registry was set up by this petshop.

The KC litter registration application form: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/375/form1.pdf

Point 13 of the Code of Ethics printed on the back of the form says:
Breeders/Owners Will not sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers, retail pet  dealers or directly or indirectly allow dogs to be given as a prize or donation in a competition of any kind. Will not sell by sale or auction Kennel Club registration certificates as stand alone items (not accompanying a dog).

Interestingly enough Westcoast there are already numerous working sheepdogs (Not registered ones) that have gone through this process and are now fully KC registered in a breed that already has KC and ISDS breed registers. So I can not see it being impossible in a breed such as cockers. Rightly or wrongly it my well happen.

Then the Kennel Club has gone mad like the rest of the country trying to placate the minorities rather than having the strength to do the right thing!

I'm glad that I was involved with my breed for the last 30 years and not these days.  :(

Then the Kennel Club has gone mad like the rest of the country trying to placate the minorities rather than having the strength to do the right thing!

It makes no sense, does it. On the face of it, great idea. Get some unregistered dogs evaluated as being decent examples of their breed, register them and hence get some new blood in. But with unverified parentage, how does anyone know they are not from lines already in abundance? They could end up being mated to littermates or parents even!

> On the face of it, great idea. Get some unregistered dogs evaluated as being decent examples of their breed, register them and hence get some new blood in

The problem i see is though that say a dog has been aquired somehow and papers withheld, its now on its 2nd / 3rd home, looks every inch the breed in question. Passes its Ch Sh judge assessment. How do we then know its not brother/sister to a chosen mate? Does a DNA test take place to prevent this ?

Exactly Claire, that's just what I said above. So it makes no sense.

Sorry Marianne i didnt read your post fully :(

This thread will go on forever i feel.

Question to the OP though:- Why? When you bought her as a pet, do you now want to breed? What has changed your mind?

It would serve you well to read some of the traumatic stories that the responsible breeders on this site have been through. i myself thought i would lose my bitch to a second bout of eclampsia on her last litter and i had taken rapid action on seeing the signs. Its a chance we take when we mate our bitches and im sure in truth we are all thinking "it wont happen to us" but the harsh reality is it can and does.

> Or if you had to kc reg your dog yourself (like I may have to) it's down as 'unverified parentage' on kennel club let me know how it went and if you don't mind how much you spent on the process?

I have heard of someone who has been through this process.  It is very long winded and I believe took over a year in all.  The costs (not including travel) came to a four figure sum.

It's great that you will get health tests done, but one generation of health tests doesn't give you a good enough picture to consider breeding IMO.  Also, there are a lot of other things in a dog history and that of it's parents to consider, which you won't have access to as your girl will be from a puppy farmer.  I'm sure you love her and she is a fantastic pet, but it wouldn't be right to breed from her.