Off my topic of ovary-sparing spay if I am unable to get this done
what are the chances of your bitch getting pyro? What age is it more common in &
is it a high chance for a dog to get pyro?

Just don't want to chance my girls health or have her die from something I could of prevented.

[/url=http://www.dog-health-problems-online.com/pyometra.html]This article might help.[/url] Remember that if the ovaries are left then the bitch will still come into season and be attractive to males, but there will be no uterine bleeding. The possibility of stump pyo (not 'pyro' ;-) ) is greater than with a full ovario-hysterectomy.

I have only ever left 2 bitches unspayed past 8. Both got pyometra. I will always spay at 8 now for an ex breeding bitch, earlier for one that has never had pups and never is going to.

I have never spayed any of my bitches in 30 years and the only pyometra that I've had was a 7 month old bitch whose 'normal' season ended with a mucky discharge that turned into pus in 24 hours and had an emergency spay.

My parents didn't spay their bitches. One got pyo at around 16 - she did survive the op, another got pyo at around 10 - she didn't survive.
I always spay my bitches, but not until they are at least around 2. Later if I decide they are worthy of being bred from

My rescue CS had been used for breeding before I got her and she had Pyro at 3 yrs old, this is why they got rid of her.

So confusing on what to do- if not done right a higher chance of stump pyo?
If my vet won't do it due to chance of that then I'd prob be better off to do a
full spay at 5-6 yrs? Oooh my that's a lot of heats lol

I personally wouldn't wait till 5/6 years old. As long as the bitch is fully mature I think it is fine to spay. I have done a lot of my rescues over the years after their first season so they can go to their new home spayed and none of them have suffered any ill effects. Wait till after her second season if you want, but I see no value in waiting any longer.

Interestingly, my 8.5 year old girl has just had a mammary lump spotted, and I thought the vet would want to spay her, but he said as it's only 1 lump he is happy to leave her intact for now.

I have never spayed mine and only one of mine had a pyo that was treated with strong antibiotics and she lived for another 2 years with no problems until the age of 12. Her daughter lived until the age of 15 without being spayed and I have her great grand-daughter still with me who will be 13 next month.

Our Pom's live until 16 on average and never spayed them either and never had a pyo in that breed.

All my girls at aroung the age of 12 did get mammary lumps but I have to admit not doing anything and Lydia did live until 15.  Lana's had hers for nearly 2 years now and seems fine.

Zan I personally wouldn't wait till 5/6 years old. As long as the bitch is fully mature I think it is fine to spay. I have done a lot of my rescues over the years after their first season so they can go to their new home spayed and none of them have suffered any ill effects. Wait till after her second season if you want, but I see no value in waiting any longer.

They are finding more & more that animals need their parts to have a healthy long life- just like us humans if given a hysterectomy way to
young you will needs meds all your life. The only problem is animals cannot talk but the signs are there. Rescues push so much for early alter
when really its irresponsible people is reason due to over pet population. I have done research & do not believe altering is our only way to go.
Reason why I am looking at leaving intact or a sparing spay or if must will spay at 5-6 yrs- I just wanted to no what the high risk of pyo is because
if its not a huge factor then I will worry less. She's our best friend & since we are her voice I don't want to do anything to her that I myself wouldn't want done to us
so to speak. Really don't want to do a routine spay because society feels this is the best for our animals. My male dog is still intact at 13 1/2 yrs and I have no problem
dealing with when she comes into heat- a lil noisy & more work but to me well worth it in the end. I also feed raw because like I said I want the best.

To me the risks far out way the benefits when an animal is altered- just some links I have read- To me The Value (my furkids) is Worth Waiting!
She has already had 3 heats & only 1 1/2 yrs not even fully mature yet according to Great Dane breed- think that's like 3yrs.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/your-dog-needs-to-be-spayed-or-neutered-right/

I hear what you are saying and you are, of course, right to do your research. For me, the risk of pyometra is too big a risk to leave a fully mature bitch intact. Any evidence of how big a risk it is that you will get on here will be purely anectdotal. Some people will have been lucky and had intact bitches living long lives and not getting pyo, and some people will have been unlucky and had a beloved bitch die due to pyo, either because she was too old/weak to survive an emergency spay, or because it was a closed pyo and the first symptom was a dead bitch. I don't routinely castrate my male dogs because there is nothing like pyometra that can affect them and I think it is unnecessary, but I do routinely spay all my bitches when mature. Just my choice.

Sorry to change the topic slightly, but in my ignorance is it only canine 'bitches' that suffer so from pyro or do other animal females suffer the same problem?

I fully understand all the 'for' and 'against' views here, but you just have to go with personal experience. Some dogs are lucky and some or not, it is just a chance that you have to decide to take or not.
Having seen my bitch with Pyro ( emergency spay )  and also having lost a dog aged 7 ( entire) with cancer of the testicles. The cancer had spread aggressively very quickly and he was gone. Now I have all my dogs spayed/neutered without exception.
But this is my choice because of my experience in spite of all that is written about it is not good for the dogs health, for me Pyro, Cancer and death is not good for my dog either.
Personal choice....

Lacy - yes other species can get pyometra. It's not very common in cats at all - I've only done a couple of cat pyos in 10 years - but I don't know if this is because they're less susceptible or because there are virtually no unspayed, non breeding queens in this country (I suppose the Norwegians might know).

Cattle and sheep generally breed every year, again I don't know what would happen if they didn't. They often get uterine infections if they don't pass the placenta within a few hours of giving birth, as do mares (who get sick even more quickly). Even though there are lots of intact, non breeding mares that live to a ripe old age, I have only ever seen one pyo in a horse. This was a bit odd - mare was fine in herself - I think the pyo was so chronic (months, poss years) that the uterus had become thickened and walled off the infection. It stank to high heaven and I referred her as didn't think I could get her permanently cleared with uterine washout and antibiotics.

To the OP: I was taught that around 25% of unspayed bitches will eventually get a pyo. Seems to be more risk if they have had false pregnancies. Mostly middle aged/elderly bitches, though I have seen it in youngsters.  If they have a pyo which is treated medically - which I will do in a dog that's fairly well in herself if the owners wish - alizin plus antibitoics - I recommend either spay 2-3 months later or breed at next heat if owners want pups, as they are practically guaranteed to suffer a repeat episode after the next heat if left intact and not in pup.

Ovary sparing spay...hmm. I have never done this. I can see the argument for it, but I would worry about
- stump pyo - with the best will in the world I don't see how you could know if you've got every scrap of uterine tissue, and a stump pyo could be a tricky thing to diagnose and treat and ensure no recurrance
- still going to have increased risk of mammary masses. OK, a lot of these are benign; but as so many mammary masses contain a mixture of tissue, I do not rely on needle biopsies - still need to anaesthetise the dog and chop the lump (or entire mammary chain) off. I do not love doing this (or pyo spay) in older bitches with health problems. The last pyo we saw was in a middle aged, systemically ill CKCS with a grade 4 heart murmur. She did fine but we wren't exactly climbing over each other to volunteer for that anaesthetic.

There is no way that we can ensure that a bitch will live to a ripe old age with intact cruciates and no incontinence/obesity/pyometra/mammary masses/other types of cancer. Everyone wants the best for their pet, but you pays your money and takes your chance, basically. I will say that, in my first two years in practice in an area where a lot of people didn't spay, I did more pyos, mammary lump removals, Caesars and mismating injections than in the 8 years since put together. In the 8 years since, I have seen a lot more fat animals with busted cruciates. I do not see many slim animals with busted cruciates.  Saw osteosarcoma both places in about the same numbers I think - much more uncommon anyway so my observations of this would not be statistically significant- the first two osteosarcs I saw were in intact male dogs though.

A q for Irish vet....following on from your comment about incidence of osteosarcoma in intact males......do you then advocate routine neutering males or not? I ask as I have my first ,male pup in over forty years of keeping dogs and am currently swayed contra neutering(unless there are behavioral issues) by the latest research that says leave well alone unless there are problems. Id appreciate  a yay or nay on this,please.

I've no idea about other animals suffering pyo. However I did have two pet ewes who lived with me for eleven years without lambing and they were fine. One died at eleven of something else and the other went to live with another small flock and surprised everyone including herself, when she had a lamb at the age of thirteen.

Another question for Irishvet or anyone. Is it unusual for a pregnant bitch to suffer from a Pyo? I was due to have a puppy from the bitch, but she sadly developed a pyo and lost the pups and had to be speyed.

Jodi - terrible bad luck - I have never heard of a pregnant bitch getting a pyo (although admittedly my experience of reproductive problems is, though perhaps a little better than the average vet, not extensive)

Bellamia - I'm probably the most relaxed in my practice about advising castrating dogs. I leave things completely up to the owners. I advise people not to castrate a large breed male before 1yo (I like full or near-full musculoskeletal development first). The only situations where I very strongly advise castration is
- in a dog that's continually running off after bitches and risks getting run over
-  dominant brats that are pushy with people and fight other males at any opportunity

I make sure that owners understand the potential for testicular cancer (not common but I have seen a small handful of malignant testicular tumours in my career), perineal hernia (again not common but a right pain in the arse to fix, so to speak) and
enlarged prostate (common, dealable-with especially with Ypozane which is fab) then let it slide.
My own dog is a 15yo uncastrated terrier who would fight his own shadow, but never leaves mum and dad's farm except to toddle down to the neighbours a few hundred yards away on a quiet road. I am fully prepared to have to anaesthetise and castrate him if he gets any of the above problems, though a perineal hernia would be not-fun to fix in an old dog. He has always been slim and it's nice not to have to bother about his weight (I've seen fat entire dogs, but not often). FWIW.

Oh Bellamia - btw, I think it was coincidence that the first two osteosarcomas I saw were in intact males. I've seen them in females and castrated males too. The osteosarc thing wouldn't really influence me when deciding whether to neuter a dog or not. What size is your dog? I've never seen osteosarc in any dog smaller than a collie (though it can happen). So far - the ones I can remember include a few Rotts, a Wolfhound, a GSD and a foxhound (my first 2 cases), an Irish water spaniel, a couple of labs and a couple of cats (different situation/prognosis etc really). It's devastating when it happens, but so is an RTA when straying after a bitch. I've seen more of these than osteosarcs and I think the difference (if any) neutering makes is probably almost negligible compared to the risk of testicular cancer and perineal hernia which in itself is still reasonably small.

Thanks for your helpful reply Irish vet....he is a st poodle ,at present just 7 m and 20 kilos.(very lean ,62cm tall)...I don't want to neuter him at all,he's low prey drive,very social ,gentle temperament  and will never be allowed to roam...even off lead it will only  be in safe areas. I give a quick, weekly,feel up of his Crown Jewels when he is groomed  and would definitely neuter if he had any testicular lumps.Thanks again for your input,much appredicated.

Lacy - yes other species can get pyometra. It's not very common in cats at all - I've only done a couple of cat pyos in 10 years - but I don't know if this is because they're less susceptible or because there are virtually no unspayed, non breeding queens in this country (I suppose the Norwegians might know).

For what it is worth, I have been breeding pedigree cats for 24 years, and it is quite rare that I have a female spayed when I have finished breeding with her -usually I only do it if I am certain I do NOT want to breed from her ever, or if I want to show her as a neuter or as a household pet (HPs at shows must be neutered if over 6 months) or if I want a companion for a stud cat. Or of course if there was a problem during a birth and she is spayed at the same time as a c-section. In these 24 years I have had just one case of pyometra. I typically have around 35 cats at any one time so those include a fair few entire queens of all ages. But I have never had an entire queen that's stayed entire and NEVER been bred from. The one pyo had had one litter then never got pregnant again despite matings, and eventually developed pyometra.

Thank you :-)

Think maybe I will have her spayed between 3-5 yrs of age cause my vet doesn't do the other.
Being a Dane cross reason why I am thinking later. So far she's 28" at the shoulder & 88 pounds,
very slim & athletic. She walks about 5-8 km a day and on cooler days we throw the ball with a fetch it
(goes great distance) that's about 10-20 times (there & back so double) depending on her. She lets us no
when she is done.