Hi, Im new to the forum so apologies if this post should be under breeding...I'm thinking of breeding from my dog next year and I was talking to my vet today about this. He thinks my girl is lovely and has no issues. However, as one of the principle reasons would be to keep one, he said that in his opinion, the puppy the owner keeps often does not turn out as sound from an all round socialisation view point as the rest of the litter. He could think of a number of examples where he regularly sees most of the litter following sales when the retained puppy is 'needy' and not particularly friendly (and its siblings are fine). He thinks this may be because they don't need to bond as closely with their owner or because they dont need to be as independent from 8 weeks. He didn't think it was a really strong reason not to breed, but another element to put in the mix before deciding. Have other owners found this? particularly if they only have the mum and pup. Is it really common?  many thanks for your views

Can't think why you would breed if it is not to keep one and of course to help improve the breed - it those are not your reasons then you should be buying a pup in as it will cost far less money and you will not be putting your bitch through all the risks of whelping.

Someone told me once that if you were keeping a puppy from a litter then you should find a very trustworthy friend to have that puppy for a while from the normal selling age. This would mean that the puppy would go through the normal parting from its mum and home so that it would mature in the same way as other pups.

I absolutely want to keep one as I agree that it would be easier to buy one. I wont breed if Im not going to keep one, but was interested in whether people's experiences of the puppy they have kept from a personality / dynamics angle were better than experiences of introducing an unrelated puppy.

Thanks Mandy. Do you know how long the puppy was expected to be separated?

Yes I have most DEFINITELY found this in pretty much every litter I have had. To the extent that I am now making arrangements for the pup I keep each time to go to my daughter's house for at least a while. Not leaving the dam and not moving away from the place where the pup was born means it never takes that huge step that all its littermates will do and it is a drawback. You have to work much harder. I have twice had dogs returned to me as young adults, and I could definitely tell a difference between the ones that had left home and the ones that stayed. I don't think it's only down to what I have or haven't done to socialise as when I have bought a pup off another breeder, it has always been easier to socialise than homebred ones.

Oh dear! There was I thinking that not having to introduce a stranger to the family would be an advantage! I have always been told that the mother disciplines the pup and it was so much easier to establish the household patterns etc. But as with everything in life, there is an almost equal disadvantage balancing it out!

I don't have a fraction of the experience of breeders on this site, but the one time I did breed, I found the puppy I kept had a better temperament than the ones that went, he was more outgoing and confident and generally a very genial character .He was an utter joy to raise and live with, and was much closer to me than his dam, in fact when she died, he seemed to be completely unaffected.
As to the dam disciplining her puppy, that just didn't happen in my case, she was incredibly tolerant of him, as was my other dog ( male of a different breed ) he could do what ever he pleased with them and it was down to me to direct what was and was not appropriate .

Mine now all go to live in a busy, bustling place with a friend for a month or so....
I'm enjoying the added confidence it brings to them.

Thanks Celli . Great to know that it isn't always the case. And as Tooolz and some of the others have said, there are steps you can take to reduce any potential problems. Thanks for your posts.

> the puppy the owner keeps often does not turn out as sound from an all round socialisation view point as the rest of the litter

Well, some of the pups we've bred and kept have turned out to be very confident and easily trained. And some have been less outgoing and needed more work. I honestly believe that they have turned out more or less the way they were always going to be. I really couldn't generalise. Often you can see how naturally confident they are right from their early days. I always target any that look a bit more timid and work on them while they are still with us, whether they're destined to leave or stay.

Not sure if that helps any, just my observations over time.

Having now owned 9 dogs, 8 home-bred of 6 generations I would say that is absolute rubbish.  Mine have all been very social and their inter-dog skills far better than the original bitch who started off as an only dog, and had to be socialised only with canines outside the home.  I'm not saying she wasn't good, but she wasn't as bold on first meeting as subsequent home bred pups have been.

With later litters I have found the pups who had various relatives to interact with over and above Mum were the boldest.

It can only occur if the puppy is not properly socialised, and would happen just the same if someone bought an 8 week old puppy, took it home and only had it socialising with an existing dog, and not being trained and socialised properly with other dogs and generally.

The fact the Vet has been able to follow most of a litter suggests that these have been bred by novices and sold locally through the grapevine.  I doubt they travelled far for the stud either.  I have very rarely had any of my pups go to anything like local homes, probably the nearest 20 miles away.

More importantly you should be choosing a stud with impeccable temperament, (at least around 30% of mental/character traits are inherited) proven to be a good example of the breed (as yours of course should be) by being worked or shown, and both should have good results in the appropriate health tests.  These may be clinical tests like Hip scoring, elbow scoring, heart testing eye testing etc, or DNA testing for specific diseases where a gene test has been developed.

My retained puppies have all been more relaxed than the bought-in ones.

Maybe the breed makes a difference, those more Velcro breeds perhaps get over reliant

It could be that because their systems didn't undergo the same stress of the trauma and upheaval of the change of home and environment they've been more accepting and less fearful of new circumstances. They've been perfectly friendly but not as outwardly 'grovelly' as some which have been bought in. My latest bought-in dal is still somewhat 'stand-offish' and more likely to make her own decisions rather than trust us to make them for her.

Having now owned 9 dogs, 8 home-bred of 6 generations I would say that is absolute rubbish.

It certainly is not, it is perfectly true and a conclusion I had come to myself long ago. Already 3 years ago we were talking about sending the kept pup away for a month or so. It's perfectly logical that a pup that misses out on the big step its littermates will take at around 8 weeks will fall behind.

I have never had a problem and would never  send a pup off to anyone else as I like to have total control over how that pup is treated from the start. I agree with Barbara it is compete tosh !!
Aileen

I'd say your vet has seen some poorly reared and poorly socialised litters :-( If you are a good breeder (irrespective of experienced or a first timer) then you go out of your way to ensure that your pups are well socialised with tons of good experiences under their belt before they leave you, that includes the pup you keep. Why on earth would a pup you keep not then also be well socialised? It is of course then your duty to continue that puppy's socialisation experiences, just the same as if you bought a pup in at 8 weeks, or whatever, age. If you are lazy with the socialisation once the rest of the litter have been homed then you may well experience difficulties.

Seems to be an even split between people with outgoing self reliant breeds saying rubbish, and clingy more introvert ones saying they have seen a difference.

Maybe the kind of household and location is more to the point. 

> It's perfectly logical that a pup that misses out on the big step its littermates will take at around 8 weeks will fall behind.

What big stwp.

The big step is surely loosing it's littermates, which they all do, regardless of whether they leave or stay. 

My Mums by that stage choose not to have too mcuh to do with the pups, absolvign all responsibility to me, she behaves no differently to the rest of the dogs re the pups.

I have genrally found that the adults prefer not to have to do much with pup until it is over 12 weeks, so not a lot of difference to a pup leaving to go to another multidog home.

Only differenc eis change of primary carer, but as mine have so many humans coming and going in their lives regularly and like everyone pretty much equally (prefering visitors over boring me).

It is my job once pup is on it's own to socialise, take it out etc just as the new owners should be doing.

I have 4 dogs that were bred here and I can't see a difference between bought in and home reared temperaments. If there is qa difference then i think it is down to the time spent socialising and training.

>He thinks my girl is lovely and has no issues.

Before you start wondering about whether or not to keep a puppy, has your bitch been tested for the hereditary conditions that affect the various breeds (and crossbreeds) or just had a general vet-check?

It's also very unusual for a vet, unless a breeder him/herself, to have any contact with litter siblings because as a rule they're homed over a very large area, sometimes hundreds of miles away, so never see the same vet.

To be honest, if a kept puppy hasn't bonded closely with the breeder then perhaps the breeder hasn't spent as much one-to-one time with the pup as she should, and it's nothing to do with the fact that pup hasn't had the mental and physical set-back of rehoming?

Why on earth would a pup you keep not then also be well socialised?

Because it has never left the place where it was born and it has never left its dam. The difference is HUGE and very, very obvious. It's similar to a 20 year old boy living at home with his mum, or living on his own. Once he's taken the step of leaving home, he will grow up a lot more.

My Mums by that stage choose not to have too mcuh to do with the pups, absolvign all responsibility to me, she behaves no differently to the rest of the dogs re the pups.

I don't find that at all. Quite the opposite. At say 7-8 weeks old the bitch will show little interest in her pups. By  approximately 12 weeks however THAT is when she starts to really play with the pup that is left, and spend a lot of time with it. It's happened in every litter I have had. It's like she waits until they are older, or not so many.

Personally I have never heard of sending a pup away for a period of time.  Certainly I don't and nor do any other breeders I know.  The only time it may happen is when someone returns a puppy and I/they then decide to keep it.

I have 6 bitches currently living in my home all bar the youngest were bred by me and are brilliant.  All get along well with no issues.  I always take the pup walking on it's own initially so we can spend more time being fussed over by people when out walking etc and attend puppy classes and Ringcraft to get them used to going to other places and meeting other dogs etc.

Struggling to understand why they do it really.  Each to their own I suppose and to a degree it may depend on the breed.

> My Mums by that stage choose not to have too mcuh to do with the pups, absolvign all responsibility to me, she behaves no differently to the rest of the dogs re the pups.

I've found exactly the same as this with my large breed bitches.

But the couple of toy litters we've had are different in that the bitch has fed and taken an interest in them for much longer. After a while, as the pups we've kept have grown, they have integrated completely with the other dogs, and the dam treats them the same as all the rest.

I too am struggling to see a valid reason for doing this. The pups I keep are socialized from day one as a whole litter and then individually once the rest of the pups have gone. I take them out alone, play with them alone, train them alone. (They also go out with company at times) They learn to be left alone (While too young to walk far they stay home alone) they go to ringcraft alone and they get out into the big wide world alone to meet new things. The have time to play with Mum and any other dogs we have here and they learn to stand on their own four feet. Maybe it is something breed related ? My Mums sometimes shun the pups at 6/7 weeks but very rarely. Most often they just slot into the hierarchy and become valued members of the gang. Surely it is all about how you deal with the situation. Possibly if I had a larger number of dogs it would not be possible to spend so much time with a new pup but I have a limited number and make it my job to ensure a well rounded confident pup with or without the rest of the gang for backup. It takes time and effort but it is something I feel is vitally important.
Aileen

I'm thinking of breeding from my dog next year and I was talking to my vet today about this. He thinks my girl is lovely and has no issues. However, as one of the principle reasons would be to keep one, he said that in his opinion, the puppy the owner keeps often does not turn out as sound from an all round socialisation view point as the rest of the litter. He could think of a number of examples where he regularly sees most of the litter following sales when the retained puppy is 'needy' and not particularly friendly (and its siblings are fine).

First of all, what health tests are required for your breed?   Have they all been done?    Most of the tests cannot be done by your GP vet,  they must be done by a suitably qualified vet, eg eye tests.    Vets don't do DNA testing - those have to be sent away.    Hip and Elbow scoring have to be sent away too.    

If the required tests have been done on your bitch, are the results good enough?    Is she a good example of the breed?   Has she been shown or independantly assessed?  

Frankly, a vet telling me my bitch has no issues, without having done the battery of tests that are required in most breeds, seems to me irresponsible and shows his ignorance of matters related to breeding - not unusual in a GP vet, sadly.

Also if your vet has been able to see whole litters, then he's probably only seeing backyard-bred litters.    Most well bred pedigrees are bought by people living many hours away, as the owners have sourced a well bred, health tested pup and distance is not a consideration.

Regarding keeping a pup, I think it very much depends on the type of socialisation and the effort put in by the breeder that makes a difference.   This again comes down to the type of breeder, someone who has put huge amounts of time and money into health testing and showing their dogs before breeding, is going to put more of an effort into ensuring that the parents have the right temperaments and the pups get the right kind of socialisation for their individual needs.

Please don't underestimate how much effort this takes, having a litter is really a full time job from the time the pups are born until they leave, and then the same effort has to be put into the pup that is left.

Most breeders will socialise, walk, and train the kept pup separately to the rest of the dogs in order to ensure the pup is confident with and without their 'pack'

Maybe it is something breed related ?

It may well be -so I think it is a bit unfair for some people to dismiss it all as "rubbish" when we are not just talking about the OP's vet's opinion here, but personal experiences over many years. :) And I for one most certainly know other breeders here who have noticed the same. I was even told about it in Holland when I imported a dog.

I think there must be an element of breed related differences and differences in temperament, in addition to the difference made by differences in socialisation.

In my own experience, all of my pups have been very outgoing, regardless of whether they have stayed here or gone to other owners.   Perhaps that's down to temperament, or breed, or both?    Or perhaps it's down to the massive effort we put in to socialising them?   I'm just glad they're bomb-proof :-)

One thing that hasn't come up in relation to this, is whether or not the OP owns a breed which is being bred in such huge numbers that there is little or no need for another litter.

Has the OP considered the possibility of having to keep part or all of the litter if they can't sell the pups owing to saturation of the 'market' ?

> By approximately 12 weeks however THAT is when she starts to really play with the pup that is left,

That is what I said, the adults including Mum show little interest in the pups from weaning to around 12 weeks, though adolescents are more than happy to play with them.

So at the usual homing age (7 - 12 weeks) pups are not relying on Mum.

So at the usual homing age (7 - 12 weeks) pups are not relying on Mum.

No but my point was that AFTER this they WILL start to rely on her again, which the littermates that have been sold can't do, hence the problem. You can't possibly dismiss personal experience Brainless, I'm not making it up. :) Some of my bitches (notably one of the Papillons) will treat their daughters as puppies for their entire lives -well I assume the entire lives anyway, oldest daughter is 3, and she's still treated the way she was when a pup. This bitch doesn't treat any other pups that way, i.e. ones brought in from elsewhere.

> AFTER this they WILL start to rely on her again

no more so that a pup going to a home with an existing dog/s.

no more so that a pup going to a home with an existing dog/s.

No, it is 100 % different to when they are mixing with dogs that are not their mother. No comparison at all.

I haven't found that to be the case; they seem to prefer to spend time away from their mum by then and mix with the others more because mum can be too strict! They're more likely to develop a strong bond with another of the group than with mum.

It seems obvious that people have had differing experiences of this. I wonder how much is ruled by breed/temp of parents/environment/or just as some have suggested growing up. It would be interesting to know. I do not doubt what Goldmali is saying for a moment, she has plenty of experience with her breeds. My breed is totally different and much more laid back about life. They seem to happily settle within the folds of the family with no obvious difference to a pup which is sold so it would never occur to me to "lend" a pup out  to start with. Just out of interest as you have 2 such different breed Marianne do you feel the need to do this with your smaller breed or your larger more work oriented breed? Barbara obviously like me finds no problems with her breed, a well know more primitive breed. I wonder Marianne do you think it has anything to do with numbers kept? I have a limit of 3/4 dogs as my circumstances mean I do not wish to cope with more so they get a lot of 1-1 time. I know your dogs have excellent time with you and I would not insult you by suggesting you do not spend time with them but do you think it makes any difference at all ? Others have been firm in their views too and it would be interesting to have opinions and facts about temp/type/numbers etc.. to compare. Maybe I will start a new thread so as not to over power this one. I will post and copy to a new one. Lets continue there.
Aileen

Just out of interest as you have 2 such different breed Marianne do you feel the need to do this with your smaller breed or your larger more work oriented breed? Barbara obviously like me finds no problems with her breed, a well know more primitive breed. I wonder Marianne do you think it has anything to do with numbers kept? I have a limit of 3/4 dogs as my circumstances mean I do not wish to cope with more so they get a lot of 1-1 time. I know your dogs have excellent time with you and I would not insult you by suggesting you do not spend time with them but do you think it makes any difference at all ?

Definitely more with the larger breed, but have seen it in the toys as well eg. the bitch I mentioned who treats her daughters as pups for ever more.

It's a good point about numbers but again I don't think so (i.e. I don't think it is the case here -can't speak for anyone else of course) as I saw the same from my very first litter compared with siblings, when I had much smaller numbers. (I had 5 dogs when my first litter was born.) This is something I have been talking about for years already, as we've seen it in every litter. Almost a bit of a pet subject of mine as it is something I have discussed with friends so many times. It's something I brought up with my own vet at one point as well (well it came up in conversation) and it was agreed with -my vet have quite a few breeders/exhibitors as clients.

Hi, Just to clarify to Dill - although whether I should breed from My bitch is possibly off topic - I have had relevant health checks done. My bitch is under average in her scores for the breed. I am not rushing headlong into anything without significantly researching the pros and cons. I agree Litters are often bought from across the country - mine came from 150 miles away.
But I also respect the advice of my vet - he wasn't suggesting this was an endemic pattern - merely something that he had observed from time to time over the years .I am interested in others observations -and Im really pleased that you and others have found the time to reply with your views / personal experiences of whether this happens and when it does, whether certain other parameters are also present. I get a sense that this is unlikely to happen where breeders have a 'pack' of pets rather than where a single dam has a single additional puppy - which would be the case for me.
Thanks for all your posts - seems to have created a forum for some interesting debates that I am enjoying reading.

I have a breed that can have problems when with the mother. Have a pup now that was the most confident when everyone was coming to see the pups, was fantastic for a while and now all of a sudden isn't as outgoing and it's a breed that are known for this at times.  I do feel that it can be breed specific.  Just hoping that she grows out of her fear period :(

As I now have a split line from two half sisters,  I have found that the two youngest (cousins) are more bonded with each other than with either of their dams.

The Mum of the older has a decided preference for her niece who is the youngest by 15 months.

The very maternal older sister seemed to confine her very maternal traits to infant pups (regardless of whose they were).  She has shown no obvious  attachment to her daughter.

I personally believe it is down to socialisation. If the pup is only exposed to its family of the same breed and isn't taken out of its own environment and land (some people have so many dogs that potentially they cannot walk them all off their own land) then yes, the pup may not be as bold. Mine have always been taken to the local park (with the adults) and they meet all the other breeds of dogs and their owners and learn to play and socialise and therefore can cope with all that goes on in a busy life. If a Vet sees the dogs that aren't taken daily to meet and greet then they could come to the conclusion that the pups are more needy.

>> It's perfectly logical that a pup that misses out on the big step its littermates will take at around 8 weeks will fall behind.
> What big step.
>
> The big step is surely loosing it's littermates, which they all do, regardless of whether they leave or stay. 

I have been thinking about this and the big step is not just losing littermates, it is that the pups whole world changes. Nothing is the same, the house, the people, the dogs. Everything. The only thing that might stay the same for a while is the food. Everything else will have changed. so yes changing homes is a very big step for a pup to take.

>so yes changing homes is a very big step for a pup to take.

Yes it is; similar to a young child going to boarding school for the first time, or even an adult's first week in a new job. It's very stressful both mentally and physically, disruptive to the digestive system (stress causes the squits in humans as well!) and needs to be handled extremely carefully if the pup's growth isn't to suffer a setback.

He could think of a number of examples where he regularly sees most of the litter following sales when the retained puppy is 'needy' and not particularly friendly (and its siblings are fine). He thinks this may be because they don't need to bond as closely with their owner or because they dont need to be as independent from 8 weeks.

TBH, I don't believe that (from the vets point of view here) as what vet ever sees the rest of the litter, it is very rare for the whole litter or even up to two to stay in the same area, also most of us are likely not to keep the most submissive of the litter for ourselves and those could well have been the pup/s this vet saw afterwards.

I think it is swings and roundabout, we all know when we have a litter that there are different characters and personalities, and by 8 weeks if all the litter is still there they are about as wild as they are going to get.

The pups need the dam to learn dog etiquette, but they also need time with their breeder to me this makes the difference. I have always throughout the day from 5 weeks of age taken time to take each pup away from it's siblings and spend time with me and my family, for approx 20 mins twice a day, exploring different parts of the garden and house that the litter do not see as they are contained in different areas.

I don't do this just for the pups but for me to get to know them properly, it helps with placings and to really judge character along with watching how they are in the pecking order of the litter, it teaches them from the off that humans do not play like their siblings which for me is very important as pups left to just play with each other get too full on and can give new owners a hard time.

For me it is how a pup is reared, but also the personality of that pup, bossy pups will be that way with the breeder or in a new home (plenty of people come for advice on the board thinking they have an aggressive pup don't they?) The pup doesn't change all that much because it has had a change of circumstances.

A breeder has to have alone time and plenty of one on one with a pup no matter if home reared or bought in. Any pup just left with the pack will not be as responsive to their human.

I have to agree.

I think in general - those that are kept by the breeder and don't have issues are often those that dont live in house and are kennel or large breeder based (just MO).

Our last litter we worked very hard socialising our pups - bringing people of all ages in, playing sounds all damn day from youtube, wearing silly hats, walking sticks , cones and bikes on the patio and every single pup was well rounded and lovely - yet the one we kept is slightly wary, very clingy. For a while we were devestated - thought what on earth went wrong?? until we spoke to others who said they often found this with the pup that stays with you.

Can't say I have ever found this all my lot are very outgoing.

I can vouch that brainless dogs were very outgoing but then maybe thats because she is too :) when I met them they were a very friendly trio.

The ones I keep from a litter are outgoing, friendly, showy and sound. Otherwise I wouldn't have kept them :-)

and one of the trio was 6 months and a day old at her first show.

I've only had two litters and kept one puppy from each - dog the first time, bitch the second.

From the first litter, mum played with the dog puppy a lot and I felt taught him a lot of dog matters on how hard to play etc. We also made a point of taking him out on his own (so he didn't rely on the others all time) for walks and training (classes and out in park etc). We varied taking other dogs with him to help train certain aspects. he is a really well adjusted nearly three year old.

From the second litter, mum wasn't that interested in playing with the bitch we kept, but the dog puppy from the previous litter (who was 23 months by the time she was 8 weeks) took over the role and played with her just the way his mum played with him. The dynamics are very interesting to watch. Sometimes mum joins in. Puppy is now 13 months, we also did the same training and socialisation as used previously, and she too seems very well adjusted so far.

There doesn't seem to be any difference with their litter mates either.

Only my limited experience.