Hi,
I am just wondering, in all honesty, those of us with breeds that were originally created to do a job, how much consideration do you give to this "ability" when making breeding decisions? I am speaking, of course, to those of us who are primarily interested in the show ring.
It just seems that "instinct" and "ability" get a lot of lip service, but do they really turn the tide when choosing a mate? Or, in reality, are our dogs ALL bred as companions mostly now? And is this all well and good or not? How far do we go to preserve a "working instinct/ability" in dogs that will probably never need to use them?
TiaLee

I must say that personally I look for the natural instinct/ability that my breed was intended for. I look for mates that are suitable not only in pedigree but also in working ability. I raise Australian Shepherds, and since we have cattle I can take them out and see them 'work their stuff'. I must admit though I am not involved in the show world at this time. However if I do get that opertunity I will not change my practices. I think that a dog can be a loving companion as well as a contributing member of the family. JMHO
QT

QT,
I know that my grandfather-in-law and his sons had the same considerations for Brittanys when they were raising them 1940s-1980s. Appearance had less importance than the desire to fulfill---- "could the dog hunt and be the all around jock that Britts are" ;)
And that's why working Brittanys are much different than what appear in the ring. Which is ok in my mind. Not everyone wants/needs a strong instinct driven dog in their lives :)

I don't think for one minute that a dogs NATURAL ability and breed characteristics should be ignored. Why should we breed dogs that can stand four square, trot up and down a ring, but do nothing else ? We have destroyed a lot of what dogs stand for already, by way of health etc.. lets keep their original purposes at the front, not bury them along with every other thing we don't "need" for the show ring.
Dawn.

IMO breeding with the original purpose in mind is the only way to stop desirable features becoming overdone. For instance a strong head becomes heavy and out of proportion to the rest of the dog, thick coat - starts to resemble candyfloss, well coated and the dog is triping over it. I wont go on but if the breeders keep the original purpose in mind they will not start to breed for a particular feature at the expence of the caracteristics of the breed. No breed, not just working dogs, should be changed to such an extent that they could no longer fulfill that purpose. Toys that are too big to pick up or too small to live a long life. Gundogs that have been 'improved' to be more use as draft stoppers at the door, than in the field. Pastral dog who would run a mile if a cow looked at them or get soaking wet in the rain. Sure you get the idea.

I know some breeds have been changed so much, that if one did not know their original purpose it would be difficult to guess and there is probable little point in trying to change the breeds back, and I am all for changing if the change improves the dogs health or comfort. That said I am glad that my breed is, in most cases, bred with its original job in mind, we have strayed away on occasion but usualy find the way back. So we are able to have judges from our hounds country of origin and they are in most part, pleased with what they see.

It is difficult to expect a breeder to stick to the original blue print when dogs who are not to the standard, but are eye catching in a non-breed way, are winning in the ring, and I think that this is something that judges should always bear in mind as in some cases they are or can be responsable for the strange things that become fashion both in the conformation and the handling of some breeds. Ja:)kie

I always wondered about my dogs abililties until about 3 years ago we (like many others) suddenly had a plague of rats. There are always the odd ones around very rural properties and our elderly cat occasionally kindly deposited the odd one on the doorstep - yuk. But this particular year it was like something out of a Walt Disney movie. We found a nest and got two of the Westies , who dealt with them in double quick time - I couldn't believe my eyes! They were so efficient and knew exactly how to dispatch them even though Pippa was 5 or so and had to my knowledge never caught anything in her life before - it was like she had done it every day of her life. I let all the others have a go and although one tried to catch one by the tail all the others did the job. As they are all show bred by Ch this and that, I wonder how many generations it had been since they were used for ratting. Apologies if this has upset any rat lovers. Interstingly the best ratter (Pippa) is the quietest and least bold dog of all of them. They say its the quiet ones you have to watch! Would this be considered illegal now - me putting two dogs onto a "small mammal" on purpose? Oh yes nearly forgot. A client had come to collect a 12 week puppy and seeing that she had somethingin her mouth thought I'd demonstrate the correct way to get a puppy to "give" - I thought she had a little root or twig in her mouth as the litter was playing in the garden. I took hold of the tip of the "twig", opened her mouth and lo and behold there was a mouse, I was holding the tip of its tail. I was so surprised I nearly dropped it and the poor puppy buyer shreiked and ran for cover!! What a clever girl.

OK, this is completely against what all the other respondents have said, but we are breeding show dogs, not working gundogs (very, very few American Cockers go into the field) we therfore do not give any though to the working abilities of our bitches or potential stud dogs. Of course, we give much thought to soundness both of form and temperament, and an excellendt mouth is essential. Beyond that working ability or lack of it simply does not come into our plans. Currently in the UK there is only 1 kennel of working American Cockers, perhaps 1 or 2 others have done a little field training (I know of 1 dog who went out for at least 1 day) however, and the kennel who does work the dogs has 1 or 2 by Dexter, my boy. However, they go for a totally different type from us - this is nothing to do with working instinct, they just prefer a slightly more hold fashioned, heavier type, with a less refined head. This type occurs frequently in a lot of lines, and they buy pups which fit their "pattern", therefore breed that type too.

On the plus side, our gang are all expert, natural "fetchers" (the solid colours probably more so than the partis) so something of the instinct remains. I know in the UK "Yankees" have a bit of a reputation for brainless beauty, but when in the USA at the "Nationals" I never cease to be amazed at their ability in obedience tests. Last year at the summer national in Mass. there was a field day organised, with working tests etc, but it clashed with some puppy classes we particularly wanted to see.

I don't show because I choose to have working type springers (that can hold there own in an agility ring) if working ability wasn't ignored then I could show as well. As it is, to say I'd look ridiculous in the show ring with my little springer is an under statement! If working ability was at the fore they wouldn't be almost two different breeds both in temperament and looks. Just MHO.

A lot of breeds ARE two different types of dogs, like Labradors, Springers, Cockers, Huskies etc... distinct difference in the look of the working/showing types. All pedigree dogs were developed for a specific purpose, we should stick to that purpose and not breed dogs that just look pretty.
Dawn.

***A lot of breeds ARE two different types of dogs, like Labradors, Springers, Cockers, Huskies****

Hmm, what shall I tell the 5 Champion Huskies Dave & I trained between us this morning :D
The Siberian Husky is not a split breed in this Country and long may that continue ;-)

I think there is a distinct difference Sarah. Many of the Huskies you see in the ring are so thin its incredible, and their coats are pathetic, I am not saying all are the same, but when my friend had her first Husky she was a far cry from what many are like today, and she did considerable winning. I think according to countries they are split too, the American imports are very different to our dogs, their coats particularly. A few years ago, I was at the Cannock Chase thingy, and a number of people with Huskies commented on how "thin" they were becoming and subtance was being replaced by a far leaner specimen, supposedly better for racing, I do feel this is the case, maybe we disagree but then life would be boring if we all had the same opinions.
Dawn.

Hi Dawn

I have answered a couple of your points also in my reply to Jackie, I agree that the USA has a real breed split, I hold that over here we still don't though sadly not for want of some people trying:-( The SHCGB has an annual dual champion award for the dog who has best show/working results to stress the importance of this ability.

Cannock Chase with vans full of Sibes would have been a sight to behold warts an' all :D The timing (Feb?) would have nicely coincided with every dog dropping their coat ready for Crufts, plus of course all the dogs that don't make the show grade for their owners, or belong to people who realise that showing is just a good way of blowing money would be there in lovely lean working condition.

I think you are also right that some coats aren't what they were, but careful breeding can bring this back, what is sadder in my opinion in the ring today are the construction faults, both through the shoulders and the croup/tail, which will be nightmares to breed out (and then only if people are clever enough :-()

It always fascinates me no one talks about the weight of many hound breeds, whilst a Sibe will run whilst also having to pull a load. I'll bet Sam doesn't have any spare weight on her hounds in the middle of their working season?

I don't mind agreeing or disagreeing :D as long as it makes for interesting discussion, out of interest who was your friend & what was their dogs name?

Hi Sarah.

Can't tell you the dogs name off hand, but when I see my friend again, I will get the details from her. It was her first Husky and although she qualified for Crufts a couple of times, with her job involving horses, she was somewhat limited to when she could show, for that reason she did many more open shows than champ ones.

I don't know about dogs "dropping their coats for Crufts" I don't think dogs know when crufts is, nor whether they can shed coats to order, however I agree that some of them may have been. I also agree that conformation is more important than coat, especially when the dogs are living here rather than their native countries.

When you talk about "working seasons" and dogs carrying extra weight outside of these seasons, this is something I loath. I work extra hard to keep my dogs fit during the summer, just so they will be ready to work the winter, although Terrier work can really be at any time depending on what it is.

The original string was should dogs be able to do the job they were bred for, I think we both agree they should, thats got to be a good start.
Dawn.

**I don't know about dogs "dropping their coats for Crufts" I don't think dogs know when crufts is, nor whether they can shed coats to order, **

Hi Dawn

It was always just a joke in Sibes that when we finally had a 'Winter' Show when they should be in full coat (their Summer full coat is never as plush as their winter one), they would blow just in time...of course they didn't know :D. Thankfully now we have LKA plus also Manchester in Feb.

As the topic was breeding for ability, then I am sure you realise I am fully in favour of this On a more controversial note, the Newfie that has done sooo well recently is a fine looking fellow, I wonder though his ability to maintain the working aspect as there is just such a lot of him if you see what I mean

Sorry pardon Sarah !!:D :D

Know what you mean about the Newfie though !
Dawn.

the huskies may not have an official split, but theres definitley 2 types appearing, --the racey lean type and the american heavy built plush coated type, normally a shade shorter in leg-!!!

Hi Dizzy

Yep there are definately different types, in fact rather a lot in Sibes! The art as a judge is imo to pick the best standard fitting examples regardless of type :D but sadly that doesn't always happen and a poor specimen of a type the judge likes is placed above a good example of a different type. Surely though there are types within Shar Pei's?

The Standard for Sibes is reasonably comprehensive and when the chest is deeper than the legs are long, then it doesn't fit the standard, then also when the outline becomes square due to leg then that too is not good.

sara --if we only had 2 types in pei we'd be lucky! :D----we have 2 coat types , and although they have the same breed standard they look fairly different, also as in many breeds we have been americanised , some prefer it, others hate it, -my opinion on them is the american ones are better constructed than the older type of pei, i suppose its each to their own, however i have to agree about seeing some sibes with very deep bodies and not a lot of outline!!-

here here, good sound post, regards tina

Well, I'm in Irish Wolfhounds so obviously they were originally bred for hunting Wolves. ;)
They haven't hunted Wolves for centuries, but I think that these *instincts* lie v.close to the surface still. Watching them gallop free they often *play* hunt each other by closing in on the side and pulling slightly ahead to get their jaws around the neck to bring it down. :)
I feel that the vast majority of modern *show* Wolfies WOULD be able to hunt a bring down large prey, and IMHO if they are not fit enough or well muscled enough to endure a long chase then they shouldn't be in the ring anyway!
Nicky

well my hounds have to be able to hunt AND win in the ring......I wouldn't contemplate breeding from a hound that couldn't hunt.

No, Sam, by the same token, I would never consider using a Flatcoat who wasn't capable of a good day's work in the field, however gorgeous it looked.

Suppose we're lucky that our breed isn't split - yet - though some lines are better workers than others.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

As far as I have observed, it would appear to me that all dogs have some natural instinct. So I should think that most could be trained to a reasonable standard given that the owner had the time, money, talent and interest to pursue the goal. My own interest lies in showing so I'd rather find a stunning specimen to breed my bitch to. Each to their own. However I wouldn't dream of standing in the showring with an unfit,poorly muscled gundog.Can I just say that given the training, a showdog could work, could a worker win in the ring?

Not in this country, because we don't have Elk and if we did I don't think we would be allowed, but in their country of origin they are not even considered for an award in the show ring until they have proved themselves working in the forest tracking and holding at bay their prey, or rather our prey, Elkhounds do not attack the Elk but hold at bay and shout for the guns. Hunting of Elk in Norway is for a very limited time so I think most hounds qualify at trials. Jackie

I thank everyone for their opinions!
That being said, it seems most respondents have some sort of hunting/sporting breed. I am afraid that even if I had such a breed, I would NOT want to hunt-ever- and many of them seem to be so wonderful in other respects. Of course, we have probably all known a retriever that simply would not let you alone with his slimey tennis ball/pine cone/stick. That can get old fast.
I know that a lot of folks worry about a "split" in their breed, or that they will really become two different breeds. Personally, I do not see what the worry is. As one person said, "each to his own".
Is the world really in danger of waking up and not being able to find a dog to hunt/herd/guard with? How many dogs are "disposed of" because their owners cannot deal with their temperament? From what I hear, working ability(in whatever venue) and a "livable" temperament do not always go hand in hand.
I think that it is a noble effort to consider, at least, the dog BREED's original purpose, but how much weight should we give it? This, no doubt, would vary with breed.
But, if we all held true to this, we certainly would not still have our "bully" breeds, would we? Or Wolfhounds, as one said. As far as terriers and rodents- I have seen Shelties, Border Collies and Malamutes that were excellent "ratters".
I really don't know. I do know that if we all breed for our own purposes, we will maintain better genetic diversity in our breeds. So, perhaps it is a good thing-the best thing! If only we could reconcile ourselves to it and stop the "right and wrong" war.
I suppose that I am over sensitive to this since I have Border Collies and live in the USA. I do not do stock work with my dogs. I have "played about" with it and like to at least take them to stock once or twice to get an inkling, but that is not what most people would consider "breeding to their original purpose."
Bottom line, I wonder how many people, even if they could, would go for both. I wonder then, what greater(in my opinion) percentage would change nothing, even if the opportunity arose.
Thanks again. Definite food for thought.... TiaLee

Good point Tialee.

Each person looks at a dog in a different way. Myself, if the dog doesn't turn out good enough to show, I wouldn't dream of parting with it or passing it on, loads of people do, and thats their choice, me, I couldn't. I have a dog who is 9yrs old now, at 11 months he broke 2 teeth, short show career over!! but he is an excellent worker and a wonderful companion, how many people would have got rid of him to make room for another one ? it's just everyones personal preference.

I don't think its right to have dogs bred for beauty and not brains. If we had pedigree dogs all bred to be polite, well mannered show animals, what would be the point of individual breeds ? No breed characteristics, no breeds!!
Dawn.

hi, all ped dogs were bred for a reason, to assist man ,to work,there breed standards set, if the dog is bred as close to the standard as possible it should be able to carry out the job it was bred for, if my whippets had to be so called "trained" to catch, chase prey i would consider that dog not to be the breed standard, regardless of construction,this is how i feel about my breed, they should be bred to enter the ring and do the job they were bred for.if i wanted a companion dog i would have a mongerel, regards tina

Tina, I agree with what you say that a hound should still have the instinct to hunt but I also feel that they should still have the conformation to follow that instinct, and a coat that made the work possible. Jackie

hi jackie h,
after re- reading my post"regardless of conformation" don't know why i put that in was rushing i think,conformation being the main issue, re- ability to do the job it was bred for and understand and agree with your point on "coats", regards tina

Hi Tina
Toatally agree with you. Whippets should look as though they can do the job they were meant for and not look as though they spend all day sat in the chair by the fire. I know our lot love to put up a rabbit or hare when Im out in the fields with them, to see them at full stretch doing what they love to do is a truley magnificent sight.
BTW What breeding are your whippets?

hi longdog,
my bitch is out of silkstone and fullerton and i have in partnership a oakbark dog, regards tina

Just another thought, I have pugs too, whose original purpose was (and is) as lap dogs. Sitting here typing I have Puglet on my lap, Shirley on the arm of the sofa snuggled up behind me - no training needed, lap instincts inbred and perfectly developed in all pugs at all times:) ;)
Gwen

At least a working dog is judged on its ability, in the show ring it is more likely depending on how well you know the judge.

Hi, Dudley, that sounds a bit like sour grapes! Some of us are attempting to breed show dogs, for the show ring, and as a 'side efffect' also producing excellent family pets. I like to think our dogs win in the ring through expectionally careful breeding, with a long term plan in mind, ruthless selection based on health tests, honest evaluation of our show and breeding stock, and then perfect presentation and superb handling (with thanks to my partner for these last 2). Whatever you show, be it dogs, horses, budgies or leeks, you are submitting yourself for another persons opinion. I respect people rights and wishes to work and trial there dogs, perhaps you can respect mine to show and not work. Of course, only 1 of my breeds works anyway. The pugs fulfill there function for show or pet perfectly anyway.:)
Gwen

sam my words exactly,regards tina

Sarah, there was a time when I was interested in owning Sibes. but was put off by what I saw in the show ring. I had taken to the working type and found the show ring dogs very light boned and very thin. Think things have improved now and some better built dogs are winning. As some one in the breed have you any idea why the fashion for lightweight show dogs became so popular during the mid 90's. Was it because a good winning dog was built thus or do you think it was some other reason. Jackie

Hi Jackie

Sorry for the delay in replying. I don't know if you have ever visited this site http://www.siberianchamps.org.uk/ but it shows all the Sibe Champs since we got tickets, with the exception of most of this years as she is having difficulties with the site :-(. Having looked back I don't really feel the top class winners have changed all that much, but I would shed some personal comments on the goings on in the show ring.

Firstly you confuse me with your comment that you had taken to the working type and found the show type light boned and thin, this is actually the reverse of the usual comments made

However, let me ramble for a while :D. The majority of Sibes shown in this country are also worked, in the early to mid 90's two major American working lines were introduced which were very slow maturing, certain lines already here are also slow to come on. This can lead to dogs not totally looking the part from outside the ring, however if the construction and movement are still there then the body gets there eventually. Any Sibe that looks the part as a puppy is almost sure to go over by the time it is 2. This is also proven out by the fact that Sibes can and do still take tickets from Veteran classes, they really don't age as many other breeds do.

Another major fault we have is that as a young (25 years) breed to this Country, there are not many major kennels and it's a case to often of anything goes when breeding. People then don't assess quality and dogs that really a breeder should pay the owner to keep out of the ring :D sadly are shown. Therefore (and this is happening a lot at the moment) although dogs are winning, it is often in the lower & mid classes as the best of a bad bunch, perhaps this was happening then to?

In the last 5 years we have again seen changes on the show/working front as various people have moved in on the breed with only showing in mind and have brought in & bred on to American Show type. As we all know the USA show scene is completely different to ours and there is true split out there with the working people not even bothering to waste money on showing. This is a great pity & is what we constantly fight against in this Country, wanting to maintain a true dual purpose dog. For some reason people, including judges who have never been behind a working team, look at a heavy set, barrel chested dog & comment, 'looks like it could work all day'. Hmm, bare in mind that the ideal Sibe will cover the most amount of distance with the least amount of effort, it is fundamentally the racing car of the Sled dogs, not the 4 wheel drive. Often the American Show dogs have what is called a flying trot (imagine a fairground carousel and you have the movement), however they are often chocolate box pretty and when judged by a certain circle are guaranteed to win, perhaps it is because you have seen a number of pictures in the dog press recently that you feel the breed has changed again? If so that is a pity.

Any research back to the start of the Siberian Husky as a known breed just before WW1 will show dogs of a type to be found in the UK still today, many people are justifiably proud of this fact, it is difficult though when held against the USA show scene.

Another good thing that has come about in the last possibly 10 years is that the standard of presentation has raised enormously too, it is now rare to find dirty dogs in the ring and I think this and the fact that the Show people try harder now has altered the look without necessarily altering the dog.

Don't know if this has helped or hindered :-)

Having been lucky enough to visit a couple of the very best working Siberian kennels in both Alaska & Finland this year. I can assure you that the dogs that most of the reputable breeders over here are breeding would fit very well in these kennels. We try very hard to maintain the working ability of the breed, as well as striving to keep to the breed standard. It is very sad that not everbody in this breed trys to do the same!. A little knoledge is a dangerous thing as they say.

Hi Sarah, thanks for your detailed reply, I'm sure you are correct and I had formed my views on a few dogs that I was able to go over. I had access to only two dogs that I would have considered "working" in that they were used to pull a wheeled cart by their owner. They were both well boned & in hard condision. Fell for these dogs and went to Crufts to take a look at what was in the ring and to see which of the breeders I wished to contact with a view to having a puppy. In my post I said mid 90's it was infact mid 80's, how time flys. Anyhow having watched the dogs in the ring I approached the handlers of the dogs I liked the look of and asked to go over them, to my shock I found them to be different dogs to the ones I knew, it could have been that the two I knew were not typical or that the ones I liked in the ring were not good examples.
Having read your post I will not comment in the future - but must say now the best movement I have ever seen in the ring was a Siberian veteran. Ja:)kie

Oh Ja:-)kie please do still feel free to comment I personally always like your posts, on whatever subjects, even those close to my heart :p

Mid 80's, just think, if you'd gone for the breed you could have been a breed elder by now :D.

I think Veteran Sibes are fabulous, they have calmed eventually, appreciate a day out, know the score and do it sooo well, their bodies are finished, their fitness built over years & years, their coats are fab and they often don't age through their faces. If only it wasn't so expensive to enter Champ Shows with them, although more people seem to be going out in Veteran Classes at Open Shows nowadays. Plus of course many are still run in harness up to 12 ish, but not so competitevly, it is usually the dogs choice

Wasn't having a sulk Sarah, it was just that I realised I was baseing my comment on, at most a dozen dogs, and it is not fair to your breed for me to do that. Will make a point at having a better look next year - dont often see working breeds as I now in hounds - wonder why they are Elkhounds!
Ja:)kie

Bring on the SPITZ Group I say I'll try and look you up when I'm out with the Monsterlander, as some Champs have Gundog/Hound together...better still where in the Country are you (just general), I'll give you the date of our nearest race!

South Lincs. are you going to the Nordic Show, I'll be there and I hope it will be my chance to catch up on todays Sibs. Ja:)kie

No won't be at the Nordic, it was fine when it was in August but we would rather race than show :-) And November is working season. Pete Steffans is the judge though, so hopefully he has pulled a fair entry and you can take a peak and let us know :D.

We race at Fineshades Top Lodge 21/22 December (near Stamford), Clipstone (near Ollerton) 5 January and Grimsthorpe Castle 16/17 February, yell if you'd like more info on any of these

Thanks for the info, if I get a chance I'll pop along and see whats at the Nordic, but as you say because it is into the racing season perhaps the true dule purpose dogs wont be there. Will check out the dates you have given me and see if I can get to one, are spectators welcome?
Ja:)kie

Jackie, bit off topic, but 'bone' is yet another of my hobby horses :-(. Many people in IWs/deerhounds anyway think that a 'lot of bone' is essential because 'thin' bones break too easily (I won't even start on round bone, oval bone, bladed bone <groan>). Of course its true to a degree - if I went right off my trolley I could probably snap old Storm sheltie's foreleg with my hands, but would have to take an axe to Lewis wolfhound to do the same thing. But bone strength depends on far more than just thickness and calculating the 'breakability' of bone is horrendously complicated even with NMR scans never mind X-rays. Sometimes thick bone can actually be more liable to fracture than finer but better constructed bone. I'm not asking Judges or breeders to throw away the standard if it asks for substantial bone, but I wish more would try to appreciate the anatomy and physiology and maybe think just a wee bit about whether very 'heavy' bone is always desirable.

There is a long standing argument going amoungst bull breed people - should Staffords, etc still retain the attributes that were prized for their original purpose... natural instinct and ability amoungst these breeds = bull bating and pit fighting! So, as most of you seem to agree that dogs should retain their original instincts for what they were breed for even if they do not actually work - what is you opinion on the bull breeds - staffords in particular? Certain people are pushing for the "old type" stafford that is longer in the head and leg, and leaner body and prized for their gameness... It may fit with original type (way back when) but what does it mean to the stafford as a pet????

Shouldn't make a scrap of difference to Staffs as pets, they were never developed to bite people. Most Staffs still retain their gameness and are ready for a fight at the first instant and I don't see many people trying to deter it at shows either ! Most of the Staffs I board are fine with people, but would pick a fight with another dog given the chance.
Dawn.

Hello Cleopatra
Ive got two ISBTs (old type staffs). I find them to be very similar natured to the APBT. Very laid back. In my experience the uk staff is more likely to fight with another dog than the ISBT or APBT, (unless of course the latter is owned by a moron who brought it up to fight.) The uk staff is now not bread for gameness and the APBT or ISBTs are. Ihave owned the three breeds and none of them are prone to attacking anything/body/animal if properly socialised. If I have to pick the one that I think would be quickest to temper I would have to pick the uk staff.
I think that dogs largely retain their original attributes anyway. Breeding for show in staffs has just made them less able to utilise these attributes as the show types are not usually fit enough. The game bred dogs that I have owned are great natured around the home, the same way as game bred lurchers etc are good natured.
Do the game bred bull breeds make good pets?. Yes. I think so, they have for me. Mines have lived in perfect harmony with, hamsters/rats/cats/dogs/sheep/cows/and loads of kids about.
Should they still retain the original attributes they were first bred for?. Yes. I think they should.

Regards Mick.

Hello Tia lee
First off. Good Post.
I have two pups at the moment, and all being well as they develop and grow, I would like to breed. They both have exellent bloodlines and are bred of "game bred stock." I always say that in my breed of dog (bull terriers) I am not that interested in gameness. However, if I am honest I got both my dogs from "game bred stock" as I want to breed, and wanted the best specimens I could get. When it comes to my own (if I breed) pups, I am not that bothered about gameness. (all bull terriers are usually game enough for normal people anyway) Only healthy fit mentally well balanced good quality dogs. Because I am never going to use the true potential of my dogs, (pit fighting/badger baiting/hunting) as they are my companions. For this reason, I did'nt pick the dogs that appeared to be the gamest of the litters my dogs came from. I picked bright/happy/confident/freindly dogs.
So I suppose I did give the dogs original ability a lot of consideration, but not because its original ability is that important to me, only because my main concern was well bred healthy pups, not what they look like, or how dangerous it can be.
Regards Mick