I have a 2 ½ yr old bitch, who has been shown from 6 months. She has shown no issues with being in the ring, round people/other dogs, show environment or judges going over her. Has won consistently at a high level, but unfortunately has had to have both cruciate ligaments repaired, and so has been out of the ring for approx 6 months.

Since starting 'rehabilitation' process, I was conscious of not being able to take her to places to socialise her, where she would not get too excited as I did not want her to be putting too much pressure on her back legs, plus with cruciate repair rehab, we were advised for very short periods of activity anyway. So really the only interaction she got with people was when we were taking her to the vets.

I have been practising at home with her standing, and teeth, getting my partner to go over her during this 'rehab' period, and I have started entering her at some shows now (all with the OK of my vet and permission from the KC) At her first show, she was very very excitable, (she has a huge amount of energy anyway) and I wasn't too bothered about this, but when the judge went over her, as he took his hands away from looking at her mouth, she turned her head very quickly and snapped at his hand ( she did not catch him that I saw). I apologised profusely and offered to leave the ring, but he said no problem and carried on. He went over her and she didn't budge, although I held her quite firmly, just in case. After she had been in the ring, I asked another male to go over her, no problem at all, so I put it down to her first time back in the ring, and although not happy with it, hoped it would be a one off. She went to another show the next day, where before I had decided whether or not to put her in the ring, I asked several people to go over her, again no problem, and so making the decision to show her. In the ring there was no problem, infact she was given BOB that day.

I then took her to a Champ show, and she was highly excitable, but under control, and the judge was able to look in her mouth with no issues, and went over her with no issues. Infact she seemed to really enjoy herself. I thought I had cracked it, as we are constantly looking in her mouth and going over her. BUT at her next champ show, she did exactly what she did at her first show, again she did not catch the judge , and stood absolutely fine when being gone over (again I kept a good hold of the collar and kept some food in her mouth just in case) but I feel such a failure that it's happened again. It's such a quick reaction, and she shows no warning when she's about to do it. We are trying to keep her as socialised as possible, but I think she's associating judges going over her with how the vets went over her, as she did snap a couple of times at them when they were manipulating her knee joints during the problems we had with her cruciates

Has anyone else had this problem? I'm reluctant to withdraw her from the ring, as I think she may think that she can get away with this type of behaviour in the future if/when she goes back in the ring. She has another champ show coming up in the near future, so I'm thinking of taking her, getting people I know & trust to go over her and again making my decision whether to show her or not depending on her behaviour with people looking in her mouth. That said though, she could be fine with people outside of the ring, but could still be funny when the judge looks at her....

I have thought about going back to ringcraft, but at my local ringcraft, the people who run it only have small table dogs, and IMO are not experienced enough with medium/larger breed dogs or dogs that need a little bit of re-training, so I really need to find a ringcraft with these people who run it, which I am trying to find

Any advice or suggestions?

Would it be worth mentioning the problem with her ligaments to the judge before going over, the fact that it is not all the time makes me wonder if some judges are a bit firmer than others and if it is a bit uncomfortable for her. 

The problem is when the judges are looking at her mouth and when they take their hand away, she's fine when being gone over the rest of her body. It may be that there are some firmer than others, and she is reacting to that though

Can you think of any think that could link the judges she has snapped at, e.g. male, female, short tall ext. It could be a certain type she is funny with.

If she only does it when they pull there had away from her mouth may be worth you showing the judge her teeth for a while. I'd defernatly take her to ring craft

Have you had permission to show her post surgeries?

If you read the post correctly it states KC PERMISSION

Agree Jo, simple to cure that one show the bite/mouth yourself and problem solved, good luck with her.

To be honest I prefer the handler to show the bite as it means you can concentrate on what you are looking for rather than if the dog is comfortable with the way you are lifting the lips and lets face it all judges do it differently it can't be a nice experience for the dog even if they do tolerate it.

To be honest I prefer the handler to show the bite as it means you can concentrate on what you are looking for

Not to mention the huge risk of passing disease from one dog to another! I have never understood how dog judges can be allowed to open mouth after mouth. At cat shows the judges MUST disinfect their hands in between each cat. It's a win/win situation for the handler to show the bite.

Is she trying to grab the judge with her mouth? Rather than bite, does seen more to be the case as she's standing still you say and just turning her head.
When the judge moves away could you hold her cheek so she is unable to so this?
Have you had many different types of people at shows who she doesn't know go over her as a judge would. Just thinking she would be more comfortable with familiarity..

Thankyou all for your comments so far. It is possible she isn't trying to bite at the judges hand, but to 'grab' it, as she is a 'mouthy' dog anyway at home (although she knows not to!) As she hasn't actually caught anyone... yet, I'm going to assume she is trying to snap at the hand as it is being withdrawn from the mouth area to go go over her and down her body, as the actual movement is very fast as if she is going to bite it

Both times she has turned as the judge has taken their hands away from her mouth, it has been once when I have have shown the teeth, and once when they have looked at her teeth, both with a man (quite tall) and a woman (quite small & gentle demeanor)

For the last two days, both myself & my partner have been constantly looking in her mouth, showing her teeth to each other, and showing them ourselves, all the while praising her when she stays calm and doesn't move her head. I know she knows us, so probably won't act how she has done, but it's a start..

I will be taking her to ringcraft tonight, I don't have a huge amount of faith in the people who run it, but I know there are people there (who go with their dogs) who do judge who I can ask to look at her mouth, and we'll take it from there

My plan of action is to show the teeth my self, but show the sides first, then the bite, as I can then keep a hand on the side of her mouth so she can't turn her head, plus I can then get a nice bit of cheese/meat in her gob asap to keep her looking forward, what do you think?

I will also be taking her to a show at the weekend, and asking people I know and trust to look at her mouth, like I said, she's fine with people going over her from her head to her tail, it's just this mouth issue :-(

Just tell the judge you wish to show the mouth and then hang on to it until you are confident, once you are confident you will probably find she is as well.

My plan of action is to show the teeth my self, but show the sides first, then the bite, as I can then keep a hand on the side of her mouth so she can't turn her head, plus I can then get a nice bit of cheese/meat in her gob asap to keep her looking forward, what do you think?

We have a dog like this and this is pretty much what my husband is doing -ask to show the teeth himself (again it's only teeth) and then he clamps his hand over her mouth so she can't turn. She even won RCC at Crufts that way. The rest of the time she is happy and wagging her tail. Everyone kept saying it was because she was due in season as she hadn't been this way before. Took 8 months before she came in so we had a couple of months like this, she's in season now and it's going to be very interesting to see what she is like after her season.

Thanks Nova & Goldmali, she's got a good temperament, although typical for the breed, so can at times be standoffish at times, but she wags her tail when standing up and loves running round the ring. She is a show off! She had her last season 4 months ago, and I'm not expecting her to come in now till around September, so I've ruled hormonal issues out

Goldmali, when your hubby clamps his hand over her mouth, does he put his palm over the top of her muzzle, so his fingers are pointing downwards? just trying to work out the easiest way of showing teeth then holding her mouth so there is NO chance of her turning

Thumb on top fingers underneath when he is restraining her -which is how we do it at the vets. (She hates the vet!) I should perhaps point out that once that's done, she doesn't even try to turn her head -and of course she is a breed with a fine muzzle so easy to circle it. :)

Thanks, will be practising this afternoon on the logisitics and will try it out at ringcraft, wish us luck!! will let you know how we get on

The only time my Lola got cramp she actively turned and grabbed my hand really quick to pull it away when I tried to touch the affected leg.  I thought she was trying to bite until she actually got hold of me I think she is anticipating pain and trying to intercept it.  I would be thinking about trying to get volunteers (ringcraft or whatever) to just look at teeth then treat and/or to go over her without looking at teeth and see how she reacts and work on that as a long term thing and go with the advise about showing the bite for the short term.

We had people looking at bite etc at training and in our dog's case it had the opposite effect as she started growling to really tell us she was not happy with somebody else looking at her teeth.

It helps to have your right hand under her chin if the judge is going to open her mouth and then you can move it quickly over her muzzle before she can move.

I don't know if you've seen me do it with mine? She has a habit of turning to watch the judge and this moving her whole body so I either hold the muzzle in place or the fleshy part of the cheek depending on handling style that day..

Hope you can overcome this with her x

Well, we took her to ringcraft, she was quite excitable, and I asked a couple of people if i could show them her teeth, which I did. She was OK, however I could see she was looking quite wary when they put their hands towards her mouth. So I left it at that and took her into the class, & explained to the trainer that she seemed to be wary of having her teeth looked at, so I showed them myself, and she was OK, the trainer didn't put any hands near her mouth but did look in her mouth (so her head was fairly close to my dog IYSWIM) and she was OK, did a triangle, and i showed the teeth again, and then asked her to look in my dogs mouth, I was a bit worried, but although she didn't look too much in her mouth, she didn't turn her head, but did fidget a bit and try to pull away, so not brilliant, but better than I was expecting. If anything I was a bag of nerves, which I know does not help at all :-( guess we both need some confidence building

We're entered at a show on saturday, and there's a local companion show on in the next village to us Sunday. So we'll go on saturday and ask a few people to go over her (make a decison whether to show her on the day) and use the Sunday as another ringcraft session I think

Maybe a visit to the vet is needed as there maybe something that you can't see.  Is there a puppy tooth still somewhere sticking out?

A vet check will never hurt but I think as she has had a GA the experience of having tubes inserted and removed has probably made her very conscious of her mouth and so she is just not happy with a stranger trying to touch her near her mouth.

Personally I would not let anyone touch her mouth but always show it myself, would enter the classes but not let anyone touch her mouth and continue with this for at least a year and accept that it will be for the whole of her showing career.

How did you get on at the show today with her?

We took her, but did not show her. She was a bit excitable and tbh nerves were getting the better of me :-( We showed her teeth to other people in the breed that we know, some that she knows and a couple she doesn't, she was OK, I could see she was a little wary but was OK, but for us, it was the right decision not to take her in the ring on saturday as our judge seemed quite 'hands on'. We went to a fun show yesterday for a few hours, and I did take her in a class, I could see her eyeing the judge as she approached, so I asked her if I could show her teeth, as she was playing up a bit, and she was OK, again keeping an eye on the judge till she'd got past her head, then she wasn't bothered at all :-) So just got to keep on practising I think

Take it at your own pace but don't ever let her think she has won, you show the teeth, just tell the judge no need to give a reason, "may I show the teeth or mouth" should get a nod, no need to say why, if asked why say reasons of health, if asked if she has a health problem say "no, but others may" OK the judge will think you over careful but so what.