Hi all

I'm new to the forum and this is my first post.

I have joined to get some valuable advice.

This is my first time breeding, my bitch is health tested, kc reg etc. I have a mentor that's great.

My first question is about colour genetics, my breed is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

No matter how much research I do I just cannot not get to grips with colours. I have potential owners asking what colours I hope to get. I have started a waiting list now and my bitch is due in season in may. I am breeding for health, temperament and type.

My bitch is black and white, her dam is black and her sire is white and brindle. the sire I have chosen is red, he's whole 5 gen ped is either red or red and white.

what colour pups am I likely to get?

I hope to stick around, I'm sure I'll have loads more q's. :)

Thanks

I'm not a breeder so can't help with your questions, and I certainly don't want to drive you away from the forum, so this is in no way meant aggressively, but are you aware of just what a huge problem there is with unwanted staffies? Every rescue is full of them and hundreds are being put to sleep because there aren't enough homes. I appreciate you are trying to do everything right with health testing etc. but I would ask you to seriously reconsider bringing more staffies into the world in the current climate.

Can't say more than you won't get brindle, one parent has to be brindle, it can't be carried.

Can your mentor not help with possible colours? Even when you know there is no guarantee you will get every option in a litter so prospective buyers will have to wait and see, they should be more concerned with temperament, structure and health, colour/pattern is a bonus.

> Every rescue is full of them and hundreds are being put to sleep because there aren't enough homes. I appreciate you are trying to do everything right with health testing etc. but I would ask you to seriously reconsider bringing more staffies into the world in the current climate.

But most rescues are full of badly bred or xbred staffies. the people who breed these are the ones who need to be discouraged, not people like the original poster who is doing her best to breed a healthy well planned litter. If good breeders give up because of the number of badly bred staffies then eventrually there will be no decent staffies left and people wanting a staffy will hasve no choice but to go to a poor breeder. People need to see the good to apreciate the difference.

> Can't say more than you won't get brindle, one parent has to be brindle, it can't be carried.

It's a little more complicated in Staffords, as many "blacks" are in fact extremely dark brindle. There are many who doubt that a gene for true solid black actually exists in Staffordshires. However, doing some digging, it is now thought that there are some, and they are the Dominant Black gene K which actually can 'carry' brindle k(br).

So, to the OP - if your bitch is a very dark brindle not genetically black, it's likely you will get some brindles in the litter to a red dog. I'm assuming he is red with/without a dark mask. He would be genotyped as kk/E(m)-  [with mask] or kk/E- [without], and she would be k(br)-/E-. If she has two Brindle genes then the whole litter may well be brindles, but may be of the very dark black sort like herself.

If your bitch is a dominant black K, then she will carry a brindle gene from her father, so she will be Kk(br)/E- or Kk(br)/E(m). The Red dog will be as above, so you will get some brindles, some dominant blacks with the possibility of some reds.

That wasn't an easy thing to work out, and I can't guarantee it will be correct - but compiled with the best and most up to date information I could find, which seems to be this Swedish site -http://staffegenetik.se/eng_genetics_coatcolor.htm

Thanks for the replies.

I have been on that website before and it is very confusing.

Would it be possible for my bitch to be K-Si?

She is definitely black with no brindling what so ever to be seen, she is also Irish marked, her face is half white and half black. both ears black, black body with white belly, legs, neck and a tip of white on the end of her tail.

How do I add a pic?

> Would it be possible for my bitch to be K-Si?

Yes she could be, but as her sire was Brindle, she would then be Kk(br)/Sisi, carrying a brindle gene.
Problem is, although she looks black, she might have a brindle bit hidden by her white markings, if that makes sense. If you look at the section on brindle on that site, there's a photo of a Black-brindle (ie very dark, black-looking) dog and a link beside it, which takes you to more photos of the same dog including one where it shows how you see faint brownish brindle stripes in good sunlight.

I didn't factor in the white pattern as it's fairly straighforward, crossing Si to a solid will give you roughly 50% Si and 50% solid.

Although I don't have Staffords, I have always wondered about whether true black does exist - When I lived in London a neighbour had two solid blacks which he used to show, and the male was the deepest black you could ever think of. He was out with this dog come rain or shine every day, a two mile roadwalk every morning, and practised ringcraft in the communal gardens every afternoon. Even in strong sunlight you couldn't see a hint of rust or brown in the dog's coat.

Pics aren't allowed on here, but if you upload your pics to your own webspace or something like Flickr or Photobucket, you can post the links.

OK, Thanks.

So she is Kk(br)/Sisi, I understand she could be carrying brindle under the white but she definitely has not a brown/rust/red hair on her. If she did have slight brindling like in that pic would she still be the same? I have added a pic of her on my avatar.

The sire is red with darker ears, tail and mask. Although he has a white stripe on hes nose. He also has a white chest and feet?

I have an apology to make, I didn't look at the section on white patterns very closely!

s(i) is recessive (that's why it's give a small s) to solid colour. So it very much depends on whether the sire of the litter carries s(i) or not, as to whether you will get more Irish pattern.

As with a lot of dog colour genetics, white patterns are not fully understood and are very much an ongoing project, with only a few breeds having had their white patterns defined by molecular testing.

The white the sire has may be down to s(i) but it could also be from other, unrelated, white pattern genes. Some are recessive, some are not, and in many breeds a little bit of white (feet, chest, sometimes also nose) is allowed.

Some white spotting genes in other species have variable expression, meaning you might get one without any white on the chest or toes but it still has the gene, you just can't see it, and will pass it on. Thankfully most dog breeds where these random white extras occur are fairly forgiving, as the dog can still work as well as one without... it's just cosmetic.

Sorry if this isn't giving you any clear answers, it's just that full understanding of dog colour genetics is relatively recent. Now, if you were asking about mouse, rat or rabbit colours, I could probably give you a much better reply ;)

I'm in my phone at the moment so will have to post in more detail tomorrow.

First things first though - it is genetically impossible to have a pure black Stafford.
You may not see brindling in the coat at all, there could be as few as one if two hairs but it is there.

Will post links re coat color when I'm back on the laptop.