I'm the owner of a toy breed stud, between Jan 29th - Feb 5th he mated with the bitch and got lengthy ties each time. No fee's for service as i've opted for one of the litter. on 20th of Feb the bitch's owner were concerned as her bitch was bleeding quite heavy for a few days so she took her to the vet and was given a scan. The vet had said she was definitely pregnant but was in the process of absorbing. Anyway fast forward to 17th March - this girl looks BIG! bottom breast developing and no longer able to jump the sofa unaided. Am i right in saying that Phantoms AFTER spontaneous abortion is very rare or impossible? Suggestions please :)

Phantoms can happen aftre any season, whether mated or not, and can certainly happen after abortion/resorption - the hormones are all over the place. However equally she might not have lost the whole litter and could still be pregnant. I'd be rather concerned at the lengthy mating period; possible pups could be due at any time from 2nd to 9th April, making an accurate due date very difficult to determine.

Couldn't they take her back for another scan? She sounds as though she could still be pregnant. Bleeding is not uncommon during pregnancy and bitches often go on to have puppies. We have a bitch who did this with both her litters and went on to have two average sized litters.

Thanks  Jeangenie & Esme, I'm aware that Phantoms can happen regardless of mating, i think i'm just ruling out possibilities. The vet did confirm her pregnancy and stated she was absorbing. Sounds like she's continued her pregnancy after all, a big surprise after the initial sad news. I have been to see the bitch and her owner again today and she looks to have swallowed a bowling ball :) Only 2 - 3 more weeks to go. Thanks again for your responses.

Can I ask a question if the mating on the 5th Feb was the one that was nearest the ovulation she may not have had eggs implant until two or three days later and if that is the case would the vet really be able to see the bitch was in whelp but reabsorbing 10 to 14 days later with a scan?

That was my first question when the bitches owner had told me this. Monday 25th is the correct date of the scan, i apologise i said 20th but it would still barely be enough time to give a solid diagnosis. I assume the bitch's owner is going back to the vet :)

>No fee's for service as i've opted for one of the litter.

I'm interested to know what happens if this bitch has one live pup?  Naturally the bitch owner would want to keep it.  Have you made provision for this in your stud contract?

I ask because in my toy breed, a stud fee is a quarter of the cost of a puppy.  I charge a low stud fee for my boys, as litter size is so small.

I had one bitch bleed heavily all the way through pregnancy, sometimes passing small clots of blood.  Vet told me the same, she was reabsorbing the litter, put her on Synulox, she continued bleeding but whelped 7 big healthy pups

Hi Jean, yes, If only 1 live pup then of course the bitch's owner will keep herself, i have no problems with that. We have the same toy breed as yourself and are very aware of small litters, her bitch is known for her big litters, 6 on the last litter, of course it's not always going to be same as the last and we know we could well end up with just one pup.

That's very reassuring Sharon, Thanks. The bitch had stopped bleeding not long after the vet visit, id say from what i know, she bled for about a week in total. She seems perfectly fine now, just a lot bigger and having a hard time getting comfortable.

My girl started to bleed 2 weeks after mating. I took her to the vet who though she may be losing the pups. She bled for several days. I took her back 2 weeks later for a scan and we could see 4 "blobs". She actually had 8 healthy puppies.

Well it's day 60-63, bitch is massive! Lots of Foetal movement :) Safe to say, vet was wrong. Anytime between now and Tuesday should have pups. :)

As has often be said, very few vets are experts in canine reproduction.

A GP vet has been trained to diagnose and treat illness.  considering the number of species they deal with, that's a tall order in itself.

What really bugs me is that so many of them will simply not acknowledge to their clients the fact they are not oracles.  Foreign vets in my own experience (especially New Zealand South African and Australian) seem far more modest and honest about not knowing something.

Barbara, slightly off topic but I was telling my vet about the woeful lack of GOOD repro vets in England and since she is now going solo with a brand new facility, she will look into the matter.
She's GOOD!

Now wouldn't that be useful?

Sure would, especially regarding importing fresh semen.

Excellent! :-)

Update: I attended a vet this morning with the bitch's owner regarding her pregnancy. As she was mated over a week, we was getting worried as to how long she may have gone over the usual gestation period, today being the final due date if she had taken on the last mating. Vet whipped out the scanner, ATLEAST 3 pups, all with great heartbeats, minimal fluid so whelping is imminent. She has for the past 2 days, been sick a few times, frothy is the only way to describe it. If all goes well, i'm a very happy granddad :)

1 BOY & 1 GIRL, both healthy and fantastic size :) Sadly lost the first born, a little girl.

Congratulations. sorry to hear about the one you lost. RIP

Congrats on the new arrivals. RIP little lady